Inconsistency w/Rifled Musket Accuracy

[stretchman25]

I have several questions that maybe someone can help me answer. I currently shoot an Armi Sport Zouve. I have not slugged the bore, so I do not know what its actual bore diameter is, but I shoot a .582 sized Rapine International cast of fairly pure lead. The .582 sized minie easily drops to the bottom of a clean barrel without the aid of the ramrod. When loaded with FF Goex or 11/2 F Swiss the rifle is doing well to hold a 12" 5 shot group at 100 yards. With 50 grns of FFF Swiss it is capable of 3" - 4" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. The problem that I have experienced even with this load is that many times the rifle will not stabilize the bullet until it has been fired several times. On more than one occasion after missing the target I have walked down range to find the profile of a minie ball somewhere on the 4' x 8' target board. My primary purpose for this rifle is for deer hunting. With such inconsistency (especially with first shots) I really can't depend on it for that purpose.

My question for those of you that are more experienced with rifled muskets is... is this considered typical performance? I have put some thought in the idea that the bullet could be undersized. If that is the case, would that explain why the rifle preffers the faster burning FFF? Could it also be a possible explanation as to why it will not group at times until it has a fouled bore? Any ideas or suggestions would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks Todd

[George Gompf]

In my experience, tumbling bullets are usually due to undersized projectiles. First thing you need to find out is the bore diameter. I size .0015 under bore diameter. Your keyhole problem sounds like the minie is undersize.

I shoot a .585 rapine sized down to .5815 in my LG&Y. My LG&Y also needs to be hot and dirty to do its best. I came to think that it had to do with heat expanding the metal and making the bedding tighter. I improved it’s performance by bedding under the barrel and around the breech area. I am on the US International Muzzle Loading Team and had to use a special mixture of hide glue and saw dust but in the N-SSA you could use any glass bedding.

This is just my opinion. Hope it is of some use to you.

George

[Norm Gibson, 4901V]

I agree with George you have an undersized bullet.

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

I agree under sized bullets are the most likely suspect. In addition, you use the term "Fairly Pure" Lead. It must be pure lead (99%+) or you will likely have problems with a minie ball not expanding properly into the rifling.

If you are not shooting regularly, a patched round ball will work very good in a musket. You can vary the patch thickness until you find the right match. 100 yard accuracy can be 2-3" group without much effort. First shot is usually dead on from a rest, after you work up the load.

[stretchman25]

Fellows ... thanks for the replies to my questions. I agree that a larger diameter bullet is probally what is needed. Would a correctly sized bullet slide down the muzzel of a clean barrel and hit the breech on its own weight, or would it need the help of a loading rod? The reason that I ask is because I don't like the idea of pulling the breech-plug to slug the bore. The lead that I use comes from roof jacks and lead pipes. As far as I know it is fairly pure, but of course it is not analytical pure lead.

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

Stretchman,
If you're going to buy several sizer dies to find the right bore diameter, why don't you start looking for someone with a bore gauge, or find a friend with a lathe and a good set of calipers and make your own bore gauge. No need to pull the breech. Once you have sized the bore, buy a Rapine .585 mould and just one sizer die about .001 smaller than bore. Just a thought.

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Todd, Your problem does sound like undersized minies and possibly too hard lead to me also. I have melted some lead pipes that turned out to be quite hard, but the roofing lead should be soft. A SAECO lead hardness tester (or other brand--I happen to have a SAECO) will tell you exactly how hard or soft your lead is. Also, I have found that a correctly sized and lubed bullet may slide into a barrel under the weight of a ramrod, but yours does sound too small.

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

A CLEAN barrel, that is. After a shot or 2, you should have to push them in a bit.

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

I had some lead from pipes and thought it was soft until I took it to the range. A friend analyzed it and turned out to be about 93% lead, 7% was tin and zinc. Since then, I stay away from pipes except for my Smoothie.

Roof lead is usually okay.

[hobbler]

To Stretchman...
For many years my elder brother has been a wizard at producing incredible accuracy by paper patching pure lead. I'm going to give it a go with paper patched minies in a zany Zouave and a frustrating Fremont. Between Lymans and Armisport there is almost a conspiracy in dimensions to promote the purchase of onion skin. I have an old Lymans 57730 that never saw .575" on a good day...time to make lymanade!
Don't have results to rcommend yet, but wanted to pass along the thought as the source of the problem appears to be a difference in bullet OD and bore ID. Good luck.

[Jim Strang]

Paper patching may or may not work with minies in non-N-SSA usage, and you can shoot 'em to your heart's content anywhere that is not a skirmish. But as far as N-SSA competition goes, paper-patched minies violate the rules. As in illegal. As in, "Off the line!"

As Casey said, you could look it up:

17.1 AMMUNITION, GENERAL
Ammunition shall consist of a lead or lead alloy projectile and a pre-measured charge of black powder. Projectiles may be coated with a lubricant, and hollow bases may be filled with lubricant.

[J Weber 4114V]

As the others have said,your minnes are undersized. In a clean barrel a outside lubed minne [lubersizer] will NOT fall to breech. The weight of ramrod will slowly press it home though.
Paper patching just might make your set up work though if your lead is soft enough to expand into the rifling.
Your choice of molds is sorta limited with the humongous bore size you have though
Check this site for PP info.They have a whole section just on PP.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

[Chris Sweeney]

Last year, I was given a pile of minies by someone who thought they were undersized for his gun. They checked out at .576, which is what I shoot in mine so I gave them a try:
At 25 yds they shot half a foot low, and were printing a perfect sideways silhouette in my plywood backer!
I tested the hardness at about 8 1/2 BHN. Not excessively hard - I could still pinch the bases in.

Since then I've been a firm believer that hardness is AT LEAST as important as diameter

[William H. Shuey]

I have a Rapine 585465 mold that was produced many years ago for a batch of Navy Arms Zouaves that came in with greatly over sized barrels. I bought it for another weapon that had an oversize bore but in the end gave up and sent the weapon to be sleeved and rifled to correct dimensions.
This is Rapine's semi wad cutter bullet so it wouldn't be of interest for hunting.

Bill Shuey

[1-12 INF (M)]

I'm a beginner with the same problems. At the range today, my GI standard rifle test fire target was unscathed at 100 yards after a few shots of 45g FFg and the .575 minie ball offered by Dixie Gun Works. So, I moved to 50. Still nothing. Okay...25 then. Nope - the bullets were vanishing the moment they left the muzzle. I didn't have a spotter, but I think they were going high. As for windage, I had no guess.

I tried a patched ball and 50g of FFg, and managed to clip the edge of the paper! - 14" Low and 16" Left - at 25 yards... After trying more minies, I finally managed to get one to hit the paper.. but it was sideways. They were keyholing.

I don't think the front sight on this Zouave is adjustable, it doesn't look like it's in a dovetail.

Before I decide this rifle is unshootable, does anyone have a suggestion? Maybe a different bullet supplier (I haven't started casting...yet).

[Terry Davis 10639]

As everyone suggested to the originator of this thread, the evidence you have indicates that your minnie balls are too small. DGW throws out numbers for suggested bullet diameters but without checking the actual bore diameter it is just a guess.

A suggestion of a .575 minie would suggest that the actual bore is .576-.577. For accurate shooting we NEED to have pure lead minies, 0.001 to 0.002" undersize relative to the actual barrel diameter. From what I have read here, not based on my own experience, Italian made Zouaves typically run much larger, closer to .580 So if that is true your bullets are WAY undersized. The paper patch probably helps only because it takes up some of the slop.
Another point is if you ordered the bullets from DWG, it may be part of the problem. They claim they make pure lead minies, but I ordered some a couple of years ago to try a different style of bullet. I don't have a tester, but I am 90% sure that the bullets they sent are not pure lead. They also grouped like a shotgun. The same rifle with the right bullet will put all my shots in the black off the bench all day.
So, check your actual bore diameter, get some pure lead minies, and try varying your powder charge until you find the right load. Most guys I know are using 40-50 grn of 2F. I like 3 F better, and shoot 35 Grn in mine.
With regard to sights, a taller front sight is needed if you are shooting at less than about 200 yards. Springfields are typically "zeroed" at longer ranges and will shoot very high at 100 yards or less. I assume the same is true for zouaves. If your gun is dovetailed, replacement front sights are easy. If not, it requires someone to weld or braize the front sight higher and shape it with a file. Once dialed in, you should get good accuracy.
Good luck.


I'm a beginner with the same problems. At the range today, my GI standard rifle test fire target was unscathed at 100 yards after a few shots of 45g FFg and the .575 minie ball offered by Dixie Gun Works. So, I moved to 50. Still nothing. Okay...25 then. Nope - the bullets were vanishing the moment they left the muzzle. I didn't have a spotter, but I think they were going high. As for windage, I had no guess.

I tried a patched ball and 50g of FFg, and managed to clip the edge of the paper! - 14" Low and 16" Left - at 25 yards... After trying more minies, I finally managed to get one to hit the paper.. but it was sideways. They were keyholing.

I don't think the front sight on this Zouave is adjustable, it doesn't look like it's in a dovetail.

Before I decide this rifle is unshootable, does anyone have a suggestion? Maybe a different bullet supplier (I haven't started casting...yet).

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Definitely need a different bullet supplier. Dixie is good for a lot of things but bullets are not one of them. It is likely the bullets are both too small and hard.

You don't say what you're shooting so we cannot help you with likely barrel size. Just because it is a Zouave doesn't mean it is the same as all others. Maker matters. I have seen have as small as .573-.585 in the various Zouaves made. It varies even with the same maker. You REALLY need to measure your bore before ordering bullets. A good local Gunsmith or machinist can measure them for you.

Pat Kaboskey makes bullets that I have heard you can rely on to be pure and the size ordered. No web page that I know of but his number is 262-363-4625.

Don't worry about the sights until you have worked out a good group. Otherwise you will be buying parts.


BTW, Is this by chance a re-enactor gun? Guns that have been heavily used in re-enacting rarely shoot well. Something to with gas erosion around the breach area enlarging the chamber area. Never will get one that has this problem to shoot well without a re-lining of the barrel.

[varsity07840]

Even if they're the right size, minies from DGW and other vendors can be a problem because most are sold in bags which allow them to bang about and damage the skirts. Issues like that, and an oversize bore on my original '63 got me into casting a long time ago.

An interesting note on "pure" lead. I have freebe access to sheet lead for walls in x-ray rooms that I had always thought was pure .I used it to cast some minies for my rifled '42 and noticed that they did not group very well. I thought maybe it was me, but then I tried my lead tester on it and it was harder than ingots sold as pure from Buffalo Arms which indeeed tested pure. Now I only use it for round balls.

Duane

[1-12 INF (M)]

The DGW minies are very hard, have bent skirts and I can't get 'em to shoot worth anything. I'm buying some quality bullets from Mr. Kabosky.

Thanks to the folks on this board for their help.

[Bob Hatfield]

"The reason that I ask is because I don't like the idea of pulling the breech-plug to slug the bore"

No need to pull the breechplug. Take a .570 ball and squeeze it in a vise until it is larger than bore diameter......grease the ball and hammer it into the bore (easy on the hammering). Push it down and then use your ball puller to pull it back out with the rifing engraved on the ball...............Now comes the hard part. Measuring the 3 groove rifling.................... Bob

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Never bought any minies from Dixie Gun Works but know a former team member who did. Back in 1977 when they hosted the first Nathan Bedford Forrest skirmish at Union City, two of us with the 3rd GA in Savannah, GA drove up to Tennessee to attend, and met another member Brannen Sanders (then with Euroarms in Winchester) who came by plane so was able to bring his musket but no ammo. While at DGW, he bought some minies along with a bullet sizer, and one of their indestructible phenolic plastic bullet starters to push the minies through the sizer. He probably had not sized more than 50 rounds before the “indestructible” bullet starter disintegrated in his hands. It certainly was not as indestructible as it was advertised, and while the minies were supposed to have been pure lead, he had to pound them through the sizer which was supposed to have been the same size as the minies. I had always wondered why Dixie sold such wrinkledy bullets.

Richard McAuley, 3014V
37th GA