Musket Cook offs

[Steve Buchanan]

I've been experiecing musket cook offs going on 3 years now consistantly about 1 per match at the breech. They can occur antime durring the team match usually with in the first 3 or 4 relays. I shoot an original Zouave 7 L&G barrel with the wilkinson bullet, 40 grains 3 f Goex and MCM lube. Tried cleaning after each relay, the barrel has been to 2 gunsmiths, new nipples both large and small holes, different cleaning patches, 3 lube recipes, different style bullet to no avail. before I give up on the rifle is there anyone having the same luck? The next thing I intend to try is a new lot of powder....Help....ideas???

[jonk]

Are you lubing the bases? One of my teammates turned me on to filling the bases with white lithium grease... he's never had a cook off in about 40 years of skirmishing. This is my first year skirmishing, but, fingers crossed, I've not had one yet either...

[Edwin Flint]

Check your patches. Friend had this problem with patches leaving threads which became ember, followed by cookoff on the next shot.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Suggest that you unbreech the gun and polish the face of the breech plug. That is the usual suspect. Or have a competent gunsmith do it.

[John Holland]

I would experiment with a different musket using the exact ammo, lube, and cleaning process. If the preemies continue then the problem lies in your components. If the preemies cease then the problem is with your original rifle. Just a simple process of elimination rather than guessing what may be wrong and randomly changing things hoping the problem will go away.

Just my 2 cents.

JDH

[ms3635v]

I agree with Lou about polishing the face of the breech plug. An old timer who got me started shooting CW muskets and rifles back in the early 70's taught me that trick. I remove the breech plug and use different grades of crocus cloth then polish to mirror bright on my buffing wheel and then reinstall the breech plug. Once the face is mirror bright it cleans very easily, and as Mr. Flint indicated, threads from cleaning patches are definitely big offenders. With the polished breech plug face there is nothing for the threads to get caught on. I always pull the loose threads from the patch before using them.

[pastore]

, threads from cleaning patches are definitely big offenders. With the polished breech plug face there is nothing for the threads to get caught on. I always pull the loose threads from the patch before using them.

A better solution is to use patches which don't have loose threads to begin with.

[Maillemaker]

Have you cleaned your musket using a breech face scraper? This is an attachment for your cleaning rod that has a blade on the end sort of like a .58 caliber screwdriver. :)

Here is a picture of one:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/fs-50_0.jpg

They say that powder residue/fouling will build up on the face of the breech, and your usual patch cleaning does not clean the face of the breech as much as it wipes the bore. They say that residue on the breech face can turn into coke, and it may start to glow after heavy firing, which can cause cook-offs.

As part of every cleaning regimen you should scrape the breech face with a breech face scraper.

It stands to reason that polishing the breech face might make it harder for deposits to stick to it, but I would still recommend scraping with a breech face scraper as part of the usual after-match cleaning process. It should not be necessary during a match.

Steve

[RaiderANV]

If,,,,,,,your using patches between relays try using a brush only. I use to get a couple a year and then three in a row in the same relay. I only brush my bore and the cook-offs stop. It was a Zouave also.

[Charlie Hahn]

Howdy,

I see considerable advice, I have a few questions.

Do you remove the breech plug on a regular base?

Does the flash hole come in flush with the breech plug face?

Is there erosion under the nipple?

Is the barrel glass bedded, and if so how long ago?

You stated this has been happening the past 2-3 years, was it okay before that?

Are you using plastic loading tubes?

If yes, are they vented?

How far in advance to a shoot do you load your ammo?

How do you store and transport ?

You mentioned you are using a flat based bullet, do you dip lube? Is there a pile up on the bullet base? What bullet did you use before? Did the cooks offs start when you changed bullets?

If you could ponder through this list and give me a call, we might come up with a simple change that we can measure to see if it corrects the condition.

Charlie Hahn
410-208-4736

[George Gompf]

Guys,
There are lots of suggestions on how to fix this problem but nobody is stressing the safety factor of the issue. What are you going to do when it cooks off with the minie and ramrod half way down the barrel? Just my two cents but my initial thoughts are that this is an accident just waiting to happen. Someone is going to get hurt and probably it will include the shooter and possibly team mates or fellow skirmishers. Might be a good idea to pull the gun from the line and switch to another musket until you get this issue resolved. You are talking about a regular occurrence. This is just not safe. We have few enough shooters as it is, we don’t need to thin the ranks through accidents.

George Gompf
FEC - Deep South Region

[Joseph Plakis Jr, 00302V]

I have read every ones suggestions to remedy your problem. This is what I did when I had the same problem.

I had a Mississippi (it was a repro) that I purchased used. Some "intelligent" individual who had the gun before me saw pitting on the breech plug. What he did was polish, grind until there was about a 1/32" gap from the face of the breech pug to the shoulder where the breech is supposed to touch. This leaves a slight gap for powder fouling to accumulate that you cannot clean out. Needles to say I had at least one cook off per event. The remedy to the problem you have is to pull the breech plug and if you see a little “carbon doughnut”. If you do, you need a new breech plug that fits properly. I would NOT polish the breech plug because if you make it too short you have a gun that my teammates referred to as the “Roman Candle”. The solution I chose to my problem was to buy a new barrel.

Do your self a favor pull the breech plug & make sure it fits properly. Then make your decision.

Joe Plakis Jr 00302V
Hampton Legion

[ms3635v]

George,

I think members are, in fact, posting suggestions in an effort to help stop the problem. I think we can all agree that this is a serious problem. I have not seen any posts that are downplaying the problem. We all want see that cook-offs are taken seriously, and we all want to see that the shooter and those on the line around the shooter remain safe. It is also the responsibility of the person experiencing the problem to keep the firearm at an arm's length and at an angle away from the line to keep everyone safe, in addition to rectifying the problem that is causing the cook-off. This certainly appears that the whole thread is aimed at correcting the problem. And to respond to Joe's post, I agree, if a person does not know how to polish the breech plug they should not attempt to do this. I have not had a problem after polishing the face of the breech plug and I have been skirmishing since 1979.

[BobbyHannula8450v]

One thing to check is that your hammer sits firmly down on the nipple and spent cap after each shot. I have a Fayettville that was giving me random cook offs and it was because of this. If it does not sit firmly it will allow air into the breech which allows any residue to still burn. I filed a little off the front side of my nipple and fixed the problem. Just something quick and easy to check.

Bobby Hannula

[Steve Buchanan]

Guy's,

The response to my issue is over whelming and very much appreciated, keep them comming! You all have alot of really great suggestions that make sense. The only work not done is to have the breech plug polished, maybe...could it be? As I said the breech plug has been pulled by a very competent barrel maker and and outstanding gunsmith. No one saw this as a problem, a comment was made though....I've seen alot worse erosion. The breech plug was checked for fit also and was deemed good. I take care of this rifle and It's cleaned religiousely after each match using hot water and soap. The barrel is also pulled from the stock a couple times a year. It is partially glass bedded.

Yes I have a bottom scraper.

The ammo is fresh.

Wilkinsons do not have a hollow base. Tried a custom Brooks International minie....barrel cooks. Actually won the Nats musket agg with it, only because H.P. was not shooting.

I've switched from the the military type cleaning patches to ones that do not fray, either ones used.....barrel cooks.

John, Charlie and George, thanks for your valuable input and concern. I do have a second rifle waiting in the wings, now there is more motivation for me to get it going on the line, after nationals.

Charlie, I will want you to polish the breech plug over the winter and get your expert opinion.

This problem is driving the safeties nuts too, every time the gun cooks off they always come running to see if I'm ok, yea it's ok happens all the time! Not funny....thanks George.

Thank you all again....if there are any new thoughts please post.

Steve Buchanan

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

I've had two cook-offs since I started skirmishing in the early 80's. I don't think that makes me an expert, but I don't care to become one either.

I just had a thought though. Have you been using powder from the same lot the whole time? Could it be something with the propellant?

When I was in an artillery unit on active duty, we were issued a bad lot of powder, and all of a sudden the entire battery was having misfire problems. It's a big deal cracking open the breach of a howitzer and letting air in at 10-20 lbs of powder that may have an ember burning. We heard through the grapevine that the problem was the powder had be exposed to moisture, but that could have just speculation that turned into a rumor and then became a well-known fact.

[Eggman]

Nary a cookoff since '72 (which means never). Always use cut up T-shirts for cleaning. Always have been wary of those loose threads on the commercial cleaning patches.

[Maillemaker]

Wow, sure sounds like you have covered nearly all the bases! Keep us updated on what you discover.

Steve

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Steve, I think Joe Plakis' advice should be followed NOW. So I think you should get that second rifle sighted in BEFORE the next time you shoot (the upsoming Naionals). As Geoge Gompf advises, SAFETY FIRST!

(I just don't to be anywhere near if you continue to use "the Roman candle.")

[Eggman]

I just gotta ask Gary, when the big gun didn't go off, did everybody run?

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Steve is a very fast shooter. It may be that his speed in reloading is a major factor in this problem. The problem that he is having with this particular barrel may be extremely difficult to determine and may not be correctible except by slowing down, which of course he doesn't want to do. I believe that this is the second time that he has posted this problem. I would suggest trying a different barrel just to see if the problem carries over. My hope is that a different barrel will solve the problem. Not an ideal solution, but it sure beats cook-offs and the dangers they present.

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

It was a self-propelled 155 mm Howitzer. The whole gun crew evacuated to a safe distance, except for the gunner and assistant gunner. They got to crack the breach and unload the charge. The main charge isn't really gun powder. Theres a series of bags containing cordite(?) and the last bag in the series has a red patch containing black powder. Pulling the lanyard actually sets off a .308 blank catridge into that red patch, and the black powder ignites the cordite.

Burning cordite is hot - really hot. I went along once to burn off excess powder after a field problem. I was at least 80 yards away, and didn't turn my head fast enough when it ignited. I came home with what looked like a sun burn on half of my face.

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Gary, I assume the black powder did not ignite. Or did it and not ignite the cordite? Or was the .308 blank a dud? Inquiring minds......you know.

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

All the .308 blanks went off, and they tried a bunch of them. The black powder in the 'red patch' did not ignite.

[Eggman]

When I was a 105 battery exec we had a base piece misfire. The gun was REALLY hot from continuous firing, so the gun crew jackrabbited to the rear. The fear was the projo detonating in the tube. The base piece crew was immediately followed by the entire battery of 100 troopers or so. A few minutes later the 105 case was removed and the projo punched out, and back to business. Cause was a bad primer in the 105 case.
We always burned our unused powder bags. Made a flame about 30 or 40 feet high I'd guess. One young LT cleared the insulation from some telephone lines one day.

[Maillemaker]

One young LT cleared the insulation from some telephone lines one day.

"Reach out, reach out and touch someone..." :)

Steve

[Southron Sr.]

Between the late 1960's (when I started Skirmishing) and the mid-1980's I averaged one or two "Cook-Offs" per year. I did note that ALL of my Cook Offs occurred when: [1] My rifle-musket's barrel was "Hot" after firing 8 to 12 rounds "Rapid Fire." [2] It was always a Hot & Humid Summertime day.

Possible Causes of Cook Offs:

[A] My standard technique is to un-breech my rifle-muskets ONE TIME EACH YEAR BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF SKIRMISH SEASON. I remove the built-up "Cake" which is a hardened ring of CARBON FOULING that forms on the joint between the face of the breech plug and the barrel walls. THIS RING OF CAKE CAN ONLY BE REMOVED BY REMOVING YOUR BREECH PLUG. Bore scrapers will delay the build up of this "Cake" but cannot completely remove it.

Cake can cause Cook Offs as it will retain heat and glowing embers.

[B] A Skirt or Skirts sticking in your breech will cause "Cook Offs." At one Nationals we had a team member that suffered 4 Cook Offs IN A ROW. He had Minie Ball Skirts stuck in his breech!

[C] I quit using Crisco as an ingredient in my lube formula in the Mid-1980's AND I HAVEN'T HAD A COOK OFF SINCE!!!

There is a LOT OF GOOD ADVICE IN THE POSTS ABOVE. If I were in your situation the first thing I would do is to have a competent gunsmith or experienced team member help you pull your breech-plug and inspect the breech of your barrel. I think that once you pull that breech-plug that there will be a 95% chance that it will be obvious as to what is causing your Cook Offs!

Look at it this way, if you are shooting an original Zouave, then you might even have a 150 year old cake in your breech!!!!

Polish the face of that breech plug!

ALSO - BRUSH BETWEEN RELAYS!!!

Go to your local Wal-Mart and purchase about a half-dozen of those 20 GAUGE SHOTGUN BRISTLE BRUSHES. Then thread one to the end of your cleaning rod. You want to "Dry Brush" between relays. Here is the "Technique:" [A] Insert cleaning rod with bronze bristle brush into your barrel, Move it up and down a few times. [B] Put your musket with the rod still in the barrel over your shoulder WITH THE MUZZLE POINTING DOWNWARD AND THEN RUN THE ROD UP AND DOWN IN THE BARREL A FEW TIMES. YOU WILL BE ASTOUNDED BY THE AMOUNT OF FOULING THAT FALLS OUT OF YOUR MUZZLE.

[Gary B]

One more question to add to Charlies:
Did you change the type of oil you use in the barrel ?
This may sound unimportant, but after 23 years without a cook-off (upon recomendation) I switched to "Corrosion -X" firearms oil and had 3 cookoffs that spring. After many other attemped fixes like polishing the breach plug, etc., I realized that the oil was the only thing I changes from the previous season. I switched back to Break Free oil and have not had one since (10+ years). Coincidence ? , I think not.
Hope this helps.
Gary B.

[Steve Buchanan]

Thanks for your input Gary, I do use break free oil for final cleaning before storage, sometimes Balistoil. This is applied after hot soap and water are used and drawn through a tube connected to the breech bolster. Oddly enough I did not have a cook off at the Potomac. Being quite jittery now, I hesitated momentarily before pouring any powder down the bore. Even with my unfortunate luck my reliable shooting partners still shot next to me.

For other inputs, I used this rifle for 9 years with no incidents. The Wilkinsin design is a solid base bullet without a skirt. The breech plug was polished mirror bright late last year.

BCGS was out of Goex keg powder so I'll wait until after Nationals and try new.

Thanks again all for your input.....I'll keep you posted.

Sincerely,

The cook off kid.....

[Maillemaker]

Even with my unfortunate luck my reliable shooting partners still shot next to me.

I have this imagine in my head of the scene from Ghostbusters where they turn on their proton packs for the first time in the elevator... :)

Steve