Miroku 1861 Springfield Breech Problems

[Jud96]

I know that the Miroku 1861s rip the back of the minnie balls skirts off causing lead rings. Is there anyway that Miroku Springfields breech problems can be fixed where the breech is the same size as the bore and eliminates the lead rings? Would sleeving the barrel fix this or can Whitacre, Hoyt, or anyone else make a barrel that fits the Miroku?

[Rich Foster]

Sleeving or Relining barrel should solve this problem. Hoyt can do this for you. Replacing the barrel requires more labor refitting. Remember custom replacement barrels are made to original specs. Repos are not always exact to these measurements. Rich Foster

[Jud96]

Sleeving or Relining barrel should solve this problem. Hoyt can do this for you. Replacing the barrel requires more labor refitting. Remember custom replacement barrels are made to original specs. Repos are not always exact to these measurements. Rich Foster Ok, how much would it cost to reline that kind of barrel?

[Blair]

Jud,


This is just a suggestion on my part, but, you may need to check with either Hoyt or Whitacer for current pricing information.
They may need to see the barrel and/or de-breech it to determine what would be the best approach for correcting the problem you have with the barrel in your firearm.
You may find that a complete 'new' drop in barrel maybe your best bet?

[Jud96]

Jud,This is just a suggestion on my part, but, you may need to check with either Hoyt or Whitacer for current pricing information.They may need to see the barrel and/or de-breech it to determine what would be the best approach for correcting the problem you have with the barrel in your firearm.You may find that a complete 'new' drop in barrel maybe your best bet? Ok, thanks for the sugestions.

[Jud96]

How much do you think it would cost for Hoyt to fit a drop in barrel to my gun?

[Jack C., 69th NY]

Jud,
I and several other skirmishers I know have used Mirokus and we were never aware of skirts being ripped off. Are you sure it is the Miroku and not some other cause? Has anyone else experienced this problem? I never heard of being a Miroku problem until today.

[Rich Foster]

Blair, When you reline a musket barrel the rifling goes all the way to the breech plug so any problem that he has in the breech would be replaced with new rifling. Don't understand your logic that the condition of breech would still be there after relining quote needing a new barrel. Rich Foster

[Paul Lampman 263V]

Before you go too far into you wallet, pull the breech plug and look at the condition of the breech and breech plug. You may have a ring of lead from a bad bullet causing the problem. If not, a new breech plug may solve the problem with much less $ involved.

[Jud96]

Yes it is an old Miruko, its not mine but a fellow teamates who mentioned selling it and it interested me. He told me that after every event he had a to clean out the breach using this special jig he made of brass that wouldn't ruin the barrel but would clean out the lead rings. The rifle hasn't been used since the 80s and was used very little then so its in great shape. I would love to get a good deal on it and have it be a simple fix. Another problem that I don't know of its exactly true that I heard from some other civil war forum, was that the Miroku's had a problem with gas or something leaking because of something being wrong with the clean out screw hole I read this on the cwreeanactors forum so not sure if its true?

[RaiderANV]

I too have never heard of the problems you mention with the Miroku barrels. I had several of these over the years and everyone of them functioned perfect and all where very accurate.
Below is Dan's info and I'm pretty sure he can make a drop in barrel. I'm also pretty sure that's not what you need. I simple reline should cure your ills but as mentioned above take the breech plug out and see what's going on first. Dan's prices are listed on his site. Also I'm sure Bobby can do the work as well.



http://www.whitacresmachineshop.com/whitacretitle2.gif
Quality Civil War Musket Barrels
Civil War Era Enfield, Zouave, and Springfield Musket Barrels.

519 Turtle Meadow Drive
Winchester, VA 22602
telephone: 540.877.1468
email: http://www.whitacresmachineshop.com/email-1.gif

[Jud96]

I too have never heard of the problems you mention with the Miroku barrels. I had several of these over the years and everyone of them functioned perfect and all where very accurate.Below is Dan's info and I'm pretty sure he can make a drop in barrel. I'm also pretty sure that's not what you need. I simple reline should cure your ills but as mentioned above take the breech plug out and see what's going on first. Dan's prices are listed on his site. Also I'm sure Bobby can do the work as well.info.http://www.whitacresmachineshop.com/whitacretitle2.gifQuality Civil War Musket BarrelsCivil War Era Enfield, Zouave, and Springfield Musket Barrels.519 Turtle Meadow DriveWinchester, VA 22602telephone: 540.877.1468email: http://www.whitacresmachineshop.com/email-1.gif Ok, I know I won't get a barrep but might get it relined since it isn't too big of a deal. I'll take a look at it and see what it looks like, if its not to harsh i'll see if my Dad can fix it since he's machinest and he'll know whats best, thanks for the info.

[Francis J. Miller Jr, 02601]

All,

I'm not familiar with the Miroku, but did they ever have the patent breech like others had, and have the space between the barrel and breechplug that could be causing skirt separation???

[Jud96]

Yes Francis, according to the info I have found is the guns that had this problem that were made by Miroku had a breach that was bigger in diameter than the barrel itself so the minie would expand and have a part of its skirt ripped off by the edges at the back of the barrel. I just thought, does anyone think the Wilkinson bullet, that works on inertia instead of expanding like a Minie Ball, would eliminate these issues???

[Jud96]

Would a Wilkinson bullet eliminate the lead ring issue since the Wilkinson works off of inertia instead of gas pressure expanding a skirt like a Minie?

[RaiderANV]

Without knowing for sure what's wrong with you barrel I don't see how anyone could answer this question.

[Jud96]

Without knowing for sure what's wrong with you barrel I don't see how anyone could answer this question. I'm just saying if the breach is larger than the barrel and the minie expands larger than the barrel then gets fired into the barrel and gets part of the skirt ripped off would a Wilkinson's bullet avoid this problem? I'm not sure what exactly the problem is but I know for sure it rips skirts off minies. According to research i've done this is caused because early Miroku's had a larger diamet breach than the actual barrel.

[RaiderANV]

It would stands to reason it would still shave lead. I've had/shoot 5 of the these and worked on many more and never encountered this problem

[Maillemaker]

I think the best thing to do would be to have a competent gunsmith remove the breech plug and see what is going on down at that end of the barrel.

If there is a step in the barrel, that is going to be a problem. You've basically turned your gun into a blackpowder-powered sizer. :)

Relining is nice because it uses your original barrel which should drop right back in place into the stock.

Failing this, a new barrel can be made using your original breech plug, which means that at least the tang will fit into your original stock.

If you opt for a new barrel, make sure your barrel maker can make it a "drop in" replacement for your current barrel.

Steve

[Jud96]

I think the best thing to do would be to have a competent gunsmith remove the breech plug and see what is going on down at that end of the barrel.If there is a step in the barrel, that is going to be a problem. You've basically turned your gun into a blackpowder-powered sizer. :)Relining is nice because it uses your original barrel which should drop right back in place into the stock.Failing this, a new barrel can be made using your original breech plug, which means that at least the tang will fit into your original stock.If you opt for a new barrel, make sure your barrel maker can make it a "drop in" replacement for your current barrel. SteveThanks for all the suggestions and help. How much does Hoyt charge to reline a Springfield?

[Blair]

I can not speak for the Miroku '61 type Springfield's. I have never had one apart to be able to talk about it.
However, I have had the hybrid '63 apart. These pre-date the '61's production.

The '63's do tend to have what I call a "false chamber" at the breech end of the barrel. These are known for ripping off the skirts of Minnie balls. (the chamber is larger than the max bore dia. I also have photos of this design for those that may wish to have them. Please, if you would like those images, e-mail me.)

On these early '63's... there is NO Breech plug to remove!
The whole breech/bolster section in one piece, commonly referred to as a "patented breech".
Various modern manufactures of ACW firearms use the "patented breech" system. They have all had periods of production where this concept becomes an issue due to pore quality control.

This is my reason for having made the 'suggestion' I did in post # 4. (Remember, it was and is only meant and intended as 'suggestion' on my part !)

Price check with,
R.A .Hoyt
Freischutz Shop
700 Fairfield Station Road
Fairfield, PA. 17320 # 717-642-6696

[Jud96]

Thanks Blair, I am almost 100% sure my team mate said his musket was an 1861. From what you have said and what I have researched his musket has to have a "Patent Breach." Will relining the barrel eliminate this problem or will he need a whole new barrel?

[Rich Foster]

Patent breech or a breech plug does not contain rifling. A seated bullet does not recess into breech plug nor does it recess into patent breech. The rifling starts at a breech plug or it starts where the patent breech screws on the barrel. Now that said Whitacre can take your Patent breech and screw another barrel on it and taper it to you old barrel dia. for a drop in fit or your barrel can be relined. The choice is yours relining with be the cheapest and new barrel will cost more. All this considering that your rifling dia. like you said might be oversize. Bullets with thin skirts have known to blow off if not casted right or too much powder. What ever you do you will have to have a gunsmith that can check out your barrel problem and recommend how to fix it.

[Southron Sr.]

Pulling the breech plug or breech section (depending on how the barrel is constructed) would answer a lot of questions. If you don't have experience doing this, get with a fellow Skirmisher or muzzleloading gunsmith that kno ws what to do.

I wouldn't rely on information provided by re-enactors as most are not very knowledgeable when it comes to firearms.

[Jud96]

Ok we'll have to take a look at the breach, and normally blow reeanacters off when they're talking about firearms but you never can tell when it sounds dangerous or not so good.

[Southron Sr.]

I didn't mean to besmirch all re-enactors but my experience is while there are a few very knowledgeable re-enactors when it comes to guns and gunsmithing....many are almost clueless.

At a "Live Fire Shoot" I sponsored for re-enactors, one showed up with a brand new Euroarms Enfield, some oversize hard lead balls, a FRAMING HAMMER and a steel rod. You guessed it, he was using the hammer and the steel rod to "load" his Enfield. It took him about 2 or 3 minutes to load one round!

When I offered him some cartridges that utilized Minie Balls-he flat out told me that he was loading his Enfield "the original Confederate way."

[Maillemaker]

Your best bet for pricing information is to contact them directly.

I don't think Hoyt has a web site.

Whitacre has one here: http://www.whitacresmachineshop.com/

Looks like Whitacre charges $250-$280.

Be aware that some of these folks are cash-only, no credit cards.

Steve

[Jud96]

Ok thanks everyone for the help. Now I just need to get it for a fair price. What is a good price for this Miroku if it has this problem because I'm looking at a 250$ fix for it?

[Eggman]

I believe Bobby Hoyt will do a reline for less. A carbine right now runs $150 I believe. You need to keep calling until you get him. If you sell the gun as is I recommend a price of $29.

[Jud96]

I believe Bobby Hoyt will do a reline for less. A carbine right now runs $150 I believe. You need to keep calling until you get him. If you sell the gun as is I recommend a price of $29. Ok, and I'm not selling it my team mate is and I want to buy it. What would a realistic price be other than $29?

[Maillemaker]

What would a realistic price be other than $29?

Well, if you know or highly supsect the firearm is defective, I'd find out what the market price is for that particular firearm and deduct the price of the cheapest possible repair to arrive at a fair price.

And I would certainly tell prospective buyers about the defect.

Steve

[Eggman]

Ok Big Steve, when you head for the used car lot, do you insist that the dealer give you the MINIMUM amount your trade-in is worth?? Wouldn't 17th Penn. want the MAXIMUM allowance for upgrades to bring it up to skirmish standards? Plus the thing is a lawsuit waiting to happen as it is configured now. Help me now, I'm trying to hang onto the last shards of brains I have left.
My revised estimate - gun value $250. Upgrade allowance $270. Bottom line, he gives you $20 to take it.

[Jud96]

Ok Big Steve, when you head for the used car lot, do you insist that the dealer give you the MINIMUM amount your trade-in is worth?? Wouldn't 17th Penn. want the MAXIMUM allowance for upgrades to bring it up to skirmish standards? Plus the thing is a lawsuit waiting to happen as it is configured now. Help me now, I'm trying to hang onto the last shards of brains I have left.
My revised estimate - gun value $250. Upgrade allowance $270. Bottom line, he gives you $20 to take it.
Thanks for the value estimate, I was thinking in the $300-350 range since these babies with no problems go for $500-700. If I purchase this thing I'm gonna call Hoyt up and ask him if he can repair it or will relining be the only way to go besides of course buying a whole new barrel.

[Eggman]

Jud -- sounds good but please consider Blair's and Southron's and everybodys' advice and remove the breech first. Any competent machine shop downtown can do this for you. THEN decide on the reline, rebarrel or whatever. Your goal is a rifled and uniform bore all the way to the very dead end. NO EXCEPTION!!!! Of course if you decide to rebarrel now you'll save time and possibly in the long run money, but you'll leave us forum rats wondering what the inside really looks like.

[Jud96]

Jud -- sounds good but please consider Blair's and Southron's and everybodys' advice and remove the breech first. Any competent machine shop downtown can do this for you. THEN decide on the reline, rebarrel or whatever. Your goal is a rifled and uniform bore all the way to the very dead end. NO EXCEPTION!!!! Of course if you decide to rebarrel now you'll save time and possibly in the long run money, but you'll leave us forum rats wondering what the inside really looks like.
LOL, well hopefully we get to check out the musket at the Potomac since my team mate has the dang thing and he lives a good four hours away! Did some reading and have heard these guns don't have a removable breach plug, I guess we'll have to see. I checked out Whitacre's web site and he says he repairs barrels. Does this mean he could possibly fix this issue by just sleeving the oversized breach without him or Hoyt relining it? P.S. I really appreciate all of this help and sharing of knowledge from everyone, I just want to gain enough info I can so if I buy this thing I'm not lost like I was and with this knowledge know I can have the Springfield fixed faster and shooting because I know what to do!

[Maillemaker]

OK, Big Egg :) :

Like I said, if I were selling it, I'd figure out what a good firearm of that type was going for, and then I'd deduct from that price the cheapest repair possibility. In this case, probably relining the barrel.

I'm not going to sign up to pay for the most expensive repair option if I don't have to. I'd be willing to deduct from the value the minimum amount to make the gun "good" again.

Now whether anyone would be willing to buy it for that is another story.

Steve

[Ron/The Old Reb]

I would just pass on it. Fine another musket that I know is shootable, that has no issues, even if I had to pay a little more. And save a lot problems and headaches.

[Maillemaker]

I would just pass on it. Fine another musket that I know is shootable, that has no issues, even if I had to pay a little more. And save a lot problems and headaches.

Amen to that. I've easily put $800 into making my first $490 Euroarms P1853 Enfield shoot properly, and it still looks like a dog. It is a money pit.

Steve

[Chris Sweeney]

The (most?) common problem that I've seen - and it is not limited to Miroku's- is a mismatch between the male and female threads at the breech.

If you have a breech plug, and the male threads are enough shorter than the female, such that even with a load of powder, the base of the minie extends down past the female threads, then when you touch it off, the bullet skirt can expand into the threads, ripping off a ring of lead. One fix for this is to mill the end of the barrel downto make thread lengths match better. Of course, you have to be careful not to make the barrel length too short to be legal for skirmishing.

With "patent" breeches, the problem is more prevalent, because most of the powder is down in the "patent" chamber, below the threads, so any exposed barrel threads are almost guaranteed to grab hold of your skirt.

Just relining the barrel won't fix this unless the new liner extends down into the problem area.

[Maillemaker]

I found this picture of the "patent breech"

http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms/nockbreech-andrew-courtney-modern-muzzleloader.jpg


One fix for this is to mill the end of the barrel downto make thread lengths match better. Of course, you have to be careful not to make the barrel length too short to be legal for skirmishing.

if you do this, won't you end up with the plug ending up at a different rotational angle when it finally seats? In other words, your tang will be out of alignment with your front site?

Steve

[RaiderANV]

I checked out Whitacre's web site and he says he repairs barrels. Does this mean he could possibly fix this issue by just sleeving the oversized breach without him or Hoyt relining it?

JUD,,,,,,just CALL Dan and I'm guessing you can run it by his shop WHILE your at the Potomac. He's like 8 miles from then Fort.

Step away from the keyboard and DIAL======== wait for it ==================> 540-877-1468

N-SSA folks run stuff by his house all the time. He may even be shooting carbine at the Potomac. I can recall if he signed up to shoot with us as he's on my team the 6th VA Cav.