Smoothbore Theory

[Eggman]

Alright I concede that some folks shoot these things with impressive accuracy. For example I decided to watch Lani Harrison compete in the smoothbore match at Eva,TN last fall. If I remember right he had no misses. That's right, no misses.
I asked him to show me what he was using (everyone already knows about his shooting skill). There was the usual foil cartridge; he displayed some perfectly round balls, all buggered up with a file he said; all were covered with Alox. He was shooting a fairly heavy charge I believe, but I don't remember how much.
So----------smoothbore masters, please explain:
1. Why does the ball exit the bore in a consistently straight line--- why does it not bounce back and forth inside the walls of the barrel with the last barrel contact determining flight direction?
2. What is the difference between barrel diameter vs. ball diameter -- how are you filling the space between the two?
3. What do the dimples/rough areas in the ball do?
4. Why Alox?
I remember back in the day when old Sam Fadala said round balls "obturate" when fired. In other words he said they flatten out when fired filling the bore. Is this what is happening?

[hp gregory]

im not a smoothbore master but i have some ideas as to what MAY be going on inside the bore. it would seem a tight fitting ball wont shoot as well as a loose fitting one. could this be because the gas flows around the ball and centers it in the bore? hard to say. but i do know every smoothbore i have had will shoot a looser ball better than a tight one. as for the dimples. i guess if they work for a golf ball they would work on a smoothy ball. the alox seems to work well because it drys hard. unlike a musket where you want the lube to keep the fouling soft the alox remains hard and the fouling is like dust instead of sludge. as for the ball upseting to bore dia. dont count on that. i dont think that happens. it takes a lot to upset a solid lead round ball. the fit that seems to work in my gun is one where the ball barely sits on the muzzle. it practicaly falls down the bore. in fact the very thin coat of alox seems to be the only thing keeping gravity from pulling the ball down the bore. one thing i consider important when working up the ball is to remove the sprue before rolling the ball. you want the ball to be as perfect as you can get it so that as it clears the crown on the muzzle there are no imperfections that will affect the balls flight. shooting a smoothbore is a game where you try to perfect a process then repeat that process over and over. all you have working for you with a smoothbore is the ammo. good ammo will hopefully give you the good shots you are looking for.

hp

[efritz]

I'd be very interested also to hear form some of the DSSA smoothbore winners. If you are one, please weigh in on the subject. I've had some successful and some not so successful outings. I'd put more faith in a DSSA winner, as obtaining high enough scores in 25y and 50y smoothbore firing a total of 20 shots for score and doing it enough times to obtain the required 25 points is proof enough for me.
l
As to the questions I offer my humble opinions.

First, unless someone can show me a round ball being shot through a glass barrel, I don't think anyone can say what that ball is doing. Some say it's riding on a cushion of air. I need proof. Now if you get up to near bore size, fouling becomes a problem. So one of the best questions is ball to bore size.

Second, the roughing of the ball simply allows more lube to adhere to the ball. But it also inlarges the ball. Back to ball to bore ratio. What do you start with and than inlarge to? I'm guessing as to the purpose of the foil is to make up any space between ball and bore. I once inquired to a professional mould making company if they could make me a round ball mould with the dimples like a golf ball. After a lengthy discussion, he said the dimples will not make the ball fly any straighter. It only works on golf balls because of the low speeds compared to bullets. It would be a waist of time and money.

Third, Alox? Your guess is as good as mine. I admit it works better than my musket/carbine lube but I also hate it because of the fouling. I can shoot my musket/carbine all day and tommorow without brushing or cleaning and no fouling. Smoothbore with Alox and I have to clean and not just brush after each event. Shooting 10 shots for score and 4-5 sighters and after about 8 it gets mighty tough getting the rest of them down the tube.

I will let everyone in on a little experiment I tried some time back. I took a .72 cal. round ball and put it through several different sizers for a .69 cal smoothbore. Effectively putting a band around the ball. (I don't think there's a rule in the rule book about sizing round balls.)
I tried all kinds of different powder, grains, weights, and lube. Benched the gun and never got a group much better than a dinner plate at 25y. Oh, and I did manage to get a round ball to key hole too.

SO. DSSA'rs. Weigh in.

[Brownie 12th U.S.]

im not a smoothbore master but i have some ideas as to what MAY be going on inside the bore. it would seem a tight fitting ball wont shoot as well as a loose fitting one. could this be because the gas flows around the ball and centers it in the bore? hard to say. but i do know every smoothbore i have had will shoot a looser ball better than a tight one. as for the dimples. i guess if they work for a golf ball they would work on a smoothy ball. the alox seems to work well because it drys hard. unlike a musket where you want the lube to keep the fouling soft the alox remains hard and the fouling is like dust instead of sludge. as for the ball upseting to bore dia. dont count on that. i dont think that happens. it takes a lot to upset a solid lead round ball. the fit that seems to work in my gun is one where the ball barely sits on the muzzle. it practicaly falls down the bore. in fact the very thin coat of alox seems to be the only thing keeping gravity from pulling the ball down the bore. one thing i consider important when working up the ball is to remove the sprue before rolling the ball. you want the ball to be as perfect as you can get it so that as it clears the crown on the muzzle there are no imperfections that will affect the balls flight. shooting a smoothbore is a game where you try to perfect a process then repeat that process over and over. all you have working for you with a smoothbore is the ammo. good ammo will hopefully give you the good shots you are looking for.

hp

Bolded above implies that you are not using wheel weights. Is that standard for most smoothbore shooters? I can't imagine it makes a difference with no rifling to engage. But, I too, am trying to learn what makes these magnificently frustrating beasts work best.

Brownie

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

Well, Olde Man Rouch on my team holds the 25 yd current record and he doesn't post much. If you engage him in a personal one on one, he will answer any question you may want to ask. "I think" he shoots a ball well shaken in a coffee can, once coated in Alox, in front of 45gr of Goex FFFg. Dont know the ball to bore difference, but I do know he shoots an Original H & P and he says the bore is "shootable" but not pristine by any means.

[Edwin Flint]

Jim Lienike wrote an article for the SL several years ago about shooting the SB. Jim Should be given credit for bringing SB forward to its present growth within the NSSA.

While not a DSSA winner, I do have 10 DSSA points in class one. I follow his teachings and do okay.

[Eggman]

So refresh us if you will Ed. What did Big Jim say?? In particular to the questions in post #1.

[Eggman]

DSSA winners welcome. Also anyone else who has put together a string of five or more hits in a row on the line with these things please. From experience -- great ideas can come from anywhere.

[Maillemaker]

Well, the '42 I shot at the last skirmish the balls were simply coated in Alox. They appeared smooth with no file marks. They fit in the barrel snuggly enough that I could feel them compressing air under them as I pushed them down onto the powder during loading.

I put 4 in the black and 1 just oustide it at 25 yards. I bet if I had bought another re-entry I could have done even better.

Unfortunately I did not make up the charges so I don't know what kind or how much powder was in them.

Steve

[Mike Hale]

Do you use the black rubber cartridges and place the RB in the end over the powder like we do for musket loads ( I find this to be a little awkward for loading)....or, do you carry pre weighed charges in tubes and the RB separately....?:confused:

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Jim Lienike and I received the first Smoothbore DSSA's issued in the category at a National few years back. I don't know about what he shoots in his musket but in my H&P converted 1840 Springfield I shoot a close fitting soft ball out of an old Ideal .690 mold and push it with 78 grs of GOEX 2F. Lube is a soft mix of beeswax. Crisco, and olive oil. Ball is loaded into the tube the same as a rifle musket load, sprue down, with half the ball exposed and dipped thrice. No dimples in fact I try to insure that each ball has a clean surface and I weigh them to a few grains either side of nominal. As for bounding down the bore, I have found my soft lead balls in the backstop at my home range and they always have a flat band around them from obturating and filling the bore. Not blowing off or bragging but to make the point at a Gator shoot a few years back I shot a 25 yd 99 with the nine cutting the 10 ring and followed it at the fall Potomac with a 98 of course then went to the Fall National and tried to break the trigger off the musket during the string which really screwed up my scores but that was MY fault and not my load and lube. My scores have fallen a bit in the last year or so but it's been my fault and not my equipment or load. I always have confidence in my musket and ammo

You guys can file away and use the liquid alox, subcaliber hard balls and carbine length little guns but I aint changing a thing.

K.I.S.S

Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

[efritz]

Finally, expertise weighing in. Many thanks to Jim. Maybe this will help some of the others. But.
Personally, I need the real info for those shooting 90+ at 50 yd. I like Jim got some of my points early on. It's the only gun I don't have the DSSA for. But 50 yards is my self professed down fall. I also obtained those points with a 1842 repro with close fitting smooth ball, 80 grs. 3f GOEX, and a lube similar to Jims'. A few years ago I purchased an H&P and haven't been able to break into the SB agg. with it. I can hang with the pack at 25y. but get left behind at 50y. I feel technology has passed me by in some fashion.

I think that may be true with many shooters. 25y and your in the game but get separated at 50y.
So, can I narrow the request for the 50y 90+ shooters to way in?

Jim, thanks again.

[John Holland]

OK Fellas....Here is the "Elephant in the Room". As Chairman of the Small Arms Committee (SAC) I receive no less than 850 SAC emails per year, plus uncounted PM's off the BB, and some 100 + phone calls. Do you want to know why the high scores are being turned in? Here is the latest "Grassy Knoll Conspiracy Theory". The high scores are due to CHEATING ! ! ! Yep, you heard me right! In case you don't know it, the people winning are having their smooth bored muskets "SCRATCH RIFLED" ! ! ! Yep, light rifling that can hardly be noticed by the naked eye! This started about two years ago. There is another whispered rumor says the barrels are being "Straight Rifled", by having a cutter drag faint straight lines in the bore, which look like simple scratches, and cause a round ball to go perfectly straight! But, wait! We're not done yet! Just this past weekend I heard yet another "Grassy Knoll Theory". Because the word was out on "SCRATCH RIFLING", and "Straight Rifling", now the "Cheaters" are having the bores rifled for just the first 4 to 6 inches at the breech, so when a light is dropped down the barrel it won't be able to be seen!

You know what I have to say....SERIOUSLY ? ? ? Good Lord....did any of you ever drop a round ball down the bore of a rifle musket and shoot it? Before you continue on this road to self-induced paranoia....Try it! It doesn't work! You want better scores? Work harder at it!

Here's what I'm being told by these "Conspiracy Theorists"...."YOU have to do something about this!" No, I don't, because first of all it is an IG issue, and secondly, here is how it really works. If YOU think someone is cheating it is up to YOU to file the protest. Just because YOU don't want YOUR finger prints on it, don't think we're going to throw your "Mud Ball" for you! So, either stop whining, or step up to the plate and work harder at shooting better!

John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Holy Crap John. You better hope they never learn about LANCASTER OVAL BORE RIFLING. Sometimes it's almost invisible!

Hope this helps

Your Friend

Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

[hwaugh]

John, I wasn't the one to let the "secret" about the oval bore rifling out of the bag...It may be too late to put it back in the bag. Oh, by the way, your oval bore H & P that you ordered, will be ready at the Fulton shoot.

Harry Waugh - 3731 - Terry's Texas Rangers

[Michael T.]

I know how they get those good scores-----PRACTICE!http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[John Holland]

I love you guys!

JDH

[Mike McDaniel]

Practice? Practice! Heaven forfend!

Seriously, a couple of points.

You'll see stippled round balls used over on the International side for smoothbores. It's all about drag...a stippled round ball has lower drag, like a golf ball. It's due to a more turbulent boundary layer reducing base drag (and if you want details, allow me to recommend a good Aerospace Engineering college).

As to scratch rifling, I can't speak to our smoothbore muskets, but it was known to be used on some duelling pistols. But the error budget on a pistol is dominated by the shooter. I've seen test targets shot with a repro smoothbore that have a 13-shot group less than 1.5 inches across.

Practice. Practice. Then practice some more. It's just like revolver. I shoot good revolver scores because I practice.

[Maillemaker]

For any kind of firearm, my first order of business is shooting off of a bench to see how accurate the firearm is.

Once you have developed a load that gives you the best consistent group, after that it's all up to you to hold still and let the firearm do it's job.

But first you have to have confidence in the equipment off the bench. If you don't have consistency off the bench, you'll never have it shooting off hand.

Steve

[John Holland]

Thank you, everyone, for understanding my point. The successful shooters are successful because they practice....all the time. Smoothbore is no different than any other shooting discipline, if you want to excell in it you are going to have to work at it. Do these guys you are going up against have a lot of raw talent? You bet they do! But, don't give up because each and every one of us has the ability to shoot very well if we are diligent in our efforts. I recently had a "B Team" shooter tell me he wished he could make the "A Team". I told him to practice more. His reply was "I can't, it costs too much." Don't think the top shooters spare any expense when it comes to practice. Yes, it is expensive, and if you want to be in the Winners Circle you know what you have to do!

John

[Maillemaker]

And of course, every hobby is going to have its expenses, and not everyone can indulge in every hobby. But once you get beyond the cost of the firearms, N-SSA shooting isn't that terrible.

Powder from Back Creek Gun shop is $15 a pound. Pure lead from Rotometals is $2 a pound. Primers from Back Creek Gun Shop are $73 per 1000.

Assuming a 50 grain charge (.007 pounds), and a 530 grain bullet (.076 pounds) and a primer, you get the following cost per shot:

Powder: $.015
Bullet: $.152
Primer: $.073
--------------
Total: $.24 per shot.

If you go to the range and shoot 100 rounds, you'll be out about $25 in bullet materials. Of course there are other expenses like lube, patches, Ballistol, and oil, so figure $30 for an afternoon of shooting.

There aren't many hobbies left where you can spend an afternoon doing something for $30.

If my bullet catcher works, and I think it will, it is going to negate my practice lead costs, as I will recycle my bullets. That brings the cost per shot down to about $.09, which means you can go shoot 100 shots for about $10.

Steve

[P A Laake 10798]

I shoot an H&P that I put together using a Bobby Hoyt barrel that has a .687" bore. I use a Tanner mould that casts balls at .672". With smoothbores with .690" bores I use another Tanner mould that cast balls at .675", so I'm shooting balls that are .015" under bore size. I roll the balls between two files....one is a large flat-bastard mill file and the other is what I'd call a medium cut wood/metal rasp. I coat the balls with liquid Alox and roll-on another coat the next day. I ain't got a clue as to why it works, but it works pretty good for me. In a clean bore, the first ball will fall all the way down the bore...after that the weight of the ramrod will take the balls down for awhile. When the bore collects more fouling I have to use a little pressure the seat the balls, but I can shoot an entire team event without wiping or brushing. Also, I make up my loads with 60 grs. 3F Goex in the black vinyl tubes and plug the end with a lubbed ball.

[Mike McDaniel]

I'll let you in on my Great Big Secret.

Air pistol.

Shooting is a relatively fungible skill. If you can shoot one rifle well, you can shoot any rifle passably, provided it shoots straight at all. Ditto for pistol.

Now, a mid-grade air pistol (not the plinker grade, you won't learn anything with that) will set you back about $600. Match-grade pellets are $12 for a tin of 500. Shoot 20 shots per session, three or four practice sessions per week. Every week - I repeat, every week.

Then add in a weekly practice with your Skirmish gun.

You'll get results - and will be shocked at how well you shoot.

[hp gregory]

if im not mistaken all smoothbore barrels were checked early on. i guess they didnt find much because they stopped doing it. i have had a number of smoothys and everyone of them would shoot pretty good if you spent the time it takes to get the load done correctly. the H&P i have now has a hoyt replacement barrel. im told by a lot of folks an orignal barrel shoots even better. if thats the case then they must shoot pretty dam good. there are a lot folks that have figured smoothbores out and their performance proves it. its not unusual to clean a smoothbore team event these days. in fact on our team it happens quite often. theres no big secret to it any longer. proper ball to bore fit, a thin coat of alox and 45 grns of swiss makes our smoothbores do as good as we can hold them. at least 4 people on our team have topped 25 points in individuals and we have placed well in the national team events. so for the record a regular old smoothbore will shoot well enough to do anything that needs doing. you still gota hold and aim it. and thats where the challenge realy is. there isnt any magic potion or a super dooper barrel that will make up for hard work and dedication.

hp

[efritz]

Ah, Thank you Mr Laake. You've provided the required numbers of bore to bullet ratio, approx. .15 under bore size. I assumed as much that it would be somewhere in that vacinity, but I didn't want to buy a bunch of different moulds. I've been using a .678 Lyman in a Hoyt .687. I'll be in touch with Mr. Tanner. I too have some of his moulds and like them very much. Not Lyman, RCBS quality but very functional.

As for the so called cheating. I would find it very hard to believe that Bob Hoyt or any other barrel facilitator would make such a barrel for the expressed cause of cheating. I know the 3 things of good marksmanship of practice, practice, practice. But I also have learned through shooting 3 and 4 position indoor/outdoor .22 competition since I was nine years old (some 45 years) and skirmishing about the same that you are going to be only as good as your equipment. Believe me. I have tried and tried and tried to accurize my H&P for 50yd, but haven't been able. It was a matter of being on the right path. Mr. Laake has provided that for me. .15 thousandths. Who'da thunk it...

[P A Laake 10798]

Make sure it's around .015" and not .15" !!!!! Also, I shoot 60 grs. 3F Goex because it puts me on target...the less powder I shoot the higher it shoots for some reason. I assume its because with a lesser powder charge, the muzzle is coming up before the ball exits.???

[Eggman]

Love all the "how to" comments. Still am kind of wondering about the "what happens" stuff. Can we not get indicators without resorting to the high tech equipment? I know some of you proficient guys will occasionally shoot into a soft back stop. What do the balls look like? And from that, what are they doing as they travel down the bore: rubbing the sides (scrape marks on the sides)?? centered like HP thinks (almost pristine with black powder scortch) ?? Better yet, why don't one of you guys buy a super high speed camera and shoot some pictures back toward the barrel just as the ball exits (a precaution or two might be in order here).
I gotta think a lot of this has already been done. Can we get it posted here?

[rachbobo]

Love all the "how to" comments. Still am kind of wondering about the "what happens" stuff. Can we not get indicators without resorting to the high tech equipment? I know some of you proficient guys will occasionally shoot into a soft back stop. What do the balls look like? And from that, what are they doing as they travel down the bore: rubbing the sides (scrape marks on the sides)?? centered like HP thinks (almost pristine with black powder scortch) ?? Better yet, why don't one of you guys buy a super high speed camera and shoot some pictures back toward the barrel just as the ball exits (a precaution or two might be in order here).
I gotta think a lot of this has already been done. Can we get it posted here?

I'd suggest talking to a major league catcher who deals with Knuckle Ball Pitchers, Hoyt Wilhelm and alike.
The non spinning Knuckle Ball bobs and floats where ever it will just like a ball from a smoothbore.
I guess that's why catchers put on a large glove when trying to catch a Knuckle Ball.

Bill Cheek
Cockade Rifles

[Eggman]

You're blowing my mind Bill.

[Eggman]

My mind "races" back to those balmy days out on the prairie with the old smooth bore trade musket. Unlike N-SSAers, the round ballers patch the round ball in their smoothbores, so the ball comes out nice and straight with absolutely no spin. With this system I have been able to hit an old five gallon oil can consistently at ten yards, but nothing else (I should mention there is a sight problem here also -- namely none). But anyway, in my mind the shots were wildly inconsistant. Maybe it wasn't just the man behind the gun after all Bill. Maybe it was the Hoyt Wilhelm affect. Do I dare say the smoothbore guys need to find a way to put some rotation on the ball??????? Could it be that's what the dimples do?????????????

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Ah, Thank you Mr Laake. You've provided the required numbers of bore to bullet ratio, approx. .15 under bore size. I assumed as much that it would be somewhere in that vacinity, but I didn't want to buy a bunch of different moulds. I've been using a .678 Lyman in a Hoyt .687. I'll be in touch with Mr. Tanner. I too have some of his moulds and like them very much. Not Lyman, RCBS quality but very functional.

As for the so called cheating. I would find it very hard to believe that Bob Hoyt or any other barrel facilitator would make such a barrel for the expressed cause of cheating. I know the 3 things of good marksmanship of practice, practice, practice. But I also have learned through shooting 3 and 4 position indoor/outdoor .22 competition since I was nine years old (some 45 years) and skirmishing about the same that you are going to be only as good as your equipment. Believe me. I have tried and tried and tried to accurize my H&P for 50yd, but haven't been able. It was a matter of being on the right path. Mr. Laake has provided that for me. .15 thousandths. Who'da thunk it...


My original bore runs .695 after having had a light honing and my Ideal mold says .690 but throws .689 with soft lead. With the soft beeswax/Crisco/olive oil lube mix it runs great during a match. Don't think I really need to but I always put the butt up and run a brush through after every relay no matter how many shots I fire. The bore see's no cleaning until days end.

Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

[John Holland]

When there's a one relay smoothbore match, and everyone's brushing & cleaning between events, who's hanging the targets?

[Eggman]

An "inbetween" bore wipe takes eleven seconds. Among the plethora of wipes, it's one of the quickest.

[Maillemaker]

When there's a one relay smoothbore match, and everyone's brushing & cleaning between events, who's hanging the targets?

No one, until everyone's done brushing and cleaning. :)

Steve

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Has anyone ever considered that when you shove a damp patch down the bore of a front stuffer you are jamming all the crud down onto the face of the breechplug? Lefty advised me against doing that and some of you old guys know how he can be.


Just a thought.


Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

[Maillemaker]

Has anyone ever considered that when you shove a damp patch down the bore of a front stuffer you are jamming all the crud down onto the face of the breechplug? Lefty advised me against doing that and some of you old guys know how he can be.

This is true, and this is why you should use a breach scraper to get that crud off of the face of the breech plug. Otherwise it can build up as a coke deposit that can glow and cause a cookoff.

But I think it's a necessary tradeoff. Firstly, sometimes you just can't put any more bullets down the barrel after the foulilng builds up sufficiently.

Secondly, you want good clean crisp rifling for your bullet to engage, to get good accuracy.

I put three wet patches and two dry ones down the barrel after every course of fire. I don't go for "white patch" clean, just clean enough.

Steve

[hp gregory]

jim i saw a jag design that roundball shooters used to keep from pushing the crud into the breech. it had a smaller dia front section that extended out about 1 inch in front of the rear section that gripped the patch. as this jag pushes down the crud is built up on the shoulder of the larger dia section and captured on the patch. a properly dampened patch will melt the crud and the jag will capture a lot more than regular ones. if you think about it a brush does pretty much does the same thing as a regular jag. maybe not as much but its still shovin a lota crud down the breech. i guess the trick is to keep the gun going off so it will burn up the crud on the next shot. uh1s rule

hp

[jd2ndvainf]

How is Lefty doing in the HOME ?

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

HP,

Whether rifle or smooth I always brush with the muzzle down. I figured that I want the crud out of the bore and it does work and follows the brush out of the muzzle. The only one of my shooters that sees a patch on the line is my Henry or Wesson. I do use a scraper on my rifle stuff. When I clean the H&P at days end I use a tube and pump the patent breech clean. Works well.


John,

Lefty appreciates your asking and says he is quite content but still likes to play with LUBE. I try to keep him under control. You know how he can get.

Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

[John Holland]

This has all been very interesting! The nearly 1,600 views in such a short period of time shows there is still a healthy interest in smoothbore shooting.

I'm also glad to see that's all it took to get Jim & Lefty out from wherever they've been lounging about was a good old discussion on smoothbores!

JDH

[RonT]

Ya' found me out...I'm one of the 1600 viewers but haven't chimed in due to caliber. But, assuming a smoothie is a smoothy, here's my setup.
The rifle is a .375 flinter that I built for Squirrel hunting from a barrel and stock gifted from a Lodge Brother. No idea who made the barrel*. I use a .360 ball, sprue up, and a ~.012 patch on top of a ~3/8" homemade wad (Blown in insulation with a tad of sprayed on PAM to make it somewhat cohesive) over 40 gr. 2ff.
25 years of making Cold Drawn DOM steel tubes (Welded and Seamless) has rubbed off some expertise of what a smooth I.D. looks like....my barrel is that.
I've considered straight rifling but haven't gotten around to it yet....my not do it at all. Something in my mind sez don't put scratches in a perfectly good barrel.
Cheers,
R
*Numerich? It 'sparks' in the 1020 range.

[John Holland]

Welcome aboard! A muzzle loaded smoothbore is a muzzle loaded smoothbore, no matter the caliber. I am interested in your method because I shoot a lot of other smoothbore things, all flinters, and not just just military skirmish arms. How far out does your patch and wad drop off?

JDH

[RonT]

No idea. It is my Squirrel gun. The wad becomes one with nature and will assume the patches become stuck in the branches or ~<10 yds. if that. Once I sighted it in (actually a smooth rifle) years ago I just went huntin'.
In the spirit of the thread I offered my load (wad/patch/barrel condition) for consideration.
Cheers,
R
http://i46.tinypic.com/2vis7xe.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/sux4z5.jpg

[Bob Elka, 12001]

Working midnites I should be sleeping. I awoke, found myself parked in front of the puter reading this thread front to back. I've had phenominal success with a couple smoothies and yea like many I have my theories
and beliefs into what makes these fire breathing works of the devil so intriguing. Aint to much into the personal bragging soap box game but thought I'd offer a little to those interested and also make a few well deserved points.
John I nearly fell off my chair reading your post and yes I did have a fella accuse me of firing a smoothy with an "altered bore" awhile back. I did not know the fella but he did it in front of a small crowd after I had just fired a
good target and he appeared to not be joking. I responded by offering him my weapon and my ammo as surely my results were from the equipment not personal ability.He declined. I am certain that some if not all of my early success with a smoothy
is 100% attributed to HP Gregory loaning me one of the various smoothbore rifles he went thru trying to achieve some sort of consistancy. ANYONE that wishes to deviate from the info he has provided here is certainly welcome to do so
but keep in mind that man has a track record and is openly providing you a look into what was endless hours of painstaking work all in an attempt to just shoot respectable scores with a smoothy on a consistant basis.
He openly admits and rightfully so to give credit to P.A Laake and others for planting the seed that has taken the smoothbore from just a guessing game to a game of precision accuracy. Early on it was pointed out to me that
with absolutely no major enhancements available to the weapon all success will come from proper ammo. I'm WAY too busy to worry about infomercials but yes many of those experiencing success are using my moulds and the sprue
cutter HP dreamed up seems to be an accuracy improvement. It really isn't a guessing game as thru all this i have a list of do's and a list of don'ts. Some have success with items in my "don't" column but each weapon is different and some
definitions of success can vary. All I'm saying is believe what you want, enjoy experimenting with the hope of finding that perfect smoothy recipe. But when you get info from an HP Gregory, Mike Rouch or any of the others that are regulars
on the top of the agg sheet start there first. It's 50 yds boyz and girls. I've placed in the agg with short guns, long guns, rear sight, no rear sight it's ALL in the ammo and how it and you can perform at 50 yds.........
The secret? A quality roundball,from wheelweights, knurled between files, ball to bore clearance AFTER filing .006 - .010", 45gr of your choice and the ability to hold harder than woodpecker lipz!!!

[John Holland]

Great post, Bobby! You, HP, Brady, Mike Rouch, and PA, have always been willing to help the rest of us enjoy the game, and I thank you.

I'm glad you got a kick out of my "Rant". I figured it was about time to put all the whispered rumors into print! Having someone accuse you, of all people, of modifying a smoothbore barrel just made my point!

John

[hp gregory]

bobby always tells it like it is. one thing that always impressed me about friendship was that the shooters i had read about in books were still out there hangin and bangin. being a young whipper snapper at the time i was in awe of them. but you know what, they were just regular folks that loved to shoot just like me. i was introduced to them by my mentor elwood cullers. he was kind enough to take his time and take me around to meet all these folks. when they found out i could shoot a little bit and that i was interested in learning they would sit down and talk with me for hours. you see they werent concerned about some new guy beating them. hell they had won more matches than they could remember. they meerly wanted to pass on their knowlege to someone who would use it. they did this so it wouldnt be lost. they all did this to better the sport.
i have to laugh about the secret barrel mods. i know bobbys smoothy pretty well. he beats me with it most of the time. its just a rough old H&P with a hoyt barrel just like mine. i have a nice little snake camera if anyone would like to take a peak at either one of ours. the secret to how they shoot are in his custom molds and sprue cutters. the last time i checked near perfect workmanship isnt against the rules.
the guy i consider to be the father of good shooting smoothys is PA lakee. he had things figured out many years ago and he still shoots impressive scores. but im sure there are others that have figured out the game. mr brady certainly can back up what he says. as can bobby, the thornes, mr rouch and many many others. so there seems to realy be more than one way to skin a cat. the one thing i have learned is that smoothbore shooting has become the most competitive gun of our sport. i think it has been good for the NSSA not to mention being a lot of fun to boot.

hp

[efritz]

I can 2nd that emotion, HP. SB is a hoot. Many times I can tell if I hit something even before I come down off of recoil by the sound. And that's saying something considering I wear two hearing aids when not shooting and ear plugs when I am. If one can master 50y revolver and 50y SB, the rest of the targets really don't even have to earn a medal. Just keep you in the game. For whatever reasons I've been able to handle 25y SB but 50Y is where I had been seeking some help. My theory was my equipment didn't have enough time to deviate from the time it left the barrel to target at 25y. But when it came to 50y, the bottom dropped out of its accuracy. I had thought all along that I was undersized enough at approx. .010 but Mr Laake took it to .015. My mould is due to arrive any day now from Mr. Tanner. I'll give it try and post the results hear.

[theroot1]

I think HP gave you some pretty sound advice, as also repeated often by Bobby Elka. I have an original HP and the bore is so so but it will shoot in the 90's at 50 yrds if I do my part. its ugly but the load info makes it shine.

Don

[tmont]

Gentlemen:

I have been reading with great interest all the excellent information you provided on the SB topic (to add to the knowledge gleaned on many topics), and wanted to extend a personal thank you for sharing your expertise. I've been around shooting sports for about 50 years now, but am new to BP and N-SSA. I have long admired the Civil War era weapons, but just never had the chance to mess much with them due to family obligations, earning a living and all those other pesky distractions of life.

One of the most endearing aspects of N-SSA membership is the willingness of you experienced and successful shooters to share the results of your experimentation and expertise with all of us rookie competitors. By doing so, you allow us to experience better shooting results faster, which increases our enthusiasm and participation in the sport. I cannot begin to estimate how much time and frustration you have saved me.

My daddy used to tell me if you gotta go through a minefield, follow somebody. Thanks for leading.

[John Holland]

Very kind words, Tom, I'm glad you're enjoying the experience.

I have been an active member of the N-SSA for a very long time. But, also in my lifetime of shooting I have participated in many other shooting disciplines from Hi-Power, to Primitive, to Cowboy Action. Well, that is except for Trap & Skeet.... not that I didn't try it, but I hate things that won't stand still long enough for me to aim at them! My experience in those other shooting sports is that almost no one will offer any advice to you because you just might beat them. One time, way back in the Dark Ages when I was about 17 years old, I was shooting a long range black powder cartridge match, and during a break in relays I asked one of the top shots what he used for a .45-70 load. Good Lord! You would have thought I had asked him for his PIN number! I had already been shooting in the N-SSA for 3 years by then and thought everyone in shooting sports would be as helpful as the people I had met in the N-SSA. Boy, was I wrong!

I will say unequivocally that the N-SSA is absolutely unique in that everyone wants to help you shoot better! You can be sure if you're having trouble someone will offer some well meant heartfelt advice, even if it means you may fire a better score than them.

John

[kowdok]

Hi Bobby
I think I sent you a PM, but since it didn't show up in my sent box, I'm asking here if you would get in touch with me about SB molds and the sprue cutter?
My email address is jjjrogers@abts.net
Thanks
Jim Rogers

[Jim Leinicke 7368V]

Okay, I am a DSSA with the smoothbore, although I am not sure how I got there. And I suspect that I am to blame for the liquid Alox thing. etc. etc. The simple fact is that early on when I was promoting the idea of a Nationals smoothbore competition, I recommended using liquid Alox on roughened ball because it gave a nice waxy coating that seemed to help in loading and presumably helped with blow-by. Rolling them in a bit of melted beeswax does the same thing quicker. I don't notice any difference in accuracy without it, but I believe I get more rounds off before fouling sets in with the wax coating so I still do it.

I learned the roughened ball trick from the guys on the US International flintlock musket team in years when I was stictly a rock-scratcher and long before I started popping percussion caps. Some say the dimples help steady the ball in flight, like on a golfball, while others claim the little raised whiskers help center the ball in the bore. I haven't a clue who is correct, but rolling them between a couple of files enhances accuracy and that is good enough for me.

Like HP Gregory and others, I have found that a bore size ball will not do as well as a looser one with .005"-007" windage. I have not really found much loss of accuracy going down the .010"-.012", although that is a bit sloppy. If the accuracy declines loading a smaller ball, use more powder and things pick up again. HP may be on to something with his theory, but my thought on this is pretty simple: If the ball is tight enough to require any thumping with the ramrod, then the ball gets knocked a bit out of round and that screws it up. I like my ball loose enough to push down easily even with modest fouling. If I have to thump it to seat it, I can guarantee a not so great shot. A round 1 ounce musket ball will do its best to expand to the diameter of the barrel when you light the fire under it, and so it is not coming out the muzzle as a perfect sphere. However, you don't want it to also have a big flat spot on top from the ramrod.

As for powders, I keep changing my mind. I formerly used 70-80 grains of GOEX 2fg, then swithched to 60 of GOEX 3fg, then played with Swiss in all grades and charges. Lately I have been trying KIK, which is a whole lot cheaper and seems to be a very consistent smoothbore powder. One thing to remember is that the slower the burn rate and the larger the charge, the more of the energy will transmit to your barrel in the form of heat, and heat makes heatwaves which are a killer for a gun with no rear sight. N-SSA type shooting with 10 shots fired for score, for instance, has forced me to think in terms of reduced charges of faster burning powders in my old 1842 model, even though I still think really large charges of slow powder deliver the best accuracy ( I have had more than one British smoothbore master tell me that you have to go up to at least 100 grains of coarse powder to really get a smoothie going, and I wouldn't recommend that for our type of shooting).

Jim Leinicke
7368V

[tmont]

Jim: KIK powder? Mind sharing what that is? First I have heard of it. Thanks in advance.

[Maillemaker]

Are the ArmiSport 1842s decent shooters out of the box these days?

Steve

[John Holland]

I haven't heard anything negative about them!

JDH

[tmont]

Bobby: I also had sent you a PM regarding the sprue cutters which does not show up in my sent folder.
Please drop me an email at: tmont1950@yahoo.com when you get a chance, I would like to purchase one.
Thanks in advance.

[Johnny Hatfield 11984]

I have read all these post on the SB and my theroy is to get a good mould from Bob Elka This will be one thing that will have no ? on. As far as undersize I have tried just about all from rasping to dimple and sizeing. I shoot a 680 ball (BOB ELKA) in a H&P that has a bore of 70.3 this is 20 Thousands under size with 70g of ff goex with GBS lube for about 4 years now and have a great hit racial with this. This is what the gun likes after all my testing. My friend Mike Rouse suggest that I try it with alox so I did and the results was Impressing. It's nice to have friends in the n-ssa to share there years of experince with you. From my experince at 50 yd with a SB is to pratice, pratice, practice. The same at a 100yd with the other guns they will kick your ass. We all no matches are won at 50ys with a SB an 100 yd with Carbine, Musket exc.... So to get a bullet to work in a gun is to purchase a good Mould either From Bob Elka or from Mike Owsiak, and a powder load from 42-45g 3f for musket, 26-34g carbine and 45-55g 3f for SB with alox or GBS lube from Donald lester from the 34th Va.or you can pick it up at miami valley sutlers for the other guns. In my testing there is only 2 lubes Alox or GBS lube. The rest is up to the shooter is to how good He/she won't to shoot. Pratice,and more Pratice, and when posbile go to as many regional shoots as you can as this will get you more prepared for the Nat's.

[Jim Leinicke 7368V]

Jim: KIK powder? Mind sharing what that is? First I have heard of it. Thanks in advance.

KIK is a Slovenian-made blackpowder. Like Swiss, it is an alder-based blackpowder, which means that it burns pretty moist. The stuff is dusty and dirty looking compared to those nice, clean glazed grains of Swiss, and it is not very dense. In my limited experience with the stuff, I have been impressed that the fouling (Although abundant) is not at all gummy and accuracy has been quite good. My muskets clean easier with this stuff than they do with either Swiss or GOEX. So far, my impression is that it has roughly the same strength as GOEX if loaded equally by weight. It is much less dense, however, and an equal measure by weight is going to mean a greater measure by volume. Anyway, it seems to be a pretty good powder, although I confess that I am still experimenting with it. The nice thing is that it is relatively cheap (About $12 a pound delivered). I have loaded up my rifle cartridges with it for an upcoming skirmish in Wisconsin, so I will soon know what it does in rifled arms.

Jim Leinicke
7368V

[tmont]

Thanks, Jim! Good information and will be interested to see how it works for you. Are you ordering through Powder Inc?

[Jim Leinicke 7368V]

Yeah, Tom. I had a couple of pounds from a guy in Wisconsin, and liked it well enough to order a keg from Powder, Inc. It is too early for me to give an unqualified endorsement of the stuff, however. Ask me a couple of skirmishes down the road! If I don't like it, I know plenty of reenactors who will.

To get a bit back on subject, some of our better smoothbore shooters around here have been burning about 50 grains of Swiss 2fg in their smoothies, but one of the best has stayed with 70 grains of GOEX 3fg. Up north they seem to like 60 grains of KIK 3fg. Any powder that burns consistently under low pressure works fine in a smoothbore gun, but sometimes a change in propellant is necessary to overcome a specific problem. I have a '42 that shoots low, no matter what. I changed from 50 of 2fg Swiss to a smaller but faster burning charge of 45 of 3fg Swiss and the group rose up right on target at 50 yards. Smoothies are more art than science, methinks!


Jim L

[tmont]

Thanks, Jim. I am dealing with the same issue on my 42. Shoots about 4-5" low at 50 with 60grs Swiss 2F or Goex 3F. May follow your lead and see if that helps raise the POI. They are interesting beasts, aren't they? You coming to Brierfield in August?

[hwaugh]

Since this discussion on smoothbores has covered a wide range of practices, I wanted to add my take on shooting the ole smoothies. A number of years ago Jim Leinicke wrote an article in the Skirmish Line on how to make aluminum foil wrapped cartridges. I followed Jim's advice and began shooting my 1851 Cadet with the foil cartridge. I liked the results and with a little tweaking have found this method to be the best for my Cadet. I have tried all the other ideas presented here at one time or another but I keep coming back to what Jim discussed those many years ago. I never thanked Jim for his advoce and would like to thank Jim formally at this time..."Thanks Jim!" Your willingness to share and be an innovator of ideas is greatly appreciated.

Harry Waugh - 3731 - Terry's Texas Rangers.

[Mike Hale]

I thought that loads had to be prepared like musket....pre-measured powder in a tube, then the lubed ball, but no tin foil coverings or patches on the ball?

Does that also mean that we cannot place a felt wad over the powder charge and ball on top of that?

Now, that I have read the rule, can someone provide Jim's article again?

[John Holland]

Please read Rule 17.1.1, your questions about tin foil are answered there. You can read the Rules online http://www.n-ssa.org/NATIONAL/RulesJan2012.pdf

John Holland
I.G Corps

[Maillemaker]

Tin foil. It's not just for hats anymore! :)

Steve

[hp gregory]

wow what a great thread. if anyone wants to get into smoothy shooting all the info they will ever need is here. its good to see so many folks offer up their shooting secrets. it makes for a healthy sport. it would be nice to see the same interest shown for the other guns we play with.

hp

[kowdok]

I promise that HP didn't solicit this, but if you want to be the best you can be with revolver, get a HP Gregory accurized R&S and practice like hell and keep your fingers crossed that Pedersoli will pick up the production of the Rogers & Spencer.

[John Holland]

Yes, a superb thread that has broken all records for "Views". The interest is fantastic! It shows that smoothbore shooting is certainly not on the decline.

As for the R&S, my understanding is that all of the Euroarms revolver tooling went to Pietta. Pedersoli got all of the longarms tooling.

John

[Mike McDaniel]

I promise that HP didn't solicit this, but if you want to be the best you can be with revolver, get a HP Gregory accurized R&S and practice like hell and keep your fingers crossed that Pedersoli will pick up the production of the Rogers & Spencer.
Pedersoli already makes both a repro R&S and a repro Remington. Good guns, too.

[Maillemaker]

Pedersoli already makes both a repro R&S and a repro Remington. Good guns, too.

Who sells the Pedersoli 1858 Remington? And I assume it is N-SSA approved?

Steve

[hp gregory]

is anyone stocking and selling the new rogers. if anyone has seen one how does it compare to the euro rogers. i thought they made all of them and just put other companys names on them. out of all the low end revolvers i have looked inside of the euro rogers was the best made by far. fantastic revolvers for the money

hp

[gimpyinlincoln]

Practice? Practice! Heaven forfend!

Seriously, a couple of points.

You'll see stippled round balls used over on the International side for smoothbores. It's all about drag...a stippled round ball has lower drag, like a golf ball. It's due to a more turbulent boundary layer reducing base drag (and if you want details, allow me to recommend a good Aerospace Engineering college).

As to scratch rifling, I can't speak to our smoothbore muskets, but it was known to be used on some duelling pistols. But the error budget on a pistol is dominated by the shooter. I've seen test targets shot with a repro smoothbore that have a 13-shot group less than 1.5 inches across.

Practice. Practice. Then practice some more. It's just like revolver. I shoot good revolver scores because I practice.

Some data and observations to contribute to the discussion.

I've pasted a small part of an article on my testing of smooth vs. dimpled balls that will be published in the Nov/Dec issue of Muzzleloader Magazine. I've started with the last paragraph of the conclusions as it agrees with "Practice. Practice."

"Finally, any marginal difference in accuracy between frosted and smooth balls is obviated if the fundamentals of good shooting are not executed. It seems to us, all else being equal, the intangible of the confidence of the shooter might be the greatest contributor to accuracy. In which case it probably makes little or no difference whether one shoots smooth or dimpled balls. Shooting is very much a mental game. In other words, one must believe (have confidence) in his/her ability, equipment, and components to achieve the best result."

Here's the introduction.

Do Dimples Make a Difference?

Herman Karl and George Morrison

In a letter (September/October 2011 Muzzleloader) commenting on the May/June 2011 article, Taming of the Sprue, by Fred Stutzenberger, Norman Thomas stated that cast round balls rolled between two sharpening stones were more accurate than smooth balls. He did not specify how he determined they were more accurate or the degree of difference in accuracy. Nonetheless, we found his observation interesting and we wondered why that would be the case. Thomas thought that the balls, which he described as having “tiny dimples like on golf balls”, grabbed the patching better. Eric Bye (2013, 43) briefly discusses the effects of dimpling or frosting (roughing the surface) on round balls. He states frosting has been known for 200 or more years and attributes three benefits to it: "...lofting (as with dimples in a golf ball); a tighter fit inside the barrel; and more reliable cohesion between ball and patch" and suggests that dimpled balls may be more accurate. Bye did not report comparative results between round and frosted balls yet he states that the balls must be uniformly frosted with no smooth spots to avoid erratic flight, which implies testing has been done.[1] (http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/#_ftn1) We are aware of one test. Jim Van Eldik (2015) compared the difference in accuracy between what he termed stippled round balls (their texture is between our frosted and coarse dimpled balls) and smooth round balls. His results were dramatic with the stippled balls grouping much more tightly than the round balls. As discussed in appendix C available on the web archive (see footnote 3) we were unable to replicate his results.
Golf balls are dimpled for a reason, which has to do with aerodynamic flow. Owing to differences between laminar (smooth ball) and turbulent (dimpled ball) flow, dimpled golf balls can go twice as far as smooth balls. This positive effect is offset, however, by the fact that dimples cause a greater deviation from the true flight path of the ball when it is hit poorly. In other words, the amount of slice and hook will be greater. However, this is true only for a symmetrical pattern of dimples. In the 1970s, a company discovered that dimples arranged asymmetrically caused the ball to fly straighter. The pattern they developed worked so well that the balls were banned from sanctioned play.
Given the potential benefits of frosted balls, it's surprising, at least to our knowledge, no methodical tests have been reported demonstrating those benefits (Van Eldik fired only one five-shot smooth ball and one five-shot stippled ball group). One would think if the frosted balls provide a tangible increase in accuracy they would be preferred over smooth balls in competition. This article reports the results of tests (20 trials) comparing the accuracy (as defined by size of the group of a string of shots) of smooth round balls vs. dimpled round balls.[2] (http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/#_ftn2) Our tests are not scientifically rigorous. That is we did not design an experiment to run sufficient trials to do a robust statistical analysis. The results of our cursory testing are descriptive and we believe informative. Our results suggest dimpled balls are less accurate in rifles and provide a marginal increase in accuracy in smoothbores. The dimpled balls fit tighter in the bore. We had no way to test the presumption of greater adhesion between ball and patch.

[1] (http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/#_ftnref1) In email correspondence June 8, 2015 Eric Bye told me the information in his book is “…anecdotal and based on a statistically insufficient sample.”

[2] (http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/#_ftnref2) When we use the term “dimpled” we are not differentiating among the three classes (frosted, coarse, and banded) of roughened balls discussed herein. It is used as an inclusive term for a roughened ball. We adopted the term as a matter of convenience based on Thomas’s letter.

With respect to the aerodynamic properties of the two classes of balls:

Doppler Radar Trials
As stated in the introduction the different aerodynamic characteristics of smooth and dimpled golf balls have a significant effect on their flight paths. At our request, Luke Haag, criminologist, Forensic Science Services, Carefree, Arizona performed ballistic tests comparing smooth and roughened balls using Doppler radar (see website appendix D). He examined .535”, .595”, and .735” diameter balls. The Doppler radar technique allows calculation of the ballistic coefficient (BC) of the projectile. The frosted balls have a slightly higher BC and the coarse balls a slightly lower BC than the corresponding smooth balls. A projectile with a higher BC is more aerodynamically efficient; it will retain greater velocity and energy down range than a projectile with a lower BC. However, the BC is not a predictor of accuracy.

[Eggman]

Most pleased to see this discussion continuing thru a wider audience. Practice is important of course but that's why we test off the bench to reduce the human variable as much as possible. Since this string ran its course I've again scratched the smoothbore itch and bought a '42 repro for N-SSA use. Results with this gun mirrored the bench test with the trade gun. At the spring national I went 4/4 (pigeon board), 3/3 (hanging tiles), 2/4 (hanging clays), and 3/6 (50 yd tiles). That's like 71%. I managed to shoot my way onto the Forrest Escort A team which not too long ago won the national championship. (As a side note, last spring, shooting with the Escort scrub team, we successfully up-ended the varsity thus becoming the A's thereby winning a regional event -- with Mailemaker as straggler by the way). I've also placed in several 50 yd events with the thing. This is a stock '42 with no rear sight.
So anyway if you want to believe that a patched ball or a frosty ball shoots exactly the same - go for it. But if you really want to hit something -- scrape off your sprues, stipple your balls with a couple of those horse hoof rasps or course wood rasps, find a nice moderate charge around 50 grains, and maybe apply some Alox. My gun always shoots EXACTLY where I aim it (often much to my chagrin). Lani Harrison (and Jim Leinicke by proxie) is my hero!

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

I am older then some, and I do remember seeing this all the time in the old days. You would see a ping pong ball being held aloft in air. The miracle was performed during vacum cleaner demos. They hooked up the exhaust to a tube, turned it on and the ball miraculously stayed balanced in one position, balanced by the cusion of air passing equally around it. This is something you all can see and understand.

[John Holland]

Now, if this was Face Book I'd put a "Like" right here!

[Muley Gil]

Now, if this was Face Book I'd put a "Like" right here!

If this were Facebook, I probably wouldn't be reading it! :D

[Maillemaker]

Our local kid's science museum (SciQuest) has a display of this. A bunch of tubes blowing air out of them with a plastic ball floating on top of the outlet.

[Eggman]

The previous statement by Bruce describes The Bernoulli Principle in Physics.

True Blue and Diamond Hard,
Harry Gaul
3rd US

No disputations here. In my school it was called "The Fairies Dancing Among the Mushrooms."
As long as the ball is allowed to pick up rotation (sans Hoyt Wilhelm) - no problem.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

and the thread keeps going and going and going ............. oh thats the battery commercial.

[efritz]

I last posted to this thread back in July of 2012. In that post I was waiting for my Tanner mould to arrive .015 under my bore size and stated that I would post my results. Upon arrival I went about the task of experimenting with all the different powders and lubes. My gun is a H&P with a Hoyt barrel. In short, I fired over 500 rounds off the bench shooting 10 rounds on each target at 50 yds. I settled on 60 grs. 3F GOEX, wood rasped ball, one dip Alox. Since that time I have earned my DSSA in smoothbore. Won the Nat'l. SB Agg. Last year I went 3 regional skirmishes in a row without a miss in team events. Shot a 99 5x (25y) (Note: I shoot 10 shots at regional skirmishes for the practice automatically disqualifying me for awards) and a couple of 93's at 50 yd. The info gleaned from others helped me get over the top. A hearty thank you to all. Maybe some day I can put all my experiments to pen and paper and submit. It would be too lengthy for this BB. But the obvious points are, what works for me may not work for you and others are winning by doing things differently than me. You have to put your time in and try different things, have a system, and practice. Anyone wanting any help whatsoever, just drop me a line. Again, many thanks to all for all the help.

[Eggman]

Hooooahhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jonk]

Here is my point. Sighted Smoothbores should not be in the same class with non Sighted Smoothbores. The rear sight of an H and P removes a very important variable in the sight picture that allows the H and P to have an advantage over the non sighted smoothbores. Why are Potsdam smoothbores increasing in price. They should be cheap as dirt, but they are not because the Potsdam can be relined, and they come with a rear sight.

You can do this, and you can do that, and you can practice until the cows come home, but statistically over the long haul, the H and P will beat a non rear sight smoothie if all conditions and shooter skills are the same. The rear sight reduces the variable of an inconsistent sight picture, alignment, and head positioning.

I have made the decision that I will not compete in Smoothbore individuals until the rules are changed, or I can buy an H and P. Anyone have an extra $1400 they can donate to me.

True Blue and Diamond hard,
Harry
3rd US
3626v
I hesitate to respond here as I've also posted several times and made my feelings known; but to add a few points... I don't think anyone would dispute that a sighted smoothie is a tad easier to shoot than an unsighted. We however, are shooting to represent the Civil War. Some guys had flintlocks, some had sighted smoothbores, some unsighted. We get to make that choice, they didn't. But just as a soldier might find himself in a skirmish with his buddies with different guns, I'm opposed to seperating the classes. Crying "It's not fair!" may be true in principle... but then neither is it fair for guys shooting bottom of the barrel stock condition imports to shoot next to guys with custom built bedded guns. Neither is it fair to shoot a flintlock (not that many do but a few do) up against guys shooting percussion. Neither is it fair to shoot a front stuffer against guys with Smiths and Maynards and such. Bottom line, we all choose the equipment we buy, based on budget and preference, and if what you really want is an H&P, well as you put it, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Until then, I'm sorry you feel like you won't shoot smoothbore. While I have a Potsdam, H&P, and 1842, I started with the 42. When that was all I had, I shot it and felt at no disadvantage, as it was that or not shoot smoothbore- and I wanted to shoot smoothbore. When I started I had a Euroarms Enfield. I shot that. It's what I could afford. We've already fractionated enough, separating Spencer and Henry. I might support separate classes for individuals, but for team events, we need to be more, not less inclusive. Just my 2 cents.

[John Holland]

For my friend, Eric Fritz, I would like to strongly encourage you to put "pen to paper" regarding your smoothbore experiences as an article to submit to the about to be re-born Skirmish Line Magazine!

[Lou Lou Lou]

Eric
Congratulations on all your hard work paying off. Great Job.

[hp gregory]

it is hard to say what goes on inside a barrel. all you can do is guess or maybe hope you know whats happening. the roughing of the balls is mainly to make the ball a little bigger, in the old days when nothing was tossed in the trash, we used to have piston skirts knurlized to swell them back out to take away some piston slap in old chevy engines. so in smoothbores it makes an undersized ball a little over bore dia. but here is the important part. it also makes it easy to load. its a lot easier to push back the knurled fingers than a solid ball. the knurling also helps clean the bore a little. that roughness sort of scrapes a little fouling as its loaded. as far as alox goes. its only there to prevent leading.we have found the thinnest poss coat is best. I would bet you could shoot a clean ball with no lube just as well or better. what it comes down to is casting a perfect ball then remove the sprue before knurling. then its a matter of keeping the bore in as close to the same condition from shot to shot as poss. of course you then have to deal with the heat coming off a super thin barrel. you also have to deal with the barrel expanding slightly from the heat as well.good smoothy shooting is all about finding exactly what your gun wants then giving it to it over and over. 98% of the good shots come from ammo prep. more so than any other gun we shoot. when you get down to it that's all you got working for you. I guess all the witchcraft and spells are meerly legend. or so they say anyway.

hp

[Michael Bodner]

Somebody tell me why we don't just use larger balls to begin with and then make sure we have sufficient lube to kill the fouling?

[kowdok]

I recently chimed in on a thread about SBs about a month ago. Most of my info on ammo was put forth by HP. Hard lead, 45gns Swiss, and alox. I was getting good results at 25 yds, but was struggling at 50. Shooting a Potsdam some and Richmond carbine some. I started experimenting at my house with different lubes and my eyes were opened significantly by what I found. I got the very best results with no lube. I just came back from the Gator with the 1st place medal for 50yd SB with a score of 92. I bet I have never scored close to 80 before. I use a Pedersoli mold throwing a .675 ball in a .687 reline by Hoyt in the Potsdam. I rasped the balls heavily, but no lube. The safety behind me was amazed by how the balls just rolled down the barrel with just the weight of the ramrod even after 10 rounds. I have to clean between event with wet and dry patches. I am confident that the barrel does not get any more fouled by the naked balls than with the alox. I offer this for what it's worth, I'm sold and I simply put this forth as something to try. And yes Eggman, I'm shooting naked from now on!

[Eggman]

INCREDIBLE! If this catches on we may end up with the whole line shooting naked.

[Eggman]

Somebody tell me why we don't just use larger balls to begin with and then make sure we have sufficient lube to kill the fouling?
Sounds like a good test Bootsie. Please post your results here.

[Maillemaker]

I am confident that the barrel does not get any more fouled by the naked balls than with the alox. I offer this for what it's worth, I'm sold and I simply put this forth as something to try.

At the 3rd Georgia skirmish a couple of weekends ago I shot my individuals using "naked" balls. Sprue cut off with Mike Rouche sprue cutter, and then rolled between files. The thing you have to watch out for is they are so rough that they do not come out of the rubber tubes well so you should only seat them until they just plug the tube mouth or you will struggle getting them out of the tubes! That's why I only used them in individuals.

I don't remember my score, but I took 1st place 50 yard smoothbore and 1st place smoothbore aggregate shooting the naked balls. I didn't medal at all for 25 yard smoothbore but competition is stiff. But I guess my 50 yard score was good enough to still take the agg. I think I got 2 "tens" at 50 yards as I recall. I don't find the fouling to be of any particular consequence up to 10 consecutive shots. I did not try more before cleaning.

I shot the team event using un-roughed balls dipped in Alox. The problem I have with that is the Alox tends to peel off of the un-roughed balls as it goes in and comes out of the tubes. Some people protect the balls by putting them on a small square of wax paper before pushing them into the tubes. Our team took 2nd place smoothbore but my own performance was just OK. Mostly we were carried by Rod Harbin who shot 18 for 18 using roughed balls dipped in Alox.

I'm using a .678 mold (I think it is RCBS) in a stock ArmiSport 1842 with a glass bedded barrel. I am casting wheel weight lead.

Here is what I am using to rough up the balls: A fixture I made for $12 using some scrap wood and harbor freight files:

http://4thla.weebly.com/ball-rolling-fixture.html

I want to do some more bench testing with rough naked balls vs. rough alox balls. But my limited testing in one individual match was encouraging.

Steve

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

If you ever want to discuss this at length with others some evening you can use my Round table in Sutlers. Bruce

[Eggman]

I believe this has become a reference manual for the smoothbore. Five more hits to the magical 17,000.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

There was segment on the Justice Chanel at noon time today about people who got busted while naked. But nothing while shooting a musket. Could be a first and a interesting story for the Skirmish Line and maybe the History Channel.:rolleyes: Who knows might pick up some new members.

[Eggman]

At the 44th GA skirmish two weeks ago ran four for four on the 4" tiles at fifty yards during the novelty match while my carbine and rifle musket partners looked on with mouths agape. This with a rearsightless smoothie Armi Sport '42 (rasp rolled .678 balls, Alox, 55 grains fffg.). This stuff (see above) really works.

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

At the 44th GA skirmish two weeks ago ran four for four on the 4" tiles at fifty yards during the novelty match while my carbine and rifle musket partners looked on with mouths agape. This with a rearsightless smoothie Armi Sport '42 (rasp rolled .678 balls, Alox, 55 grains fffg.). This stuff (see above) really works.


Amazing! Aim, hold, squeeze. What a concept.

[Eggman]

As far as smoothbores are concerned, "Were it so simple."

[jonk]

As far as smoothbores are concerned, "Were it so simple."

Indeed. One day I'll shoot a 46 2X at 50 yards, hardly a record but a really solid score by anyone's standards, the next day with the same gun and load, I miss every tile at 50. Or I'll miss every pigeon on the board, but not have a miss after that. Scratches head. :confused:

[bobanderson]

At the 44th GA skirmish two weeks ago ran four for four on the 4" tiles at fifty yards during the novelty match while my carbine and rifle musket partners looked on with mouths agape.

Wow, Eggster. Some of the stuff you post is SOOOOOO funny!

No Georgia good old boy would just stand there and let you bang away.

[Eggman]

Well Bob you raise some interesting points here. First this (novelty) match required conglomeration teams of rifle musket, carbine, and smoothbore. We first had a couple of events at 25 yards where the smoothbore is normally quite comfortable. Our particular team was two Escort guys (Larry -carbine and me - smoothbore) and a straggler from the 4th LA - a new guy highly skilled, on paper so far. Now I acknowledge that during this smoothbore rampage these guys were busy shooting, but they couldn't help but be astounded that I was "walking the dog" from the right side of the fame to the left, destroying their 4" tiles in the process, especially since I let out a piercing yell each hit.
Only one of us, the new guy, was from GA (mind you he's on the 4th LA) - our guy other guy, Larry, is from TN. Best I could tell neither of these guys had their mouth normally agape.
It appeared all the other smoothbore shooters in this event retreated from the line in utter humiliation.

[bobanderson]

So, it's possible the "mouth agape" pose was due to your rebel yell and not necessarily due to your shooting performance.

Those kinds of days happen all too rarely, so it's OK to wag your tail a bit when they do.

[Eggman]

Yes Bob, it is my honor to lead the way as we smoothborers seek attainment of ever higher and higher pinacles of achievement, while lesser mortals can only gape in amazement.

[Eggman]

Keep your eye on this thread. Free copy of my book to #20,000.

[gmkmd]

You wrote a book?

[Eggman]

Yeah I wrote "From the Flame of Battle to the Fiery Cross" published in 2001. I still have some new copies listed under "dutchpiper18" on Amazon.

[John Holland]

Eggman - If you want to bring some to Winchester, I'll buy one!

[RaiderANV]

Yeah I wrote "From the Flame of Battle to the Fiery Cross" published in 2001. I still have some new copies listed under "dutchpiper18" on Amazon.

Anything about Maynards in it???

[Eggman]

Eggman - If you want to bring some to Winchester, I'll buy one!

Thanks John! Current price is $10 (originally $25) and includes three Civil War 3D sets. I'll pack them along.

[Eggman]

Anything about Maynards in it???

There certainly will be a Maynard section in the copy you buy if so interested PJ. The 3d Tenn. started out with the ubiquitious 42 smoothie and progressed to Enfields.

[Eggman]

Any idea who landed on 20,000????? Free book copy acomin'. Need name and address. If nonmember email southernjacks@gmail.com.

[Eggman]

Same deal for #23,000. PM me.

[Eggman]

The weekend is here Toot. Time enough to read this thread. The greatest thing since "War and Peace."

[Eggman]

I never did give away a free book with this thread. First five guys from the thread who PM me get one delivered at the natl. Pat (PJ) Kelly you get the 6th. I'm sure you can find somebody to read it to you.

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

im not a smoothbore master but i have some ideas as to what MAY be going on inside the bore. it would seem a tight fitting ball wont shoot as well as a loose fitting one. could this be because the gas flows around the ball and centers it in the bore? hard to say. but i do know every smoothbore i have had will shoot a looser ball better than a tight one. as for the dimples. i guess if they work for a golf ball they would work on a smoothy ball. the alox seems to work well because it drys hard. unlike a musket where you want the lube to keep the fouling soft the alox remains hard and the fouling is like dust instead of sludge. as for the ball upseting to bore dia. dont count on that. i dont think that happens. it takes a lot to upset a solid lead round ball. the fit that seems to work in my gun is one where the ball barely sits on the muzzle. it practicaly falls down the bore. in fact the very thin coat of alox seems to be the only thing keeping gravity from pulling the ball down the bore. one thing i consider important when working up the ball is to remove the sprue before rolling the ball. you want the ball to be as perfect as you can get it so that as it clears the crown on the muzzle there are no imperfections that will affect the balls flight. shooting a smoothbore is a game where you try to perfect a process then repeat that process over and over. all you have working for you with a smoothbore is the ammo. good ammo will hopefully give you the good shots you are looking for.

hp

I shoot a soft ball that is about .003 under bore. 78 grs (A double dip with a Lee dipper) 2F GOEX, no files, no alox, stick them in the tube sprue down and dip the bottom half in rather soft lube that I use on minnies (Thrice Dipped from the infamous Lefty on the old B/B), load them sprue up. They go where they are pointed. With the soft lube I only need to brush with the butt up between relays which lets the crud fall out all over your forearm instead of back into the barrel and it never fouls and cleans with soapy water. As for upsetting? Mine do. I find them in the local club backstop with a small band around them from upsetting in the bore. They're not bouncing as they travel down the bore they're coming out like a piston. Now the following is information about myself that I don't often mention and never brag about on this B/B and while not trying to impress anybody I offer it only as credentials as to my method of loading and shooting the smoothbore. I have had a team match or two where I missed nothing, shot a 99 at 25 yds a few years back at a Gator and followed it with a 98 at the Fall Potomac that same year, both with witnesses, won a bunch of other medals and also stood next to Jim Lineke as we received the first DSA's ever issued for smoothbore musket. If all that filing and hard lube stuff, hard lead, undersized balls etc works for you guys, great! I ain't changing a thing. I haven't shot individuals in a few years and for the last couple of years I have had to drop a few events due to some shoulder issues but if they get resolved I'll drag the smoothie back out and we'll have some fun.

[Eggman]

I think this may be the trend Jim. I still rough the balls but have dropped Alox (bore crudded up/became hard too load too fast) and gone to a soft lube like you. Great consistency and comfortable loading in this mode.