I'd like to have a Kerr rifle barrel repro made, but need info to do so properly

[Pat in Virginia]

I would like to have a reproduction of a Kerr patent rifle barrel made, but need the correct information to give to the barrel maker, who is willing and very experienced in such things, to make one. His normal charge is approximately $350 for a new barrel these days. In this case, he would have to have the tooling to cut the groove as per the original Kerr rifle. His set-up would involve 4 inches of straight rifling, a parabolic curve/twist into the 20:1 and then the standard 20:1. Then we have the special Kerr muzzle treatment which would add some additional steps/labor. Once he is good to go with the tooling he can and would make a barrel on order for anyone. So if you have a Kerr and don't want to take a chance with the barrel, or the barrel in not in good shootable shape this is your chance to make the old girl perform again as she once did. If you have a standard LACo or Enfield Lock P53, the barrel should be a drop-in just like the ones the Volunteers bought from LACo into their standard P53's. Your .577 will become a .451 target rifle. I think of the Kerr rifle barrel as being good for mid-range target, out to 600 yards.

What I know:
1) There is four inches of straight rifling at the breech;
2) there is gain twist from there to approximately half the length of the barrel;
3) the form of the rifling profile is "ratchet with no angles" (I assume this means the straight side of the ratchet is on a diagonal of the bore);
4) the ratchet has some form of parabolic verge into the bore on the non-straight side (but I don't know exact profile);
5) there are six grooves, of progressive depth varying from .0015 deep at the bore to .0005 at the muzzle or almost the end of the muzzle depending on the champher;
6) the second half of the barrel is 20:1 standard twist; 7) the bore is .451 and maybe a tad less.

What I think I know (maybe):
1) The muzzle is of unusual configuration:
a) It may be a recessed muzzle per some pictures I have seen,
b) the rifling is chamfered at the muzzle (there is a tapered cone at the muzzle to aide loading):
- the rifle appears to be a smoothbore at the muzzle?
- the rifle appears to be a Whitworth at the muzzle?
2) I believe a parabolic curve is used to define the gain twist (but, I don't know its parameters).

What I don't know and need help with:
1) Exact profile of full groove cut at breech showing ratchet side and curve from low point hereof to where it verges into initial .451 bore;
2) exact configuration of rifling at muzzle end (a casting of the muzzle rifling would be a great help),
3) what the full depth .0015 rifling cut looks like (again, a casting would be of immense help).

So if you can help me get the info I need, I will push forward to get the Kerr barrels back into limited production.

Many thanks for any info you have and share,


Pat in Virginia

[ironjohnlogan]

I am in the process of reproducing a Kerr rifle from scratch. I would be very interested in having a barrel made (I am unable to do my own rifling).

please let me know
John

[Pat in Virginia]

John,

Thanks for the feed back. I'm still working on trying to make it happen. If I'm successful, I will post something on this site to let you know.


Pat

[ironjohnlogan]

Do we know anyone that owns a Kerr or a museum that would be able to take a bore casting? I just sent an email to the Royal Armory in Leeds to inquire if they have one their collection... I will share any response here

If you dont mined Pat, I'd love to talk more on other aspects of the Kerr rifle (at least until we get more barrel information). there is a lot of differing information out there, as to what a Kerr looks like. I am talking details, and you seem to be the only one asking all the questions on the interweb lol.

[ironjohnlogan]

here is the response I got this morning from the Royal Armory in Leeds England

"Hi John,

We have a military breechloading .451 calibre trials rifle from 1868 (XII.2107), and a couple of commercial Snider type .577 rifles by LAC/Kerr (XII.9011 here at Leeds, another stored at our Fort Nelson site). We also have a Kerr percussion muzzleloading target rifle rather confusingly described as having a Snider barrel (XII.3020 – this may simply be miscatalogued as I haven’t yet inspected it).


If you can confirm which you’re interested in, I can investigate sensitive bore casting/slugging.

Regards,

Jonathan"

It sounds to me the last one (XII.3020) may be what we are looking for. I will communicate the first part of this thread with him to try to verify

[ironjohnlogan]

Jonathan Ferguson head of the firearms department at Royal Armours, emailed me this morning after inspecting XII.3020 - here is what he said.

"
I’m told we don’t have the drawings, sadly. I’ve asked Conservation to see what approved casting methods there might be for the muzzle.

I’ve found and inspected the rifle and what you say appears to be the case – recessed/bevelled inner crown leading to an apparently smooth first few mm, then the rifling emerges after that. There is a certain Whitworth look to the muzzle, as the muzzle itself appears to have the grooves, (which then vanish and reappear as described) giving the appearance of almost polygonal rifling. Very strange.

I will send you the snaps I took from home, and if I can get a cast done of the first inch or so of rifling and the crown, I will gladly send it to you."

[Pat in Virginia]

John,

That sounds just great!!! I've put together a spec for a Kerr barrel as a line in the sand that can be updated whenever any better information becomes available. It's for purposes of talking to barrel makers to help them understand what it is we are after.

If you will send me your email address by personal message, I will copy you on the latest version of the spec. I am also in the process of doing likewise for the Kerr front sight.


Pat

[Pat in Virginia]

John, be sure to check your personal messages (see "notifications" near top of web page and click on drop-down).


Pat

[Pat in Virginia]

I expect to be talking with a barrel maker fairly soon. If you have any interest in such a barrel in .451 approx. as a drop in for a P53 Enfield RSAF, LACo, or Parker Hale stock let me know. When it comes to Italiamn made rifles other than perhaps the new Pedersoli's I don't think they probably observed the original barrel contour in the P53 pattern rifle. They may have, I just would not assume they did.

I'm sure any barrel maker is going to be interested in how many such barrels he might expect to turn out in short order.


Pat

[hwaugh]

Pat, I would have an interest in a barrel.

Harry Waugh - 3731 - Terry's Texas Rangers

[medic302]

who's the barrel maker if you don't mind shareing?

[Pat in Virginia]

Medic,

Fair question, but it is too soon to say until we have had a hand shake. He has the barrel spec and will study it in detail. I expect to know more within a month.

I did talk to the barrel maker today and guess what? He asked me how many barrels I might be talking about. Doing one or two might not be worth his time as he could use it more productively on other projects. That's a very sensible attitude. He wants to have some idea of the market potential. One or two rifles is not all that attractive given the set-up time.

Nevertheless, I need some notion of the number of barrels that might be needed. Hence this post. So, if you are seriously interested, let me know. A PM with your email address would be most helpful as I can keep you informed about what's happening.

I'll continue to post info here, but sometimes private emails are the way to go.


Pat