A question about range etiquette.

[newtekpa]

A question about range etiquette.

I've seen previous conversations regarding range etiquette while shooting individual matches, and recently encountered a situation I have not heard previously mentioned. At a recent skirmish, I had shot a 100 yard carbine target. Was switching guns, so was a little slow getting out to my backer. Another shooter was waiting at my backer, planning on posting a target. I informed him I was planning on shooting another target. He seemed ticked off, I pointed out to him there were available backers a few positions down the line.


What is appropriate?


What would be appropriate at Nationals?

[Michael Bodner]

Well, this could turn out to be a fun post...

Personally, I think it generally boils down to a swinging d... contest: I want this and you can't have it. Especially if you're the guy saying "This is mine, you have to shoot somewhere else".

In general, I go with first-come, first served. Even though you may put your scope on the line near a target, you may not be the first to that frame. Is it worth the aggrevation to start an arguement? On the other hand, shouldn't a gentleman competitor yield? Not much different dirving down the road and refusing to let someone merge.

In the big picture, if someone wants 'my' frame, I just move. My mind is on the event, not on some Poopie-head acting tough. Then I outshoot the SOB and smile to myself.

Play nice and ignore the jerks: You'll live longer then them.

-Mike

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

Good subject. This is something that's not written anywhere so there can be different understandings by different people. I had a similar experience at the Potomac. I was about to hang a target on a bare backer at the 50 yard line when another skirmisher came from behind and said that he had been firing on that position earlier and was already set up at the line. I graciously moved to another available backer.

Based on nearly 40 years of skirmishing, my interpretation of proper ettiquette for the rifle range is that shooters claim a position by first posting a target and then setting up scope at the corresponding firing position. An exception should be made for shooters firing multiple guns at the same position over two or more consecutive relays, consecutive being the operative word. If a shooter fails to occupy that position for one relay, the backer should be open to anyone.

It's just the opposite on the pistol range. Shooters usually claim a spot on the firing line first and then post targets on the appropriate frame.

Others may disagree with my thinking but it would be good to see if there is consensus among the membership for any particular method.

Jim Burgess, 15th Conn.Vol. Inf.

[efritz]

This is good timing for this subject with the Nat's coming up in one month.

There are no rules for range etiquette. It is simply that, etiquette. I've been shooting since 1969 (yikes !!!) and can honestly say I have only run into the problem once. Arrived at the frame later than the fellow who ran. Had one of my targets that I had just shot hanging and was about to hang another. The gentleman (?) was emphatic that he was going to shoot there because he was there first. After trying to explain the etiquette to no avail, I decided to shoot on another frame, which I had to wait for. Yep, I was ticked, went back stood by the fence thought about how much I really liked that guy and maybe I should get his address so I can send him a Xmas card, waited for the next relay. Mr. Bodner is right. I shot one of my best targets which contibuted greatly to me winning the Grand Agg. for my very first time. I look back and think of it as probably the worst and best time of my shooting experience. (Well the floods weren't alot fun either) but in any regard, ya know sometimes it just ain't worth it. Yield to the guy doing 80 mph while your on the ramp. You'll probably pass him on the side of the road.

As for what has worked for me -- Hang my target first then set up on the line, including the pistol range. If the line is crowded just ask who's shooting where and can I squeeze in or move up or down a little. Generally on the pistol range if you put your belongings behind the position that you want to shoot on and sit there with your target in hand, I believe 99.9% will get the idea. But be ready with that stare that this is my claim for that .1%.

[Lou Lou Lou]

It has been my limited experience that at Nationals, once you post on a frame it is a gentelmen's agreemement that you continue to post on continuous relays until you have exhausted that distance.:p

[gmkmd]

I think that if you have set up your scope on a position, you have claimed it, and that should be the way to do so. You shouldn't have to yield to some S.O.B. who runs out ahead of you from somewhere else down the line.

Last year I set up my scope on an empty position, and patiently waited for the relay to end. As soon as it did, I made a beeline right out to hang my target. Some jerk came jogging diagonally from ten positions over and started hanging his target on my spot. I pointed out to him that I'd been set up there for the past 15 minutes and had came directly out to hang my target, and he tried to pull that "Well I got here first" bull**** on me. I did not let it slide.

I personally don't think this should be a damned free-for-all, with guys running around to grab a target spot. It is obviously much more organized if you plant your scope or bayonet or whatever on an available spot and then hang your target on that position. None of this cutting across to screw over a guy who isn't as fast as you are.

[YOU DON'T KNOW ?]

Glenn. Next time I think you should tell them how you really feel:D You're right. One of the things I dislike most about Nationals is the amount of numb-nuts shooting individuals. Talking outloud, being disruptive, being just plan rude, and last but not least, shooting targets that do not belong to them. I think you should be required to take a class before you are allowed to shoot Ind. at National. Somewhat on the lines of the class one must take to receive a concealed handgun permit. Someone responsible should organize and teach it. YOU would have to be certified and carry a card to prove it before you could shoot. Period. My 2cents/.

[ms3635v]

I've been shooting since 1979 and can honestly say that I have not encountered a problem like this. I try to keep everything in perspective...I am there first to have fun and second to shoot the best I possibly can. So, the bottom line for me is, it's not worth getting worked up about.

[hp gregory]

this can sure be a sore spot at times. in recent years individuals at the nationals dont seem to be as crowded so it may not come up as much. i like to start at 50 yards and i shoot all my 50 yd targets back to back to back before moving to 100. once there i shoot on that spot until finished. if i skip a relay i figure i have lost that spot and will have to find another one. however if im not going to sit one out i would like to keep that spot until im done. one way to keep the problem from coming up is to get to your backer first. then if someone comes up you can say you are already using the spot and you would prefer not to move. i also mention how many targets i have left. MOST people understand the unwritten rule and find another spot. if im slow geting to the backer and someone insists that they were there first then i just move. no point in geting in a whizin match. another sore spot was the people who didnt like to get lined up on their target. thanks to a rule that has taught us to line up on the proper spot we dont have to worry about that much anymore. i think it all comes down to good range manors.

hp

[gmkmd]

I agree with HP regarding that aspect; that once you are shooting on a spot, it is yours for as many subsequent relays as you hang targets for.

But regarding the aspect of claiming a spot initially; if you set up your scope on an unoccupied spot before the next relay starts, then that spot is yours, period. And that is where you should be looking for an available spot, on the firing line. After all, that is where we are all waiting for the next relay and seeing what spots are available or who is finishing up to surrender their spot on the line.

This "I got here first" attitude is the epitome of a total lack of etiquette. What is the strategy, then, to look for shooters who are elderly or otherwise disabled so you have a better chance of outrunning them to the frames?

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Proverbs 14:7
Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.

Modern day English translation;
Don't waste your time arguing with an idiot.

[Mike McDaniel]

This is why I shoot musket and carbine individuals Wednesday - because I have experienced this more than once on the rifle range.

I've only seen it happen once on the pistol range, but we're gentlemen. :)

[John Holland]

There's no end to what can be said about ignorant and inconsiderate people who think the Universe revolves around them and their desires.

Here's a different aspect of range courtesy. Some years back at the Nationals I was set up on a position firing my course of 50 yard targets. One of our older competitors set up on the next position to shoot 100 yards. The tower announced we could go hang for the next relay, so off I went and hung my next 50 yard target. I was half way back to the firing line when I noticed the older gentleman was walking with a limp, and wasn't even to the 50 yard line yet. I turned around, went back to him, and asked him which 100 yard frame he intended to hang on. I told him to give me his target and I would hang it for him. He reluctantly handed it over to me, turned around and limped back to his position. When I came back to the line he thanked me profusely explaining that it was getting harder and harder for him to shoot individuals because he was getting so slow. I found out he was a WW2 Marine Corps veteran, wounded on Iwo Jima, hence the limp, and was in his early 80's at that time. After that, whenever he saw me he would always break out in a grin and have some kind words for me. I haven't seen him for a long time now.

It never hurts to be nice to people.

John

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

At National skirmishes, I believe that this will become a non issue, with the decline in individual registrations and the amount of time available to shoot your individual targets.

That said, weather can always be a factor in crowding the range on certain days.

I have only been skirmishing since 1978, but to be honest I have never had an issue. I am usually just happy not to be working and out shooting with my friends. If anyone feels a particular need to have my "spot" and it enhances their skirmish experience then so be it ! ;)

[Maillemaker]

In my opinion, what counts is a target on the board, not your scope on the ground.

When I walk downrange with a target and my staple gun, I'm going to go to an empty sheet (or empty spot on the) of cardboard. Then I will walk back uprange and set up my position to shoot. I'm not going to walk downrange to an empty board and then turn around to see if someone has "claimed" a spot by parking their scope in front of it, and trying to eyeball to figure out which half of the board they have "claimed".

And, once I have posted a target, that spot is mine until I have taken down my last target. In other words, I can re-post as many targets as I like to that spot, taking down the shot target and posting a fresh one until I am finished.

Now this doesn't mean that I can put up a target and then go have lunch or something and thus occupy the station all day long. What I'm saying is if I bought myself a sighting target and an entry and two re-entries, then I can shoot all 4 of those consecutively.


Lou Lou Lou It has been my limited experience that at Nationals, once you post on a frame it is a gentelmen's agreemement that you continue to post on continuous relays until you have exhausted that distance.

This is exactly how I think it should be.



I think that if you have set up your scope on a position, you have claimed it, and that should be the way to do so.

I disagree with this. I think you should hang your target on an available frame first, then move your scope to where you were able to hang your target.

Now to be fair, I've only shot at skirmishes in the Deep South Region, and never at the nationals, so I've never had to deal with a crowded range for individuals. In fact most of the time hardly anyone even shows up on Friday afternoon for individuals. I've never had to deal with people hustling to secure a shooting space.

Steve

[gmkmd]

"I think you should hang your target on an available frame first, then move your scope to where you were able to hang your target."

That is about as efficient as sticking your finger up your nose to scratch your ear. When you get to the firing line, you can immediately see which positions are occupied or available. You have time to set up your scope during the current relay. Once you hang your target and get back to the line, you have much less time to start setting up your scope, because you are getting your musket and ammo ready before the "One minute to the line" command.

The firing line should without question be the point of recognition for claiming a firing spot. It is clear and present. There is no ambiguity about who is there or not. There is no concern that some jerk is going to make the 100-yard trek faster than you could and steal your spot from you. It eliminates the potential for these conflicts and disappointments that contributors to this thread have experienced and expressed.

When we go to shoot our individuals we should be able to concentrate on the shooting, not playing a game of Musical Chairs.

[Fearless Frank]

Bootsie got it right! Just out shoot the SOB & laugh about it.

[Lou Lou Lou]

It is the stress of frame claiming that causes me to shoot poorly at Nationals.

[Maillemaker]

The firing line should without question be the point of recognition for claiming a firing spot. It is clear and present. There is no ambiguity about who is there or not.

Lots of people can mill about behind a shooter on the firing line. To me, a piece of paper on the backstop is far less ambiguous. There can only be one piece of paper on the backstop per station.


Once you hang your target and get back to the line, you have much less time to start setting up your scope, because you are getting your musket and ammo ready before the "One minute to the line" command.

My musket and ammo are ready before I ever head out to hang my target. I don't head out to hang up my target until I'm ready to shoot at it. I get my musket ready and my ammo in my pouch, grab my target, and go staple it on a frame. Then I come back, grab my musket, and head to the firing line with my bayonet stuck in my belt. If I had a spotting scope, I'd grab it up in one hand and my musket in the other and move to the station where I had stapled up my target.

Again, I've never been to the Nationals, so maybe it is more hectic there. In the Deep South, it's pretty laid back. There are often as many empty stations as there are shooters during individual matches.

Steve

[hp gregory]

i think the idea of staking out a spot on the line with your scope is the best way to let folks know your intentions. if i see a row of scopes on a position then i know there are folks intending to use those backers. so i look for another spot. i feel there is less confusion when folks can get an idea of how many intend to use a position. good communication and range manors will make things fun for everyone.

hp

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

There is never a problem on the pistol range during the Nationals since competitors only occupy a shooting position for one relay only. It is different on the rifle range where many competitors bring several long guns to the ready area and try to shoot them all over the course of several relays without changing positions. There is nothing wrong with that but the heart of this issue is how one initially stakes a claim to the position.

From the posts so far on this thread it appears those in favor of setting up on the line first to claim a spot before posting their targets want to participate in the shooting competition only without also competing in the unofficial foot race to the target backers. That is understandable. Many of us are slowing down and can’t be competitive in foot races. However, when things get crowded there is just as much potential for disputes at the firing line as there might be at the target backers.

Complicating the issue are the shooters who leave their equipment on the line but decide to sit out a relay. I have no problem with shooters who wish to fire from the same position over consecutive relays but those that hog space on the line and not use it are being very inconsiderate of other shooters. Since shooters do not always remove their gear from the firing line in a timely manner it is not always easy to determine what positions are open when all the backers are full and the tower opens the range to post new targets. The only definitive way to identify an open position is a bare backer.

In the interest of full disclosure, I do not own a wheeled vehicle to transport my collective arsenal down to the range all at one time. Being somewhat anal about cleaning guns afterward and there being only so many guns I can clean before it gets dark each day, I dirty only one gun at a time and change positions each relay. I have never gotten into the habit of staking out a position for multiple relays and thus fall into the camp of claiming a position with a target as opposed to a scope.

It appears there is little consensus among the shooters as to the proper etiquette. We may never be all on the same page. Knowing and understanding that there are opposing views, neither camp being right or wrong, may help ease friction. As others have said, range courtesy is paramount.

Jim Burgess, 15th Conn. Vol. Inf.

[Fearless Frank]

I hope we are all still here for a good time. Act like a gentleman & you will treated as such. Some people take staples out of other peoples targets. If no one is held accountable then the behavior continues. And we get more rules that are not enforced. I come for a vacation & a goodtime of shooting. I wish everyone has as good an experience as I have had.

[RaiderANV]

Glenn,

In a perfect world your way "might" work but on the firing line it doesn't have a chance.

READ Jim Burgess's first post:
"Based on nearly 40 years of skirmishing, my interpretation of proper ettiquette for the rifle range is that shooters claim a position by first posting a target and then setting up scope at the corresponding firing position. An exception should be made for shooters firing multiple guns at the same position over two or more consecutive relays, consecutive being the operative word. If a shooter fails to occupy that position for one relay, the backer should be open to anyone."

There is no need for a foot race although I've seen them. ONCE you've posted a target it's YOUR frame until you've finished shooting all your targets at that distance PROVIDING you don't skip a relay here and there. Those folk who do are the inconsiderate ones. People waiting for a frame and they want to sit out a relay to BS.

The scope deal doesn't work for the fact folks will leave their scopes on the line while they BS several relays. If a target is posted I've always waited to see if they are posting another and if not I post. You'll have plenty of time to position your scope after you've posted. There is only so much time allowed to post targets and we can't be waiting to see who's got their scopes where they want them then stroll on out to the frames.

[gmkmd]

My point wasn't about maintaining a spot once you've already started shooting there, it was about getting a spot to begin with. Obviously, once you've already been shooting on a spot it's yours until you relinquish it, BUT you have to shoot consecutive relays (you can't save a spot while you skip a relay).

[Ron/The Old Reb]

How about a little courtesy and respect for the older shooters who can't do the 100 yard dash in 10.5 seconds anymore. Just remember everyone is going to get there some day.

[gmkmd]

Amen to that.

That is one of the reasons that I think this "whoever gets out there first" attitude is flawed.

[John Holland]

In reading this thread I get the understanding that many of our competitors feel that "Common Courtesy" has pretty much gone by the wayside. Here is a simple solution that could be mandated for the future. Since we all know this is a National Match, and not a simple regional, we also know that the Individual Matches are held on Wednesday through Friday every National, so we can plan accordingly. All Individual Match competitors would get an assigned position and time for each match they have entered, not unlike some hi-power matches I've been to. These times and positions will be selected by a computer using a random number and time generator program. This information will be added to your target label. There will be a different color label for each of the three days of individual competition. This will assist the Line Judges in initially determining if you are there on the correct day. You will now know what relay you will be on, and where your position will be. If you're not on your assigned position at your assigned time, then you're out of there. No excuses accepted. No more "Sand-lot Bullies" either! The only complaints left to be heard will be your poor luck of the draw and how fickle Mother Nature can be!

The above stated imaginary scenario is fully arbitrary, unforgiving, and can be unpleasant for the individual who has one match on Position 6 and the consecutive match on Position 53. So, before the National Matches actually turn into something like that everyone should step back, take a deep breath, and relax a bit. Remember, not everyone in the world is as nice and courteous as you are. There will be jerks in every hobby you will ever participate in, with many of them being far worse than someone who just wants to bully you out of your shooting position.

JDH

[Yancey von Yeast, 8073]

This is just one of the many things that makes John Holland a true gentleman!


There's no end to what can be said about ignorant and inconsiderate people who think the Universe revolves around them and their desires.

Here's a different aspect of range courtesy. Some years back at the Nationals I was set up on a position firing my course of 50 yard targets. One of our older competitors set up on the next position to shoot 100 yards. The tower announced we could go hang for the next relay, so off I went and hung my next 50 yard target. I was half way back to the firing line when I noticed the older gentleman was walking with a limp, and wasn't even to the 50 yard line yet. I turned around, went back to him, and asked him which 100 yard frame he intended to hang on. I told him to give me his target and I would hang it for him. He reluctantly handed it over to me, turned around and limped back to his position. When I came back to the line he thanked me profusely explaining that it was getting harder and harder for him to shoot individuals because he was getting so slow. I found out he was a WW2 Marine Corps veteran, wounded on Iwo Jima, hence the limp, and was in his early 80's at that time. After that, whenever he saw me he would always break out in a grin and have some kind words for me. I haven't seen him for a long time now.

It never hurts to be nice to people.

John

[Larry Funk, 3148V]

Many thanks to John Holland for his fine assessment and solution to this problem. Being "hustled" off a backer more times than I care to remember is the reason I don't shoot individuals at Nationals any longer. Again, kudos to John.

[hp gregory]

i guess all this comes down to this. the sport is supposed to be fun. if you are shooting at the nationals you are not at work. this is normaly a good thing. i would suggest that when picking an open spot on the line you use your scope or bayonet to mark the spot. that should let folks know that you plan to shoot on that position. thats the fastest way to let folks know your intentions for the next relay. if you still have someone beat you to the backer then all you can hope for is that he or she will understand and work with you. if they still wana be a butthole then walk away since you have just learned all you need to know about that person. dont let one bad apple ruin the nationals for you. sooner or later the same thing will happen to them.

hp

[Dheisey#7003]

I have only been shooting since 1985, but I was told way back then, to stake my spot out with my scope and then post my target. Normally, I stand just behind the gravel road with my stapler and target until the range is clear.. Of course, I shoot Wednesday or Thursday as soon as the range opens. I normally shoot all my 50 yd targets first then my 100 yd targets. I have never had a problem on the main range.

I only ever had someone post on my "claimed" backer once, and that was a mix up in there location, we just switched bench areas and all was cool. I also try to get there for the first or second relay in the morning.

[Lou Lou Lou]

You went and told them the "secret"

[Maillemaker]

Two weekends ago as I went to post targets at the skirmish I kept looking around behind me trying to see if someone had "staked out" a station by putting up a scope, or bayonets, or whatever. It was kind of hard to tell whose stuff was what and where. In the end I just found an empty frame and stapled up my target. I didn't have any problems.

I still hold that the best, most unambiguous way to claim a station is to staple up a target on it. It is then yours until you are done with the station.

Again, at our local skirmishes there are many more open stations than there are competitors so it's not a problem.

Steve

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

Perhaps the best way to resolve the differences between those who wish to claim a position with a scope on the line or a target on a backer is to alternate the method by position. On odd numbered positions (1, 3, 15, etc.) shooters must claim a spot with a scope on the line (and be good about removing the scopes when done shooting). On even numbered positions or frames (2, 4, 16, etc.) possession of the target backer claims the spot. In either case shooters may continue to post targets on the same position for consecutive relays until finished shooting at that yardage. Is this plan too complicated? Would it be too difficult for the host teams to police? If agreement could be reached to adopt this system the biggest problem would be making all competitors aware of it. I certainly don't care much for John's proposed solution.

Jim Burgess, 15th Conn. Vol. Inf.

[MR. GADGET]

Range Etiquette .......

I thought that was when those of us that can not see good make sure we carry enough ammo to cover all the targets on the range..... Just start at one end and work your way to the right.... At some point you will hit your target.... No need to worry about the race to the backer, no need to worry about who set up a scope on what spot.......

See you on the line..... :lol: