1854 Lorenz stock question

[Steve Weems]

I've owned three (two currently) 1854 Lorenz muskets. Two had the long range rear sights with no cheek piece and one*
block sight *with cheek piece. As a shooter I would have expected the Long Range sights to come with the cheek piece.
So my question is are my two Lorenz's with LR sights and no cheek piece aberration from the norm?

Hopefully the depth of experience in the NSSA world will be able to provide some insight

[GPM]

I also have two Lorenz's with long range sight and neither have the cheek rest. Had another with the block sight and it had the rest. I can't answer your question but hope info on three more Lorenz's help.

[John Holland]

Perhaps Mr. Don Dixon will see this thread, for he is the man who can provide "Chapter and Verse" on all things Lorenz!

JDH

[M. Latham]

Your Lorenz muskets are correct, they are number II configuration rifles with long range sights calibrated from 300 to 1000 "schritt" and no cheekpiece. The Number I rifles have a block sight calibrated out to 300 "schritt" (paces), and a cheek piece.

Hope this helps.

Mark Latham

[John Holland]

Mark -

After shooting my Lorenz....I think the sights are graduated in Shritts & Giggles!

JDH

[M. Latham]

Another stock joke from Holland.... HA ha.

[Don Dixon]

Mr. Weems and GPM:

The lack of a cheek piece on your Muster 1854 System Lorenz rifles is not an aberration. Instead, it indicates that the arms were built for export by Austrian arms contractors during the American Civil War.

ALL M/1854 rifles built for the Austro-Hungarian Army (k.k. Army) by the state arsenals and government contractors were manufactured with cheek pieces. Arms purpose built for export were manufactured both with and without the cheek piece. Leaving off the cheek piece made them a little cheaper to manufacture and one could use stock blanks which were not useable for k.k. Army weapons. The U.S. Army had never used arms with cheek pieces, so it apparently didn’t matter to the Federal ordnance inspectors. But, a lot of things didn’t matter to the Federal ordnance inspectors.

The presence or lack of cheek pieces on stocks were not related to the type of sights on the arms. The first two ranks in k.k. Army line infantry units were equipped with M/1854, Type I, rifles with short range block rear sights. The NCOs and long service professional soldiers of the third rank were equipped with M/1854, Type II, rifles with long range rear sights. Both rifle types had cheek pieces in k.k. Army service. For export arms, the Federals paid a $.50 premium for long range sights on M/1854 rifles. That was a lot of money in the early 1860s. So, I suspect that a Federal soldier was somewhat more likely to be equipped with a Type II rifle and a Confederate soldier with a Type I rifle.

Other Indications That You Have an Export Rifle:

Locks: All locks for k.k. Army M/1854 rifles – both government arsenal and contractor made - were manufactured at the state arsenal in Vienna. When they were accepted for service, they were stamped with the Kaiser’s double headed eagle and the date of manufacture (i.e., 860 for 1860). Some M/1854 caplocks are not so marked. It has been asserted that this is because they were made of soft iron and the soldiers polished the markings off. This is bulls**t. The locks of prototype arms manufactured at the Vienna arsenal for testing and arms manufactured for export by the contractors were not marked with the Kaiser’s doubled headed eagle and the date because they were never accepted into his service.

M/1854 export rifles are also frequently outfitted with caplocks which were reworked from locks from System Augustin tubelock weapons. The external lock parts were removed, the lock was re-profiled somewhat, and the screw holes remaining from the System Augustin external parts were filled with pins. If you have three round spots visible on the forward part of the lock you have one of these. It has been asserted that these were trash locks which were foisted off on the Americans. This also is incorrect. As an economy measure, the k.k. Army also used reworked System Augustin locks on their M/1854 arms. The question regarding contractor built export guns might be the quality of the re-work of the lock and the fitting of the lock to the stock.

Bore Diameter: The k.k. Army standard for bore diameter was .547 inches/13.9 mm. I have an M/1854, Type II, rifle manufactured by Ferdinand Früwirth - the dean of the Vienna arms contractors – with an American standard .540 inch bore. It also has no cheek piece and no markings on the lock. This was clearly a rifle manufactured to fill an American contract.

Barrel Markings: The rear third of the barrels on k.k. Army M/1854 rifles are normally liberally marked with assembly, proof, and unit markings. The barrels of rifles intended for export have significantly fewer marking of this type.

I would be curious to know how your M/1854 rifles fit these parameters.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[GPM]

Don, one of mine has an unmarked lockplate ,is 54 cal and marked on the barrel Mathias Sederl (excuse the spelling). The other has a visibly smaller lockplate, is dated 854, and no visible filled holes that I can detect. This one is 58 cal and marked Anna Esterlien? Again please excuse any mis-spelling. The block sight rifle I no longer have was dated 861, was roughly 56 cal. Sorry but I don't remember the maker name on the barrel.

[Steve Weems]

Don-- Lorenz (1)= Almost no marking anywhere--no sign of filled holes on lockplate. Originally looks like 58 cal.
** * * * * * * * * * * * * no cheekpiece --longrange sight-
*

** * * * *Lorenz (2) *Eagle behind lockplate--date too lightly stamped to be readable--barrel marked on rear top flat*
** * * * * * * * * * * * *Anna Esterlein (e is hard to read)--has the three holes filled in the front of the lockplate--all bands have*
** * * * * * * * * * * * *the numeral "2". *No cheekpiece *--longrange sight--all metal armoury bright.

hope this helps---Steve Weems