Stake Event

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

Does anyone have an old copy of the rules that can tell me how big the original stake was for a stake event. I have been told that it was originally a 2x6 they would shoot at.
If that was the case it was either 5 5/8 inches or 5 1/2 inches wide but I am looking to see if the rule had a dimension.

Thanks!

[snapcap14]

Joe
According to the chart on the wall in front of me, a nominal 2 x 6 would be actually 1 1/2 x 51/2

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

Well SnapCap I hope you were right because my father and I just got done cutting up close to 200 of them at 5 1/2 by 24inches wide, if you are wrong it is all your fault! I hope you can live with yourself Best part it was all free lumber and there are at least 4 more skids of free material on the way!

Expect to see a lot of stake events at MA-Region shoots that are run by the Region, especially the Regional Picnics and Commander Shoots!

[snapcap14]

MORE WOOD FOR sATURDAY NIGHTS FIRE. i DID NOT SAY IT WAS LEGAL TO SHOT!
BURN BABBY BURN! OOPS SORRY ABOUT THE CAP LOCK BEING ON!

[Lou Lou Lou]

The reason they went from shooting 2 X 6's to particle board was uniformity. Some of the stakes had Knots and one, well placed shot would breark the stake. Lots of excitement when it breaks during the first volley. My 2 cents.

[John Holland]

Lou is right, and that's not all. I've seen stakes that were so resin filled a Beaver couldn't have chewed them off!

All a wooden stake does is PO the team that is winning by accurate shooting and then loses the skirmish by bad luck. Luck should NEVER play a part in a shooting match.

And that's my 2 cents....been there, done that, and still remember why we got rid of the wooden stake event.

JDH

[Eggman]

With that attitude Sir Holland I would have to turn in ALL my medals. I was in a 4x4 muzzleloading match one time - I was using an 1803 Navy Arms Harpers Ferry flinter. My first shot was a misfire, as were the second, third, and fourth, so I retreated from the line to work on it (no N-SSA rules here) and after some hard maintenace, frustration, cuss words, new flint, new priming powder, and a pint of Gatoraide, I finally managed to get it to fire. This was after the match was over, however, and my four teammates had won it. That purple ribbon is one of my proudest posessions.
Only in the N-SSA would somebody complain because somebody else's board had too many knotts in it. This is the same guy that complained because his coal had too many prehistoric toads in it.

[Blair]

I remember 'Stakes' that were made up from old telephone poles.
I don't remember them being larger than 6" in dia., but they could have been.
I also remember most 'Stake shooting Teams' wanting at least one .69 cal. shooter on their team. Some one as I remember called his .69 cal "old termite" (???) because of the stake shoots.

Had a shoot in Glorieta, N.M. that used the fiber board for the team 'Stake' event. That was fun enough, but, what was amazing was the 12 lbs Howitzer shooting about 3 lbs. of broken bits of Hardtack like it was Canister.
At 50 yards, the fiber board had no chance with a single shot! Some of the larger pieces of hardtack would take to the air like a Frisbee/Boomerang. (That would make your "pucker factor" go up to just about 10 as you watched them fly out and start circling back.)

[John Holland]

Eggman -

Spoken like someone who never saw the "The Wooden Elephant".

Sir Holland

[Eggman]

Well I saw it --- I just couldn't get a shot off at it.

[gmkmd]

OK, two questions from a puzzled youngster here:

1) What is the "Wooden Elephant"?

2) Do more or less prehistoric toads make your coal burn better or worse?

[Lou Lou Lou]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[John Holland]

Glenn -

The reference is an American term the soldiers used during the Civil War to having been in battle, or having "Seen the Elephant". It is my memories about doing battle with the old wooden stakes. Since Eggman said he's only been around since 1990, he never "Saw the Elephant" when it comes to shooting the old wooden stakes as an official event. His lack of appreciation for losing a skirmish by luck of the draw, regardless of a teams shooting abilities, speaks volumes. If the N-SSA wants the membership to support their sanctioned matches by driving thousands of miles, expending thousands of dollars on the costs involved to skirmish, then luck should never play a part in the end results of a competitive shooting match. If a host team wants to have a stake event as a novelty match that doesn't figure into the total times, then that's fine with me.

JDH

[Blair]

Glenn,

I guess it depends on you being down wind of whatever it is your burning.
Prehistoric toads maybe a better alternative to modern pressure treated lumber or epoxy glued fiber board.;)

[Lou Lou Lou]

Youth is wasted on the young.;)

[Southron Sr.]

I am under the impression that modern made press board is different from the type of press board we used back in the late 60's and 70's to make Stakes. Modern press board seems to be much "tougher" and harder to break.

Can anyone in the building supply industry comment on this.

The "Big Brother" of the Stake Event was the "Brigade Shoot" where two sawed off telephone poles or rail road ties would be planted upright in the ground and shot in half by "Brigades" which usually consisted of 40 or 50 Skirmishers in each "Brigade." These were generally done AFTER the Musket Team Matches were over to give the host time to tabulate all the scores.

OGLETHORPE LIGHT INFANTRY PRACTICE SHOOT STAKE - CIRCA 1968

I recall going to an OLI "Team Practice" on Wilmington Island, Georgia back in 1968. The range was just a narrow cut in the woods. We only had one target frame, so the OLI "A" team would shoot and then the OLI "B" team would shoot.

On that particular day, the "A" Team graciously volunteered to hang the stake for the "B" team. I think that they were mad at us [the "B" Team] because we had out shot them in EVERY practice event. [The OLI A Team was made up of Charter Members, per the OLI rules.]

So, they graciously volunteered to hang our stake for us, and we start blazing away. Finally, finally, after many rounds had gone down range only the tiniest splinter is holding our stake together. I take careful aim and shoot!

The splinter disappears and WE ARE STUNNED TO SEE THE TWO SEPARATE HALVES OF THE STAKE REMAIN HORIZONAL!!!

In the meantime, the "A"Team was almost rolling on the grass behind us laughing.

When they had hung our stake, they had also re-enforced it by tying clear fishing line about 6 inches on either side of the vertical black line. Of course, from the firing line, we could not see the fishing line and couldn't understand WHY our stake never fell apart when it was seemingly being held together by a minuscule splinter!!!

SKIRMISH HOST TEAMS: Want to really have some fun?

Paint the black lines on your stakes Horizonal rather than Vertical. Put those stakes in the target boxes and watch the Team Commanders go wild when they spot those "stakes!!!!"

Later on, you can pass out the stakes with the Vertical Black Line on them!!!

Eh...Eh...Eh...

[Southron Sr.]

I seem to recall a Nationals, years and years ago, where the team that won the Stake Event used RAMRODS to break their stake! If I recall correctly, it took only ONE VOLLEY to brake their stake.

Is this correct?

Anyone recall the name of the unit, the date of that Nationals, etc?

STAKE VARIATION-

THE LADDER STAKE

One variation I have seen is where there are 3 "Rungs" of "Stakes." The rungs are held together by wires with a separation of 6 vertical inches between each rung. The Stakes are 2 feet long and 3 Inches wide with vertical black stripes on their center.

Then the "Rungs" must be broken in the order of Bottom-Middle-Top to count.

This is another FUN, FUN, FUN, variation of the Stake Event.

THE "NO BITCH" STAKE EVENT.

Hint to Host Team - Make the Stake Event the last event of your Skirmish (to give your Stat people more time to finish their calculations of the skirmish winners.) DO NOT USE the times of the Stake Event to determine the winners of the Musket or Carbine Team Skirmish-but make the Stake Event a entirely separate event, giving only a 1st Place prize to the team that cuts their stake in half in the least amount of time.

That way, the people that shoot in the Skirmish cannot complain that the Stake Event is a "Luck" event in determining the overall winner of the Skirmish, yet, the Stake Event does count because it has its own separate prize category!

[Ron/The Old Reb]

The best stake event was the stake and eggs. You had to brake the eggs before you could shoot at the stake. Remember

[Mike McDaniel]

Luck? Not much luck involved, just good marksmanship. But good enough to hit a pigeon wasn't enough, you needed X-ring accuracy and a good firing plan.

[Eggman]

One last shot at this beat to death topic.
Sir John is right - all my experience with shooting wood is from back in my round ball era, and they were always 4X4s. I shot this match numerous times and loved it every time. My only "win" was the one above. Shooting pine is a novelty match, and shooting pine presents the shooter with a whole new set of marvelous conundrums. Southren's descriptions are very good, but here are the wrinkles I would add.
Assign each team a post (I'm a 4X4 man-- also much more stringy) and give the team a little time for some target analysis so they can decide where and how they want to cut it. Let them hang it or post it any configuration they want as long as it's the correct distance. Allow them to draw their own line if they wish - the object is to cut the post -- who cares where. Be sure every team understrands you obtained the lowest grade, knottiest, stringiest, most unfair wood you could find. Announce you will award ten places so everyone keeps shooting. The end result, at least in my experience, is the most entertaining shooting you'll ever see.
(Footnote: It's possible that luck might play a role in a match like this and a group of mediocre B teamers might win it, which is -------bad???)

[Charlie Hahn]

The "OLD" stake event was a 6 foot 2 x 6 planted in the ground with a line about 6 inches up. The event was 8 minutes. There where a variety of "altered" bullets used, and the "skip" method was used as well. The last one of these I saw was at Fort Meade. Luck was part of it, but it was fun. Would be nice for a bragging right event, but would not fit our current venue.

C Hahn

[RaiderANV]

HECK,,,,,,,,,,,,, I want-ah see them bring back the quarter stick hidden behind the stake event. Sure was fun when your round found that sucker.

[hp gregory]

boy the stake event was a real sore subect for us a few years back. the problem started when host teams thought it was cool to use particle board that had counter top glued on one side. the only way you could cut one of those stakes was to shoot a runing power saw or a hungry beaver at it. for quite a while you didnt see anyone brave enough to use stakes as a skirmish target. when the stake finaly came back a few years later they were of the proper size and material. this made things a lot more fair for everyone. i think a stake at a fun skirmish is fine however i would hate to see it included in the nationals. like john said. its a game of skill and there is a lot of luck involved with a stake. i think targets that you can see and that will break when hit are best for a shooting match.

hp gregory

[pastore]

i think targets that you can see and that will break when hit are best for a shooting match.

hp gregory

My sentiments exactly ! I don't understand why this concept seems to be completely foriegn to so many people .

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

My sentiments exactly ! I don't understand why this concept seems to be completely foriegn to so many people .


HP and Fletcher, I completely agree.

Phil

[Lou Lou Lou]

You have to see the targets?

[pastore]

You have to see the targets?

It doesn't help my shooting any, it just makes me feel better about it !

[Southron Sr.]

For many years a "Stake Event" was the traditional "last event" of almost every Musket Team Match.

Stakes were NORMALLY 6 INCHES WIDE X 2 FEET LONG AND HUNG HORIZONALLY IN THE FRAME.

Most had a 1/2 inch vertical black line painted in the center for evryone to aim at.

I was always told that the Stake Event commemorated the fighting at the "Bloody Angle" in the Wilderness Campaign of 1864 where trees were cut down by rifle fire.

I don't think that we can ever go back to the "old fashioned" stake events simply because the type of Pressboard that we used back in the 1960's & 1970's is no longer available. Modern made Pressboard has a much higher resin content, making it much more difficult to "break the stake" by rifle fire.

If I recall correctly, at one Skirmish many years ago, the Raccoon Roughs broke their Stake with their first volley-only 8 shots! Needless to say, that was quite a feat of marksmanship!

The late John Stotler had an .69 Caliber "Fremont Model" M1842 he had put together using original parts and a modern made barrel. The bullet he shot was from a Modified .69 Caliber Lyman Minie Ball Mould.

He took the Lyman mould and literally bored out the nose of the mould so it cast L-O-N-G .69 Caliber Wadcutters. I am guessing that his bullets weighed somewhat over 1,000 Grains each.

John Commented to me: "I have named my .69 Caliber Rifle 'Termite,' it Kicks like a Mule and I am thinking about buying a lead mine to get enough lead to make bullets for it!"

The "Stake Event" I remember very well is a Practice Shoot of the Oglethorpe Light Infantry on Wilmington Island, Georgia in the late 1960's. We had enough members at that Practice Shoot to divide up into two musket teams and have a "Mini-Skirmish" all of our own.

I was shooting on the "B Team" and after the "A Team" had broken their Stake, they graciously volunteered to hang our Stake. When they returned from hanging our Stake, the whistle blew and we commenced firing. After everyone on the "B Team" had fired about 30 rounds each and getting more and more frustrated, ONLY A THIN SLIVER OF WOOD A QUARTER OF AN INCH WIDE HELD THE TWO HALVES OF THE STAKE TOGETHER.

Finally, Finally, Pat Henderson fired a round, and the 1/4 inch wide sliver of wood disappeared. To our amazement; both sides of the now cut in half Stake remained hanging horizontally in the target frame!!!

We were greeted by gales of laughter from the members of the "A Team." When they hung OUR stake they had hung two extra wires just a couple of inches from the black vertical line-so it was impossible for our Stake to "break."

Here are some variations of the "Stake Event:"

[1] A "Vertical Stake" This would be a standard size Stake hung vertically in the target frame.

[2] A "Ladder Stake," usually consisted of three smaller stakes wired one above the other. A team had to cul all three stakes to stop the clock.

BRIGADE SHOOTS:

These were usually done following the end of a Musket Team Match. Either two Railroad Ties of two Sawed Off Telephone Poles were planted vertically [Fence Post Style] in the ground out at 50 yards. All the Skirmishers were divided into two groups. Which ever group cut its' stake down first with rifle fire won the "Event."

Usually a Brigade Shoot was done for "Bragging Rights Only" because it was not counted as part of the regular Musket Team Matches. Some times they were done so the host team could have extra time while the Brigade Shoot was taking place to figure out the scores and determine winners.

[Maillemaker]

the only way you could cut one of those stakes was to shoot a runing power saw or a hungry beaver at it.

LOL, that was funny!


He took the Lyman mould and literally bored out the nose of the mould so it cast L-O-N-G .69 Caliber Wadcutters. I am guessing that his bullets weighed somewhat over 1,000 Grains each

LOL, someone was selling one of those molds here not too long ago! They called it a "chicken" mold or something. I wondered what the heck anyone would use it for.

Steve

[John Holland]

The overly long mould was designed for the OLD wooden stakes that were mounted vertically in the ground. The over-length, nose heavy, projectile was supposed to tumble when it hit the wooden stake, thereby taking more wood out of the stake. All you really needed was a flat nosed wadcutter to punch a clean hole through the stake.

I remember those days all too well, and I repeat....we got rid of the stake event because it involved luck, not accuracy. Luck should never play a part in a shooting match!

JDH

[Maillemaker]

Luck should never play a part in a shooting match!

Heck, it's part of every time I go shooting! :)

Steve

[RaiderANV]

Southern,,,,,,,,ya fergot the steak & eggs event where an egg was hung either side of the stake and had to be broke before the stake. Shot that many ah time at the Dare & Kingston skirmishes.Not many fun events anymore like poker chips, picket fences, life savers, 7-11 coffee dreamers....the list is long. =(

[John Holland]

PJ - All of the novelty targeting is just fine for a fun shoot, but never for a National Championship.

JDH

[ms3635v]

The 150th PA shot a 23 second stake in a carbine match (5 shooters) at Palmerton Gub Club, PA, in 1979.

[RaiderANV]

PJ - All of the novelty targeting is just fine for a fun shoot, but never for a National Championship.JDH Agreed John,,,,,,,,,,,I didn't mean Nationals.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

And the cap tins. With I guess was lime in them. Loading the Minnie back wards did number on the stake also.

[hwaugh]

There is nothing like a stake event for spectators to get a feel for the excitment of skirmishing. Though luck can play a a role in the stake event, there is a lot of strategy and skill that I have seen employed from as mentioned earlier to using inverted minies, to dividing up the board, to shooting the ends of the board to get the board to wiggle in hopes of breaking a well shot out middle. How about a few more tricks used by some of us old time shooters to take that board down.

Harry Waugh - 3731V - Terry's Texas Rangers

[Ron/The Old Reb]

The garbage can shoots were a lot of fun also.
Put the fun back in skirmishing.http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

[Brian]

I can remember a few years back....maybe 7-8 or so, when we had a regional meeting here in the MA Region and the stake event was thoroughly discussed. To the best of my memory the end result was that we banned the "stake event from MA shoots. After talking to other MA members, they too remember this debate and the same end result.
Conveniently, this bogus event has made its' way back into our schedule. The minutes covering this banning have been " lost" or "misplaced" or I don't know what.
Personally, if our team is 500+ seconds behind in a match of ANY gun, and shoot the stake event, breaking it in one volley while no other team breaks it at all..( no teams breaking the stake happens more than enough). we would not want that 1st place medal!! What would it mean to us? Nothing! Might as well go down to the local awards store and buy a medal to hang up, carries the same amount of pride with it....
Now if a host team want to add this event to the end of a match for fun, not including the time for total match time, then most teams would be ok with that.
There is a reason we don't shoot the stake at a National......because its' a luck event, taking marksmanship out of the event totally.
I agree with HP, lets stick to targets that break when you hit them. Brian

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

Brian,

I agree. Its my personal opinion that our various firearms competitions should be decided by targets being broke or in some cases marked by a well aimed shot.

[Maillemaker]

Yeah I agree you want to shoot at targets with no ambiguity to the results.

That said, the stake event sounds fun.

Steve

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Good Idea including a stake of other fun event and not counting it for team standings. But why last? Do you want some folks to opt out?

[Dheisey#7003]

I remember shooting a stake event at a MA regional about 8-9 years ago. The stakes had cardboard glued to both sides of them with some phenolic resin glue. Ours never broke. We tried everything but one tiny sliver held everything together. This may have been the precursor to the stake banning, I don't know...
I remember one shoot with the old low density fiber board where the host team painted "holes" in black on them...It was interesting...

[RaiderANV]

Stakes are fun when made of the correct material. Back in the day guys would shoot whatever was placed in front of them and love it.At some point with teams jockeying for the winners circle one by one they found reasons to get rid of targets that didn't suit their needs.The stake event is not luck,,,,,,,if you have the eyesight to see where it needs to be hit you call it out and that's where the rounds get placed not unlike trying to hit that lil' X during individuals. I guess when I can't see that little bridge holding it together anymore I might not enjoy it as much either,,,,,,but I'll shor' shoot it. =)

[Maillemaker]

Dunno why people don't use good-old fashioned real wood for the stakes, like a 2x6? Cost? It doesn't surprise me that laminates would be hard to break.

I always enjoy shooting at the big pieces of sheet rock with the timed matches where at the end they count the number of holes in the panel. I like the big "poof" the sheet rock makes when you hit it! :)

Steve

[Muley Gil]

"I seem to recall a Nationals, years and years ago, where the team that won the Stake Event used RAMRODS to break their stake! If I recall correctly, it took only ONE VOLLEY to brake their stake.

Is this correct?

Anyone recall the name of the unit, the date of that Nationals, etc?"

I was present at that National. I believe it was in the early '70s and the time was something like 8 seconds. At the next board meeting, a rule that stated ONLY approved lead bullets could be used was adopted. :D

Can't remember the team name either. Heck, I can barely remember MY name!

[John Holland]

Laurel Brigade.

[Mike Hale]

...and most exasperating events to shoot! Back in the " 70's when stakes were often included in events, a team could be doing well and loose a skirmish on the stake event, but they were always fun....our team did quite well on the musket event at the last CV Regional match with a 29 second stake event and we were happy!

This was very unusual for us and gratifying!