Historic Ammuniton

[JLancaster]

Hi there,

After reviewing the NSSA rules, I am curious whether an 1855 style U.S./C.S.A. paper-cartridge would be an acceptable form of ammunition? The powder charge is contained in an inner cylinder formed of "heavy rocket paper" which is really just a light cardboard.

Also, am I to understand that no wadding is to be used in loading? Say in a smoothbore musket using a paper-cartridge. From what I gather it seems like using historic ammunition is out of the question.

Cheers,
JD

[Maillemaker]

Balls in the N-SSA are shot "naked". That is, no paper goes down the tube with the bullet.

Most people use reuseable plastic tubes to store the powder charge in, with the bullet stuck in the open end as a plug. To use the cartridge, you squeeze/pull out the bullet, dump in your charge, and then ram the naked (but lubed) bullet down the barrel.

I don't know what the rationalle is for not using authentic cartridges. I'm guessing it is a cook-off safety concern.

I've thought it might be fun to have an "authentic cartridge" category.

Steve

[mike davenport]

There is a danger of fires on the range with paper wadding and other types of traditional cartridges. Plus the clean up of all the "patches" on the firing line it they were allowed.

[hp gregory]

i dont know about paper patches but i can promise you that cloth patches present no fire hazard. if that were the case the national range at friendship would have burned down several million rounds and 60 years ago. they dont clean up patches out there but if it were required that could be a problem for sure. they just let the mower chew them up.

hp

[JLancaster]

Thanks for the replies,

Yeah, I actually try to look for remnant paper from cartridges when I shoot, and can rarely find anything. I am convinced that the paper in a paper-cartridge literally burns up almost immediately, or shreds to very fine pieces not distinguishable on the ground surface (which I suppose could be a problem with hundreds of shots). A large portion of the paper for a smoothbore actually remains wrapped on the ball as it moves down-range in most cases, falling off at the target. I use authentic paper-cartridges exclusively when I shoot, and do not see how they could present a danger on the firing line. Indeed, I dont think the technology would have been utilized for so long if it was unsafe on the battlefield.

I have indeed seen cloth patches sit and smolder for quite some time.

What about accuracy? It seems like a lot would be lost by not loading these weapons as they should be. I saw something about wrapping a ball for a smoothbore in tin-foil? What is that about? I understand that their was experiments with foil cartridges during the Civil War, but surviving examples are only for pistols or revolving rifles according to Hoyem, (2005).

Please keep in mind, I am not criticizing, just curious and want to understand. To be honest, I run a company where I produce and sell reproduction live-fire paper-cartridges. I would like to make products that are usable by the NSSA, but this doesn't seem possible at the moment. I really like the idea of historical-shooting (what I call it), but in my mind the idea involves the use of authentic ammunition and loading practices. Perhaps their should be an authentic ammunition competition.

Best Regards,
J. Lancaster

[JLancaster]

Actually, now that I look at it, A majority of Rifle-Musket cartridges were actually not loaded with any of the paper, with the exception of the Enfield. In that case, as far as I can tell it seems that an 1855 model cartridge with the cardboard powder-case would be an acceptable form of ammunition for the NSSA.

J.L.

[Blair]

I believe Safety is the primary issue in this case.
The paper cartridge are time consuming to construct, they are used once and discarded, and the paper wont protect your powder from moisture/rainy weather.
Paper patching material, like on the Pritchett type bullets also uses lube on the out side of the paper cartridge. This can burn like a candle wick after the flame is blown out, causing cook offs.
The plastic/venal cap plugs helps to eliminate all these factors.

I have no problem with proper paper wrapped cartridges bound up in Arsenal packs for demo and/or display purposes for showing the public the authentic side of things.
One does not need "real" black powder in these types of displays. Nor does one need to have bullets that actually fit into the bore of the firearms being displayed. (each are Safety concerns when setting up historical displays)
Blair

[Maillemaker]

It seems like a lot would be lost by not loading these weapons as they should be.

One of the criticisms you will hear about the N-SSA is "fantasy guns firing fantasy bullets". There is a grain of truth to that.

Section 17f of the rules state:

f. Cartridges for muzzleloading arms must consist of a cardboard or plastic
cylinder, sealed on one end. No cartridge shall be employed that allows the
ramrod to be pushed through the cylinder. No cartridge may be used that is
designed to be set in place on, in, or around the muzzle.

Presumably an authentic cartridge tube, assuming it could be considered to be made of cardboard, could be used to make up cartridges, provided you removed the ball from the paper and did not push any of the paper cartridge down the barrel with the bullet.

I would expect one to suffer a time penalty with this fidgeting compared to popping the bullet out of the usual plastic tube.

Steve

[Eggman]

Funny I've been around the N-SSA since '90 and never heard that criticism. What kind of people are you hanging out with Steve? Stick with Ed and you won't hear garbage like that. Although come to think of it I did hear Ed use that dispicable term "defarb" once.
Tell your critic to ponder the wide variety of projectiles in use in the 1860s as well as the wide variety of arms. I feel our experimentation with same keeps a great tradition alive.
The concessions the N-SSA makes are generally to safety, and allowing enough flexibility in firearm selection so that everyone gets a chance to have fun SHOOTING what they want to shoot and still be "authentic," within reasonable limits. Most of this particular discussion revolves around the safety angle. Watch the safety procedures during an N-SSA skirmish and then go watch one of your usual reenactor "battles." Which one makes your hair stand on end?
Everyone falls on a different place on the authenticity scale. Reeanctors cannot stand the "Euroarms" stamp on their muskets, and I can't stand inline zip actions and plastic stocks in muzzleloaders. But generally we all tolerate each other.

[Maillemaker]

Funny I've been around the N-SSA since '90 and never heard that criticism. What kind of people are you hanging out with Steve?

Reenactors, of course. :)


Tell your critic to ponder the wide variety of projectiles in use in the 1860s as well as the wide variety of arms. I feel our experimentation with same keeps a great tradition alive.

This wouldn't carry much weight with a reenactor. They would probably say that if your goal is to experience shooting Civil War era firearms as they were shot in period, you should only be using what they were known to use.

I personally don't care, as we aren't doing reenacting. I just ordered a new RCBS-Hogdon skirmisher bullet mold in .575 for my new Whitacre barrel and another 100 plastic tubes for cartridges.

Steve

[John Holland]

JLancaster - Do you have a website where we can see your products?

JDH

[JLancaster]

Of course sir,

I sent you a private message with the link (I think, it is not showing up in my sent messages folder), I believe the link is also available on my profile. I have been trying to avoid being banned for advertising, or else I would just post here. Although I see that some other suppliers seem to be ignoring that rule.

J. Lancaster

[JLancaster]

P.S.

One more thing, to those that find themselves on my new website, it is still under construction, but is mostly complete. I expect to have it finished by next week sometime.

JL

[MR. GADGET]

I always thought it was funny that we could not use cardboard tubes or paper on a muzzle loader but the sharps can use the paper and cardboard tubes.......

[JLancaster]

"John Holland asks a very good question concerning a web site for more details."

I don't want to seem like I am trying to advertise on the forum. I know how annoying that can be sometimes. I will send a personal message with a link.

Regarding the cardboard tubes. What I make is a reproduction of the 1855 Ordnance Manual's Rifle-Musket Cartridge. The powder is contained in a small 'cup' inside the cartridge, made of cardboard and paper. This is designed to just be disposed of when emptied, but could be reused if wanted.

Cheers,
J.L.

[JLancaster]

Strange, thought I was just responding to a message ... sorry gents, disregard my last message.

[Southron Sr.]

The use of paper patched bullets in N-SSA competition is forbidden, probably because of the mistaken belief that paper patched bullets will present a "Cook Off" hazard or a Grass Fire hazard.

Neither is the case, but "Old Myths" die hard.

[Lou Lou Lou]

At $1 apiece for the unfinished tubes it may be a tough sell to skirmishers who fire 1,000+ rounds a year.
Forgive me if I mis-understood what was posted on the web site. It is too rich for my blood.

[JLancaster]

Indeed, that could get quite expensive, and has been a constant struggle of mine. At my scale (just myself at home) I have had to make a choice between making a cheap, shoddily made, and inauthentic product, or, a well made, authentic, and not so cheap product. What I chose is authenticity, not economy, even given the fact that the cartridge will be torn up, and not reused, I feel authenticity is important. My prices are based mostly on the price of the ball/elongated-ball in the cartridge, which I purchase from suppliers such as The Gun Works and Track of the Wolf, and in the case of the 1855 cartridge, the delicate work that goes into its construction.

But like I say, the website is not live yet, and I am glad to get your reaction on the price of that particular item. I will have to revisit the subject and see what I can do about the price. Essentially I need to find another traditional style 500gr, .575 diameter Elongated Ball.

In an attempt to make things more affordable, I will be offering bulk discounts/specials on orders of more than twenty cartridges.

[Space Cowboy]

Hi JLancester,

I chacked your sight. Very interesting, congratulations for this business idea. I like it!

Please let e give you some info about the Austrian cartridges, as the ones on yours picture does not seem accurate repros. The folding style on yur pictures can be ok for the blinde cartridges, and nullshrot cartridges of the 1700s, however from the Napoleonic ere there were many changes to the design.
Here is the pic of the 1798 M cartridge with 8 g BP + wad + 15,6 mm ball.
489

From 1835 the army started to use the Console stye tube lock iginition system with a new self opening patrone:
490
Tehse patrons were quick to load, but fragile to store, so in 1844 they went back to the original design according to the suggestions of Vincenz Augustin. The new patron had the percussion tube attached to the paper cartridge with a wire.
491

SC

[Space Cowboy]

Some more pictures:

Repro of the Console cartridge. Sohow the structure of the self opening mechanism:
492
Repro of the 1844 catridge
493
And repro of the 1842 M kammerbüchse cartridge
494
Folding istructions from the original manual:
495

[Maillemaker]

I like the idea of shooting using authentic cartridges but Lou is right - cost is an issue. Many skirmishers easily shoot 500 rounds a year, double that or higher if you go every month. At $1 a cartridge, you are talking about one firearm's worth of cash just in cartridges. Even at $.25 a cartridge I think I would be hard pressed to want to throw away that money when I didn't have to.

But, I think it would be really cool to have an "authentic cartridge" category of competition, if even only as a demonstration match.

Steve

[Blair]

Balazs, aka, "Space Cowboy"


Very good information, thank you for posting.

"Historic Ammunition" can be very complex in the variations used for period construction.
This is not to say that these types of cartridges do not have a prominent place within a capacity for a good Historical demonstration.
However, the firing line is not the place for this type of historical demonstration.

Demonstrations don’t require the usage of real powder for, what I feel, are obvious safety reasons.
Reenacters don't use real bullets in their cartridges, for what I feel, are obvious safety reasons. A powder filled paper tube demonstrates a firing Musket just fine without all the added construction complexities.
So... ?

[David Disher 12143]

Imagine 4-500 shooters on the line, and there's a light breeze. Given the close (25ft) proximity of as many bullet boxes in the make-ready area, and all it would take is for one box of linen sharps or cardboard tubes to catch a stray fragment of burning paper. I can just see the horrific result of such an incident. Keep paper far away. I would rather be a little less authentic and a lot more safe.

D

[JLancaster]

Space Cowboy:

Thanks for the great information and comments. The Austrian cartridges on my site are indeed only intended to replicate 18th century Austrian Cartridge styles and early 19th century at best, based on only a few photos of originals. I have been looking, without much luck, for the info that you have just posted. Where do I find more?

As to price of cartridges and the firing line...I certainly agree that my cartridges are not a good option for those shooting 5-1000+ rounds per year. At that point you should certainly be making your own or using some of these plastic tubes I have seen around. But I like the idea of having a separate competition, or demonstration of historical loading and firing practices at events. I am willing to sponsor the ammunition for such an event.

Also, in response to the public demonstration purposes, I make dummy cartridges by special request for demonstration and collectors, and blank cartridge tubes for the reenactors out there.

J. Lancaster

[Space Cowboy]

Your welcome. These informations are available from old manuals. You can have a summary of them from Anton Dolleczek's book, but it is not accurate. I suggest you to look for the oroginal service manuals, field instructions, shooting regulations. You can find many of them on google books for free.

If you can still find some Morion Reprints books, look for Unterberger, Dub, Beroaldo-Bianchini, M. B. A., T. Anders, Vincenz Augustin.

I also have a book written about this subject, it will be published in October, but unfortunately in Hungarain, not English. It's about the firearms and cartridges of the 19th century Habsburg army.

Best regards,
SC

[Maillemaker]

Cool pictures, SC!

Steve

[dennis g]

I wish non-members would quit trying to change our sport just to make some bucks. It ain't broke so it don't need fixed.

[JLancaster]

Hello,

I appreciate your concerns, but assure you I am not trying to change your sport. I respect it greatly and only wish I lived in a place where I could be a member.

JLancaster

[John Holland]

dennis g -

Be nice....please! Remember, this is a PUBLIC forum, hosted by the North-South Skirmish Association for the benefit of all people from around the world who may be interested in the many facets of the American Civil War. While your opinions are respected as much as everyone else's, please be courteous to our guests. Keep in mind that everyone who visits this website is a potential member, and growth is as important to our future now, as much as it was 60 years ago.

JDH

[Damon]

Hi John,
I don't know if you are in the position to answer but is it possible to have associate membership for, say overseas persons such as myself?

[JLancaster]

To Space Cowboy,

Perhaps you could enlighten me about Austrian military calibers? What is the translation of "6/4 Loth" to decimal inches? I have never been able to figure this out, and always relied on secondary sources as a result.

J.Lancaster

[Space Cowboy]

JLancester,

The old Austro - Hungarian length and weigh units are unique in Europe. I am really not surprised that you could not find info about it. :)

The 6/4 loth indicates the weight of the lead bullet matching exactly the bore = cca. 26 g, it is the standard service caliber from 1722-1798 for 18,3 mm caliber muskets (ball caliber: 16,6 mm). 1 Wiener pound gave 21 round balls of this size. In 1798 the caliber was reduced. The new 5/4 loth muskets (23-24 balls from a wiener pound of lead, bore diameter 17,6 mm, bullet diameter 15,9 mm, bullet weight 24 g) stayed in service until 1854 - the acceptance of the Lorenz rifles.

Be careful! The 6/4 and 5/4 does not indicate the size of the actual service lead ball! It indicates the weight of the lead ball matching the caliber.

I have many original balls collected from the battlefield, they range from 23,9 - 26,5 g weight, depending on the age, manufacturer.

The caliber is also measured in special units: in lines and points, which is a dodecimal counting system. Be careful with the powder weights as well. While 1 anglo-saxon grain is equivalent of 0,0648 g, the Austro-Hungarian gran (or szemer) is 0,7 g.

1 AH step or pace (schritt) = 0,7463 m
1 AH foot = 31,6081 cm
1 AH inch = 12 line = 26,34050 mm
1 AH line = 12 point = 2,19505 mm
1 AH point = 0,18292 mm
1 AH lat (loth) = 4 weights = 17,5019 g
1 AH weight = 4,3755 g
1 AH gran (szemer) = 0,0700 g

The names of the calibers from 1798:

1798-1844 infantry muskets, dragoon muskets, cavalry carbines, cavalry pistols: 8III bore diameter, 7III 3IV ball diameter
1842, 49, 51 Kammerbüchse: 8III 3IV bore diameter, 8III 1IV ball diameter
1854 (Lorenz) infantry rifles, carbines, pistols: 6III 4IV bore diameter, 6III 3IV bore diameter
(III = lines, IV = points)

I also have the proper info about all Lorenz cartridges, all Jägerstützen cartridges, etc...

Cheers,
SC

And some pics:

24 g round ball with tooth marks of a soldier (excavated in Hungary, from the time of the Hungarian revolution in 1848-49)
496
Lorenz bullet excavated near an old military shooting range
497
The compression of the Lorenz bullet from the manual of M. B. A.
498

[John Holland]

Hi John,
I don't know if you are in the position to answer but is it possible to have associate membership for, say overseas persons such as myself?

Damon -

To the best of my knowledge there is no provision for an associate membership in the N-SSA at this time.

John

[JLancaster]

Thanks for the great information Space Cowboy. Much appreciated.

I'd be interested in a copy of your book, even if it is in a language I do not understand. Google Translate is a miraculous thing.

Best,

J.L

[Maillemaker]

So I have been playing around with making authentic .58 Minnie cartridges also. You can see a picture of my 1855-style and 1862-style cartridges here:

http://imgur.com/a/H5PHo#2

As JLancaster noted, the 1855-style of cartridge has an inner "powder case" made of a heavy construction-paper-like paper. This is wrapped in an inner wrapper of paper, and the whole works wrapped up in another outer wrapper of paper.

The 1862-style of cartridge is made up of two identical wrappers of paper. It is simpler to construct and was adopted as an expediency over the more labor-intensive 1855 style.

In neither case is any paper put down the barrel - the lubricated bullet is removed from the cartridge and put down the barrel just as we always do.

Can these be used in N-SSA competition?

Steve

[parkranger]

Fire hazard and cook offs are both an issue with paper cartridges. The fires that burned the wounded alive at Chancellorsville and Wilderness were results of both artillery fire and bits of smoldering paper from cartridges that landed in the deep dry leaves and dry grasses in the Wilderness. It doesn't take much to light dry leaves or grass.

Same is true of bits paper ember from paper left in the bore, pour powder down a barrel hot from firing and create a draft with the action of the ramrod (especially if the fired cap was removed from the nipple before the next cartridge was rammed down) and the bellows effect can easily set off your powder charge.

Lots of first hand Civil War accounts of both issues.

GC

[Lou Lou Lou]

Steve
Does the paper cartridge slow you down as opposed to the Capplug cartridges that most use? Look forard to meeting you at Nationals.

[Maillemaker]

Fire hazard and cook offs are both an issue with paper cartridges. The fires that burned the wounded alive at Chancellorsville and Wilderness were results of both artillery fire and bits of smoldering paper from cartridges that landed in the deep dry leaves and dry grasses in the Wilderness. It doesn't take much to light dry leaves or grass.

Same is true of bits paper ember from paper left in the bore, pour powder down a barrel hot from firing and create a draft with the action of the ramrod (especially if the fired cap was removed from the nipple before the next cartridge was rammed down) and the bellows effect can easily set off your powder charge.

Please note again what I wrote about the .58 Minnie cartridge...no paper goes down the barrel with this style of cartridge.

With the .58 Minnie cartridge, the ball was always removed from the paper and inserted into the muzzle naked. In fact, it would be near impossible to make it fit down the barrel with paper as it would be too tight a fit.


Does the paper cartridge slow you down as opposed to the Capplug cartridges that most use? Look forard to meeting you at Nationals.

I have not yet tried these at the range, though I hope to do so in the near future. Powder charging should not be any different - you tear the tail off the bullet with your teeth and dump the powder down the barrel just as you do with a capplug today. Then you have to tear the cartridge in half to free the bullet. This is a step we don't have with plastic or cardboard plugs.

I'm thinking it would be fun to use these in individuals if not team matches, as speed does not matter there. I also think it would be fun to have an "authentic" match where competitors shoot using authentic-style cartridges. I also think it might be fun to have an "issued ammo" match where teams are issued arsenal packs with authentic period cartridges (60 grains of powder), though I don't know if people would have a problem shooting ammunition that they did not oversee in manufacturing.

I have not made a Nationals yet, and I'm not likely to make the one coming up, either. It's a 10 hour trip from here and I can't afford the time off work with the new job.

Steve

[Eggman]

Parkranger -- would you please provide a few examples of first hand accounts of musket cook-offs in the Civil War literature.

[John Holland]

Read the N-SSA's Rules, specifically 17.5 (f).

JDH
National I.G. Corps
N-SSA

[Mike McDaniel]

Remember, this is a PUBLIC forum, hosted by the North-South Skirmish Association for the benefit of all people from around the world who may be interested in the many facets of the American Civil War. John raises a good point. The N-SSA BB has become a resource that reaches WAY outside the N-SSA membership. You would be surprised just how many European readers we have...and the reenactors are coming to respect our knowledge of the arms and their care/feeding.

[Maillemaker]

Read the N-SSA's Rules, specifically 17.5 (f).

JDH
National I.G. Corps
N-SSA

I did. So my question is, since the 1855-style cartridge in particular has an inner 3-ply cardboard cylinder sealed at one end, does this qualify as a "cardboard cylinder sealed at one end"?

Since the rules don't state how thick the cardboard needs to be, it would seem to me that the 1855-style cartridge would meet the requirements of the rules.

I'm not sure what is meant by "No cartridge shall be employed that allows the ramrod to be pushed through the cylinder". I'm guessing this was to prohibit some style of cartridge that would allow loading the powder and the bullet all in one movement? You could drive a ramrod through an empty .58 minnie cartridge, but if you tried to do it with a loaded one you'd just make a mess.


> f. Cartridges for muzzleloading arms must consist of a cardboard or > plastic cylinder, sealed on one end. No cartridge shall be employed that > allows the ramrod to be pushed through the cylinder. No cartridge may be > used that is designed to be set in place on, in, or around the muzzle.

[Mike Hale]

...all the arguments...discussions....we had in the old barn back in the late '60's and early '70's about the rules being changed from original type front sights (must accept a bayonet) to allow "similar" front sights to improve accuracy....

[Mike McDaniel]

I'm not sure what is meant by "No cartridge shall be employed that allows the ramrod to be pushed through the cylinder". I'm guessing this was to prohibit some style of cartridge that would allow loading the powder and the bullet all in one movement?
Exactly. IIRC, in the mid-'70s there was a tube designed to let you do just that. The rule was implemented to prohibit this sort of thing.

[Maillemaker]

Exactly. IIRC, in the mid-'70s there was a tube designed to let you do just that. The rule was implemented to prohibit this sort of thing.

Thanks for the info. Authentic .58 Minnie cartridges cannot be loaded in such a manner. They won't fit down the barrel, for starters.

These cartridges are designed to simply carry the powder and ball, just like the capplugs do now. You still have to dump the powder in and you still have to put the naked, lubed ball down the barrel the same way.

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

I tried explaining this same sort of info to you by e-mail.

While the use of the period paper cartridges is (in my opinion) a very "cool" idea/concept... this statement made by you, actually says it all;
quote,
"These cartridges are designed to simply carry the powder and ball, just like the capplugs do now."


Now, here are the differences:
Paper cartridge tubes are very time consuming to produce.
Cap Plugs are reusable, paper tubes are not.
Cap Plugs protect the powder from weather and "possible" sparks during live fire.

So, how are cap plugs a better concept than paper tubes? Cartridge/ammunition construction time and the ever present safety concerns!


These are my opinions and only based on my personnel interpretations of what the Rules are Stating.

[Maillemaker]

Now, here are the differences:
Paper cartridge tubes are very time consuming to produce.
Cap Plugs are reusable, paper tubes are not.
Cap Plugs protect the powder from weather and "possible" sparks during live fire.

So, how are cap plugs a better concept than paper tubes? Cartridge/ammunition construction time and the ever present safety concerns!

Well yes, there's no doubting that authentic cartridges are time consuming to produce, and are a one-time use item. I'm not suggesting that everyone has to use them or that they should replace cap plugs.

I suppose it's true that a plastic cap plug with a bullet stuck in it is nigh-on impervious to any kind of spark, to be sure. But I don't really see that as an issue with paper cartridges, either. It's going to be a heck of a "spark" that can get into your cartridge box and burn through two or three layers of paper.

So sure, the cap plugs are better, but they lack in that they don't give you the authentic feel of real Civil War-era shooting.

So I'm still curious, since the rule does not stipulate a thickness of cardboard, whether the 3-ply wrapper of the 1855-style cartridge meets the rules of having a cardboard cylinder sealed at one end.

Steve

[Mike McDaniel]

So I'm still curious, since the rule does not stipulate a thickness of cardboard, whether the 3-ply wrapper of the 1855-style cartridge meets the rules of having a cardboard cylinder sealed at one end.

Steve

Considering the thickness of the paper tubes I have, it probably would. Those things were basically cardstock, not corrugated cardboard.

[Maillemaker]

Considering the thickness of the paper tubes I have, it probably would. Those things were basically cardstock, not corrugated cardboard.

That's encouraging. The 1855-style of cartridge has a cardstock inner case, wrapped by a paper wrapper which is then folded over the end of the case and glued closed. All of that is wrapped in the outer wrapper which is then loaded with the powder charge and the tail folded and creased to lock it in.

Here is a picture of the sealed end of the double-ply powder case:
http://i.imgur.com/BWh59.jpg

And here is a picture of the open end of the double-ply powder case:
http://i.imgur.com/CKnjC.jpg

The whole shebang then gets wrapped up with the bullet in the outer wrapper like this (the one on the right):
http://i.imgur.com/SLYq9.jpg

I don't think I'll ever use these exclusively (assuming I can) - I just got 200 of the nice rubber .58 caliber tubes which I like a lot better than the plastic tubes. But I think it would be fun to shoot authentically especially in individuals where speed doesn't matter.

Steve

[John Holland]

Since you are now asking for a "Rules Interpretation" you will have to take it to the Rules Committee. You will find the contact information in the last Skirmish Line magazine you received. You will be contacting Mr. John Robey, Chairman of the Rules Committee.

John

[Blair]

Steve,

Approach the "fun to shoot" authentic Cartridges within your Regional/Team Matches. "FIRST"
This maybe a doable option, with YOU providing the right amount of documentation for a demonstration type of shooting event.
You will not change peoples minds by Bitching about the current status quo on the public forum without going through the proper channels. Just as John Holland suggests.

But, you go right ahead and do what you feel works best for you. I do not think you will like the out come.
Just my opinion...

[Maillemaker]

Approach the "fun to shoot" authentic Cartridges within your Regional/Team Matches. "FIRST"
This maybe a doable option, with YOU providing the right amount of documentation for a demonstration type of shooting event.
You will not change peoples minds by Bitching about the current status quo on the public forum without going through the proper channels. Just as John Holland suggests.

But, you go right ahead and do what you feel works best for you. I do not think you will like the out come.
Just my opinion...

I don't think anyone is "Bitching", Blair - just seeing if anyone here knew if the rules allow for using authentic-style cartridges for N-SSA competition. Apparently not, so I will contact John as John suggested.

Steve

[Southron Sr.]

The Confederacy OFFICIALLY ADOPTED the Enfield style of cartridge...not to mention that between the North and South, Millions if not Billions of Enfield cartridges were imported from England and issued to the troops and used in battle.

Yet....if I show up at a Skirmish and try to shoot an Enfield cartridge I WILL BE IN VIOLATION OF THE N-SSA RULES!

I sincerely believe that the rule forbidding the use of paper patched bullets in N-SSA competition is based on the lack of knowledge of BOD members back in 1950. Paper patched bullets do not cause range fires nor do they cause "Cook Offs."

What I am saying is that the rules need to be changed.

[Eggman]

Fire hazard and cook offs are both an issue with paper cartridges. The fires that burned the wounded alive at Chancellorsville and Wilderness were results of both artillery fire and bits of smoldering paper from cartridges that landed in the deep dry leaves and dry grasses in the Wilderness. It doesn't take much to light dry leaves or grass.

Same is true of bits paper ember from paper left in the bore, pour powder down a barrel hot from firing and create a draft with the action of the ramrod (especially if the fired cap was removed from the nipple before the next cartridge was rammed down) and the bellows effect can easily set off your powder charge.

Lots of first hand Civil War accounts of both issues.

GC

Still looking forward to some "first hand" cook-off references in the original Civil War accounts. Still haven't encountered one in my 47 years of reading this stuff.


Also I had no idea that it was "lack of knowledge" that led to the N-SSA's used of plastic cartridges. I thought it was a prudent safety measure to prevent folks stuffing paper cartridges down their barrels between shots. Nothing like smouldering paper in barrels to keep safety officers on their toes.

[Michael T.]

I have witnessed the mess left just from patches left on the ground after an event, hate to see what it would look like if everyone went to paper casings or wraps...

[John Holland]

A few thoughts here.

Part 1 -

The use of the red plastic Cap Plugs had nothiong to do with safety. It was an improvement over the card board tubes that we had used for years. It was happenstance that some interprising individual discovered that there was a Cap Plug being manufactured that fit our needs. The card board tubes came with a separate end cap that you had to put into the tube before you could use it. The problem with the card board tubes was lube, because after awhile the tubes began to absorb the lube and became all sorts of nasty....sticky, gooey, soft, and just plain lube-soaked. They had to be replaced on a regular basis. So, the advent of Cap Plugs was the "Swan Song" for the card board tubes! If anyone hasn't seen one, go to the N-SSA Historical Center as there are some on display there. I still have some laying around, proof positive that the "Good Old Days" weren't necessarily better days.

Part 2 -

Every so often Southron Sr brings up the use of the original Pritchett bullet. By design it was an undersized projectile wrapped in lubricated paper and intended to be fired as a paper patched bullet. My dear friend has sung the praises of that bullet combination, as well he should because if you read the original documentation about it, it was superlative and caused very little barrel wear. Southron Sr knows the proper procedure to address changing a rule in the N-SSA. In fact, he has even sat on the Executive Board of the Deep South Region. He has been encouraged to pursue his hearts desire, but has made no effort to do so. If you want something done, don't expect someone else to do it for you just because you threw a rock into the pond to see where the ripples go.

John Holland

[Maillemaker]

The Confederacy OFFICIALLY ADOPTED the Enfield style of cartridge...not to mention that between the North and South, Millions if not Billions of Enfield cartridges were imported from England and issued to the troops and used in battle.

Yet....if I show up at a Skirmish and try to shoot an Enfield cartridge I WILL BE IN VIOLATION OF THE N-SSA RULES!

I sincerely believe that the rule forbidding the use of paper patched bullets in N-SSA competition is based on the lack of knowledge of BOD members back in 1950. Paper patched bullets do not cause range fires nor do they cause "Cook Offs."

What I am saying is that the rules need to be changed.

I don't have any problem with exploring this possibility, either, right now I just figured that if you wanted to experience using "authentic" ammunition you could do so and still follow the same loading procedures as we have in place today, with the same bullets and the same powder. The 1855-style cartridge was in use up until at least 1864 when the Confederacy adopted the Enfield-style cartridge universally.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

I have witnessed the mess left just from patches left on the ground after an event, hate to see what it would look like if everyone went to paper casings or wraps...

I think people will be expected to pick up their cartridges after a course of fire whether they are cardboard tubes, plastic cap plugs, or paper remnants.

Myself, I'll dump them in my tin cup on my belt just like I currently do with cap plugs.

I don't see myself ever going away from plastic/rubber plugs, in fact I just got 100 of the nice rubber plugs that I asked for for my birthday. I go through 100 rounds easily at a skirmish. I don't know that I'll want to wrap up 100 authentic rounds for every skirmish just to destroy them. But it might be fun to wrap up 25 of them for use in individual shooting.

I've emailed John Robey and will let you know what his response is.

Steve

[billdurvin]

This is a little off topic - when I skirmished in the 1970's I used the cardboard tubes (never used the plastic tubes). I have been reading posts about using aluminum foil for .69 smoothbore cartidges I would like to know how, in very great detail, (with illustrations if possible) how to make an aluminum foil cartridge for the .69 smoothbore and how it is used. Would it be possible to make an "historic cartridge" out of aluminum foil?

[Eggman]

Well the authenticity of aluminum foil might be a little suspect since it did'nt arrive until 1910.
You might get some help from that long string on smoothbores on the Forum - just put "smoothbore theory" in the search.
I meant to say MUSKET cook-offs in that last post.
I guess my assumption about those plastic tubes as a safety device was an "urban legend." A lot of us newbies have half baked ideas like this.

[RaiderANV]

In the big picture,,,,,, how many folks would really go through the time consuming process of making up paper rounds?!?!? If someone wants to approach it they can as John said ASK the rules committee for clarification on the rule in question. If it is determined to disallow your paper rounds then go through your unit & region commanders to have it brought before the board & give them your pitch. You may find out it's ok w/ the rules folks & not have to go the BOD route. Then we can all watch the 2.7 skirmishers out of 3100 use their version of "historic ammunition".

I wish ya luck!

[Blair]

Pat,

Fallowing a proper chain of command has been implied and even suggested on several levels from different persons. I guess we will just have to wait to see what the outcome will be.
I have made up authentic paper cartridges and Arsenal packs on a number of occasions. However, these were intended for demonstration. Show and tell for the public "only". I never intended to use then in live fire situation.
I used a real bullet and real powder to get them authenticly correct.
Not like the reenacters that use a cotton ball or tissue paper bullets, and pretend they have "authentic" rounds made up. Two very different kinds of show and tell!

Eggman,

There were several type of metallic foils available within the time period. One breech loader, the Gwinn and Campbell, used a foil paper combination in their cartridge. I believe it was a brass foil or perhaps it was "tin" foil. I can't remember off hand.

[Southron Sr.]

When I started Skirmishing in the late 1960's as best as I can remember, everyone was still using those old cardboard cartridge tubes for their .58 loads. Some Skirmishers actually dipped their cardboard tubes in lacquer and set them aside to dry in the sun. Supposedly the "Lacquered Cartridge Tubes" lasted longer.

The switch-over to the plastic cartridge tubes occurred sometimes early in the 1970's.

A big advantage that the plastic tubes have is that they can be washed in the family clothes washing machine to clean them-obviously, you can't do that with cardboard cartridge tubes!

[ms3635v]

To add to Blair's post, Poultney and Co. manufactured paper and foil cartridges for use in Smith and Gallager carbines.

917

[Muley Gil]

"A big advantage that the plastic tubes have is that they can be washed in the family clothes washing machine to clean them-obviously, you can't do that with cardboard cartridge tubes!"

Yeah, ya can-ONCE! :D