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medbill
11-30-2006, 10:41 AM
Hi Guys,

I have a Nixon built 1863 Springfield with a Hoyt barrel and before I go and buy a mold I am trying to find out what size/brand mold will produce the most accurate bullet for this rifle.

Are all his barrels made with a standard rate of twist and land/groove measurements? What are the guys in the winner's circle shooting? Any suggestions for loads etc?

Ok I have a ton of questions but will sit on my hands till I sort out all of the above. :)

Thanks for any and all advice and help.

Billy

P A Laake 10798
11-30-2006, 12:01 PM
Billy:

If you pull the barrel, chances are that you'll find the bore diameter and rate of twist stamped under the breech end.

medbill
11-30-2006, 12:14 PM
Excellent! Thank you!!

Billy

medbill
11-30-2006, 08:37 PM
Pulled the barrel and it reads .578 1-60 twist. Now I used my micrometer at the muzzle and I'm reading a larger bore than that. Are these "coned" at all to allow easier loading?

Thanks,

Billy

Mike w/ 34th
11-30-2006, 11:12 PM
Billy,

How many lands and grooves does it have? If it has an odd number, then you're reading land-to-groove. The bore size on a muzzleloader is the land-to-land diameter, or "minor diameter" of the barrel. I'd take Hoyt's word for it that it's .578 and get a mould and .576 sizing die. The 1-60 twist should be fine with a traditional profile minie, but you might want to get a couple different styles and experiment. It'll probably shoot a "trashcan" minie pretty well, too.

The barrel should not be coned, and in fact, muzzleloaders should be tighter at the muzzle than at the breech to keep up the seal between the minie and the barrel.

Cheers,

Mike

medbill
11-30-2006, 11:23 PM
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply.

It has seven lands and I am "guestimating" on the bore size because of that. I was gonna slug it till I read about the stamping on the bottom. At least now I have a definite direction to go in.

Being I'll be experimenting, which molds tend to cast the most true to size bullets? Meaning if they say its a .578 then it casts a .578.

I cast for bpcr and my Paul Jones mold casts exactly bore size. From what I am reading it sounds like I'm spoiled.

Gotta ask what is an example of a "Trashcan" minie?

Thanks for the help!

Billy

John Holland
12-01-2006, 12:06 AM
Billy,

I always knew the "Trash Can" as an "Ash Can". The terminology stems from the shape and looks of the bullet. It is a Lee design and mould. It is full diameter from the base to the top of the projectile, with the nose being only slightly convex. The sides have a multitude of tiny grooves all the way to the top. The base cavity is a bit shallow. I use it at 100 yards, being pretty stable due to the weight. But, I absolutely hate the aluminum Lee mould. It is just barely worth what you pay for it! A personal opinion, only.

John Holland
44th New York

medbill
12-01-2006, 12:13 AM
Thanks John,

I'm looking at RCBS, Lyman and NEI molds at the moment. I assume larger grooves to hold more lube are as beneficial when shooting Minie's as they are in black powder cartridge?

I personally like steel molds myself but then again aluminum might be a lot easier on my paws.

Billy

P A Laake 10798
12-01-2006, 09:05 AM
The musket that I shoot mostly has a Hoyt barrel with .577" bore, 1:56 twist, with 7 lands & grooves. I've shot several different style minies from the Rapine 315 mini-wadcutter, Rapine International (577455), RCBS 400 gr. Skirmisher (576-HODG) and the .58 Garnder, and have gotten the best accuracy with each when sized to .576" or .001" below bore size. Lately I've been shooting the RCBS skirmisher and it is really accurate, but it is prone to keyholing if I size more than .001" below and I'm actually sizing this minie to .5765".....the other minies work well for me sized at .576" in this barrel. The 3 groove barrels may require a little looser bullet.???

Also the minies from my 576-HODG mould come out at around .577"-.5775".....most of my moulds cast a little larger than what is stamped on the mold, but then I have an old OHAS .575 wadcutter mould that casts a perfect .574"......so you never know until you cast some bullets and measure them.

In addition, you may want to experiment with different amounts of lube in the bases. What I've found is that some barrel/bullet combinations may shoot best with no lube in the base, while others may like 4-5 drops of lube in the base and other may do best with the base filled plumb full. My lube is a mixture of about 50/50 Olive Oil/Beeswax or a mixture of 3 parts MCM/2 parts Len's Lube/1/2 part Beeswax, but in either case, I use the same lube inside the base plugs.

paul w/McGregor's 385V
12-01-2006, 09:24 AM
Billy,
Save time, money, energy.

Buy a Lyman 575213NS mould, size it to .001" under the size Bobby stamped on the barrel, .577. Lube it up, start at 35gr FFFg and work up to 50gr in 2gr increments. Somewhere in the 40gr-45gr range that combination of minie, powder, barrel are going to give you a tight group.

Once you have a "working load", then go out and buy those other moulds, and join the "this is the bullet, powder, lube to use" crowd. For your barrel you may find the Lyman mould drops them close enough that only minor sizing is needed.

For a light, accurate bullet, try the single washer Wilkerson bullet, North East Trader might still have a few moulds left.

Take care and be safe
pfb

paul w/McGregor's 385V
12-01-2006, 01:59 PM
Billy,

John L. DeWald,
Telephone # 570-546-2061
Muncie, Pa.

Take care and be safe
pfb

medbill
12-04-2006, 11:12 AM
Thanks for the help guys, just placed an order with Midway for an RCBS .576 Hodg mold and it said it casts a 412 grain bullet. Hopefully it will cast a .577 bullet and I will be good to go! Will let you guys know how it worked out.

Now whats the trick to casting Minies? Anything different than casting regular lead bullets?

Thanks again guys!

Billy

4th Va Inf

paul w/McGregor's 385V
12-04-2006, 03:22 PM
Billy,
Pure lead for muskets, alloy tends produce inconsistent results.

Heat of lead close to 800-825F, get mould close 750F for first couple of bullets. After that it should be hot enough for production.

Take care and be safe
pfb

medbill
12-04-2006, 03:37 PM
Thanks Paul! At least I don't have to worry about mixing in tin anymore!

Billy

Big Brogans
12-04-2006, 07:46 PM
Paul,
Do you know if Northeast Trader has a website?
Thank You

paul w/McGregor's 385V
12-05-2006, 07:30 AM
Big,
No website.

Phone: 570 546 2061
Fax : 570 546 2717
email : northeasttradeco@hotmail.com

Take care and be safe
pfb

Greg Edington
12-06-2006, 05:18 AM
Hello All,

I talked with John DeWald at North East Trading Company this week he is sold out of the the 437 grain Wilkinson Improved Picket bullets. John DeWald is planning to do another run of double cavity 0.576-7 and 0.580 bullets very shortly.

The 437 grain Wilkinson Improved Picket bullet is very accurate Ed Schneeman won a Gold and Silver medal with it at the 2006 World Championships in France. Ed told me the Germans were very interested in the bullet. Lee Precision has been approached several times about producing the mould as a stock item, but has refused saying they did not get any letters from shooters requesting the mould. Lee Precision uses letters from shooters as a guide for new items to produce.

John DeWald at North East Trading Company oes have in stock a limited number of 0.580 487/510 grain two wedge Williams/Wilkinson bullet moulds. The moulds were designed based on USIMLT shooter comments at the 2004 World championships held at Batesville IN. The mould cast a bullet with two wedges for extra bearing area and a heavier 3 ogive nose for better wind resistance & balance, and has a boat-tail/beveled base. The mould also has two core pins one cast a new style Williams bullet, and the other a Wilkinson bullet.

Steve, John DeWald at North East Trading Company also carries sizers that work well with these bullets and can be reached at:

Phone: (570) 546 2061
Fax : (570) 546 2717
email : northeasttradeco@hotmail.com


Best Regards:

Greg Edington
7th Reg. VA Vol Inf.

medbill
04-21-2007, 10:06 PM
Ok guys, finally got to shoot a little today. My rifle shot a group like a shot gun. Whats up, bullet to light, charge to heavy where the heck should I start. I guess I shoulda got that Lyman mold and started from there. Some of the 414gr bullets were punched nice clean keyholes in the target at 25 yards. I started at 50 but it was a waste of lead so I moved it in to 25. I was using SPG pan lubed pure lead bullets, no lube in the cavity over 45 grains of 2fg powder. I have a bad feeling I used too much powder.

Fire away any suggestions because I am in a rush here to get this rifle grouping and ready for my first skirmish.

Thanks much,

Billy

Greg Edington
04-22-2007, 07:52 PM
Billy,

The keyholes indicate that the Hodgdon bullets are either not stabilizing, or engaging the rifling right. Billy, this could be due to one or more of the following factors:

1. Your lead is too hard
2. Your bullets are too small
3. Not enough powder
4. Bad crown, bad rifling, reverse choked barrel
5. Excessively fouled or leaded barrel
6. Blown Skirt

Billy seeing that this is a new Tom Nixon rifle with a Hoyt barrel, I think you can rule out no. 4 & 5 above. Billy is your lead really soft (#1 above)? You sould be able to just about cut the skirt with a fingernail (wash your hand thoughly in cool water with soap after doing this test), and be able to squeeze the hollowbased skirt without thumb, and trigger finger. Billy if your bullets are making whistling noise going down range you are blowing skirts (#6 above) from bad castings, 45 grs of GOEX FFg will not do this with good Hodgdon bullet. I don't think your bullets are too small from a 0.576" mould, but have you measured them with a micrometer to make sure the are 0.576-7"? It is possible though unlikely your mould could be throwing a smaller bullet.

Billy, I think it is most likely though your load is too light, I ws using 48 grs. of Elephant FFFg when I shot the Hodgdon in tests with my P-H P-53 3 groove/land barrel. Billy, 45 grs. of GOEX FFg for a 7 groove barrel sounds light, I'd try going to 45 grains of GOEX FFFg or up your load of FFg powder, the skirt on the Hodgdon is a little thick and it needs some extra pressure to expand into the smaller grooves of a 7 land/groove barrel.

Billy I hope the tips help.

Best Wishes:

Greg Edington

medbill
04-22-2007, 09:49 PM
Thanks Greg,

I did the hardness check and the skirt deformed with finger pressure and my fingernail was able to cut a line in the base. Also checked the bottom skirt with my micrometer and it is .577 at the base.

I'll lube up some more and try the same charge with 3f to see what I can make happen. That bottom groove on the bullet is thick as you said. Hopefully that will be the trick.

Oh and no whistling was heard with the bullets going downrange.

Will get back to the range this Tuesday with any luck!

Thanks much,

Billy

medbill
04-19-2008, 08:31 PM
Bringing back a dead thread, I got a hold of Mr. Nixon and he told me to shoot a bullet sized to .578. I lost the paper I wrote his advice on and am scrambling to get this musket up and shooting before the first skirmish of the season on May 3-4 in Hopkingon, MA.

I'll give him a call on Monday but thought I'd ask you all now ahead of time. All the molds I bought are undersized! I picked up a Lyman Lubrizer and will get the sizing dies but need a bullet first.

Thanks for any advice.

Billy

PS: Mr. Nixon sounds like a real good guy that stands behind his work. Was real nice of him to take my call and help me out. Family health problems have kept me really busy but its a quiet week and I am hopeful that it will continue.

macvcallsign
04-20-2008, 11:50 AM
Bill,

My son and I have had great success with the RCBS Skirmish bullets. Have a large number of different guns with a number of different barrels(both maker and twists), also 5-6 Nixon guns, and all have there own little differences both in size and powder charge. Have always used 3f in all our guns.
Some of the barrels seem to settle down to a more consistent group after 200-300 rounds have gone through them. Bill Large always told me to shoot 300 rounds through one of his new barrels before playing with the sights and I have seen this with other barrels also(Hoyt, Whitacre,Etc). And than again sometimes not! :?
This of course can be frustrating at times. Started Skirmishing in 1974 with One mold, Now have over 60! that are related to Skirmish guns. :lol:
With the RCBS we use a bullet size .001 under bore size and usually between 42 and 46 grs of 3f. We pan dip with a mixture of Crisco, Beeswax, and Alox. About 70%, 15%, and 15% and add either Crisco or Beeswax to stiffen or soften depending on the temperature of the season.
Stick with it! Try different loads, 1 and 2 gr increments. It is sometimes very surprising what the differences are with just a minor change. Maybe see if you can borrow some different molds from your teammates to cast some different bullet styles or ask them to just cast you a few to try.
I took a teammates gun to the range last week(Euroarms 2 band Enfield). Loaned 5 different bullets with 11 different 3f loads. He was shooting the RCBS .578 and sizing to .576. with 45 grs of 3f and getting Keyholes. Found the right load after shooting 115 rounds was the RCBS .578 sized to .577(his gun mic'd .578 at the bore) with 40 grs of 3f. Got a nice solid 3" group at 50 yds. So you never really know till you really play with these Old-New Muzzle Stuffers! :roll: :) :wink: :o
It is a Challenge! But always fun! Nixon guns will shoot, you just have to come up with the right combination of ingredients to feed it! :lol:

Keep us all posted with your results.

Chao,

Dennis
N-SSA 4th Kentucky Cavalry, CSA

Chuck Garvey 11311
04-21-2008, 09:03 PM
Hi Billy,

I have basically the same musket that you have, built by Tom Nixon, same Hoyt barrel 7 lands/grooves 1-60 twist. I know it says .578 on the barrel, but I shoot the RCBS Hodgdon .580 bullet passed through a Rapine .580 sizer. I don't know whose numbers are off, but that is what works. I use 40 grains Swiss fff and MCM lube. It shoots right where I point. I just have to hold still. I use that load for 50 and 100 yards. I suggest that you start too big and then size down .001 at a time to get the right size. Start with a bullet that will not go down the barrel and then work down. The bullet should stick in the muzzle when you place it there and only go down when forced with the ramrod. If it falls down on its own or is loaded with the ramrod with little or no resistance, it is probably too small. My experience has been that all of Tom Nixon's guns are good shooters. Another fellow on our team has one and his shoots tight groups as well. You will need soft lead.