M1841 Mississippi 58 alterations

[Damon]

Hi all,
just wiondering which of the numerous alterations of the M1841 to 58 cal are the best for live fire, mostly in terms of the sights.

Thanks,
Damon

[SHARPS4953]

to make it NSSA legal you need to get the shorter front barrel band, a bayonet lug soldered on the barrel and the long range sight. hope it helps....................

[gemmer]

to make it NSSA legal you need to get the shorter front barrel band, a bayonet lug soldered on the barrel and the long range sight. hope it helps....................

My .58 1841 was previously owned by Doc Chambers. It doesn't have a bayonet lug and has the two leaf musket sight, and the long front band.

Duane

[Rebel Dave]

Hi Damon

I build (from scratch) and convert Euroarms Md 1841 Mississippi rfles to later conversions.

Two that I like to build are what the N-SSA call the Type "D", which uses the Md 1855 rifle long range rear sight, with range graduations of 2-3-4-5 (yards) on the side. It is mounted 2.625in(2 5/ from the rear of the breach (not including the tang) to the rear of the sight base. The front sight is the 1855 rifle type sight, mounted 31.562 in (31 9/16) from the rear of the breach, to the rear of the sight base. You also need a bayonette lug, (with no guide) mounted on the right side of the barrel 29.0 in from the breach, to the base of the lug. This would be 90* round from the front sight. this version uses the short front band with an overall stock lenght of 42.875 in (42 7/.

The other one I build is the Type "F". The bayonette lug would be the same, as is the front sight, and so are the mountings. This rifle has the 1855 Rifle 3 leaf sight dove tailed into original slot & screw mounted. the leafs are marked 1-3-5 (yards), it shorter and lower than the other, and is much like an 1861 Springfield r/ sight, with exception of the sides , it dosn't have the high round sides. It is mounted 2.875 in (2 7/ from the breach to the rear of the sight base. This version also uses the short front band. The overall stock lenght is 42.875 in (42 7/.

Both of these versions are .58 calibre.The type D can be .54 or .58

I silver solder all my sights and lugs on the barrels, it is a strong fusion. These parts are all available from some of the venders on our N-SSA sight. You can make a short front band, from a long front band, with a little sawing and soldering, or you can buy a repo one.

I am currently converting a Euroarms Miss to a "Type D", This will be for sale when complete. I glass bed all my bbls and harden all the lock parts.

Hope this info helps you out Mate.

Rebel Dave aka barracudadave67 aka Dave C.

[John Holland]

Damon: There is a wide variety of rear sights available today. The very best for quality and authenticity are those made by Rich Cross, who just happens to also be a member of the N-SSA. You have your choice of sight modifications for the Mississippi Rifle that range from three leaf, to the famous Benton Screw sight which provides for very fine adjustments in elevation, and several types of ladder slide sights that have their foundations in the British P-53 Enfield sight.

As mentioned previously, with Damon living in Queensland, Australia, I believe the "N-SSA Legal" stuff is a moot point, unless he wants to recreate an exact copy of a U.S. pre-Civil War modified Mississippi. I think from reading his post he just wants some feedback on what type of sight modifications the N-SSA shooters use, or prefer, and why. We should be able to provide him with that information, because the N-SSA has every variant of Mississippi imaginable on the firing line.

John

[Blair]

Damon,

The post 1855 alteration/modifications to the M-1841 "Mississippi" Rifles are really quite complex in their variety.

My suggestion to you is try to find out what it is you want. I might be able to help you with that, by sending you some of the information you may need.
Rear sights can be very complex. Bore diameters are less involved but can determan some of the other options available to you.

Again, my suggestion is that if you want to make any one of these changes... do it with some sort of authenticity to suport your wants and/or needs.
The drawings available from the SAC on these arms is very helpful in this choice.
Blair

[Damon]

Thanks all,
I would like to create a exact as I can copy of a pre-war alteration to the M1841 to 58 cal. I figured that having one that is also a good shooter based on the sights would be a real bonus as well.

Even though I am in Australia I view the opinions of the N-SSA and this board as a really good knoweldge base, as a have a real interest in the long arms of the American Civil War.

I find it a little disappointing the Pedersoli's M1841 is fitted out as the original .54 cal M1841, but I guess it also gives a blank canvas to work with.

Thanks, any extra help will be appreciated, just need to get hold a M1841 repro now.

Damon

[Blair]

Damon,

Pedersoli has made some changes to their "new" M-1841 Rifle. (along with the Enfield line, C S Richmond, and I believe the M-1861 Springfield.)
I don’t know what these changes are just yet, I will have to have one in my hands to know for sure. (Hopefully that will be sometime this week!)
They have made enough changes that they will need to submit the new improved arms to the SAC for production approval.
Blair

[Damon]

Hi John and Blair,
I have sent you both emails.

Thanks,
Damon

[Old Hickory]

Damon,

In the, "STANDARD CATALOG OF CIVIL WAR FIREARMS" by John F Graf (available from amazon.com) there are no less than 16 alterations listed, plus the standard 1841 rifle by Harpers Ferry and various contractors. These include state alterations, Harpers Ferry alterations, and others, such as Colt, (in vivid color photographs most showing the close-up details of the alterations, along with a brief discription). These are all of original firearms in various collections. As I recall the book is reasonably priced, and hopefully available to you in Austrailia. Best of luck with your project, and good shooting!

[mike davenport]

Damon
Also check out the Whitney Militia rifle. Whitney was a enterprising business man. He purchased "rejects" from the goverment arsenal, combined them with left over parts and created what i feel is a best blend of the Springfield and Harpers ferry models. I shoot one made up of a lot of original Whitney parts (stock, butplate, trigger bow , lock internals, bands0 Aand I must say it id s very "pretty" gun. Although not a "Missippi" she closely is a distant cousin. Until recently these were only available in original or custom made. James River produced these as a production model. You may be able to replicate even though you are far away.
Mike Davenport
Dismal Swamp Rangers

[Moses Milner]

Were there any M1841s that were left in their original configuration --non-adjustable sight, no bayonet lug, etc. -- and simply bored out to .58 caliber?
Thanks.

[John Holland]

To the best of my knowledge, yes for logistic compatibility with the then standard issue .58 caliber ammunition.

JDH

[Old Hickory]

Were there any M1841s that were left in their original configuration --non-adjustable sight, no bayonet lug, etc. -- and simply bored out to .58 caliber?
Thanks.

While it does stand to reason that this could have been done, (maybe Whitney-"Good and servicable arms?") I haven't seen any record of it or examples other than relined arms and repops. All .58 M1841 rifles I know of rebored and rifled to .58 also have some other alteration done.

Harper's Ferry 4th alteration-.58 3 groove rifling, long range M1855 sight, short nose, bayonet lug brazed on barrel.

Harper's Ferry 5th alteration-.58 3 groove rifling, M1855 3 leaf sight, short nose, bayonet lug brazed on barrel.

Colt alteration-.58, 7 groove rifling, Colt rear sight, bayonet ring clamped on barrel.

Pennsylvania alteration-.58 3 groove rifling, standard rear sight, end of barrel turned down to accept M1842 musket bayonet with lug brazed on bottom of barrel and front sight set back.

Merrill alteration-.58 patent breech loader, (paper cartridge) 3 leaf rear sight.

As far as I know, all other M1841 rifles including other Harper's Ferry and state altered contract arms remained in .54.

[Old Hickory]

According to one large and well respected dealer in Civil War guns and artifacts, some M1841 rifles were converted to .58 with the only other alteration being an all steel rammer. No provision for bayonet, no up-dated sights. I respect and trust this dealer, and if he says it's so, I beleive him, however I have not been able to confirm this with my own research.

[stump]

I have just seen Harpers ferry M1841 in 58 and steel ramrod. It is complete and all original. I have also examined a few others, so they are out there.

Stump

[Muley Gil]

What is the shape of the all steel rammer? Is it like the brass tipped Mississippi rammer?

[stump]

All steel no brass, same rod as for rifle with 55 long range rear sight.

Stump
13th Confederate Inf.

[Muley Gil]

All steel no brass, same rod as for rifle with 55 long range rear sight.

Stump
13th Confederate Inf.

So, that would be a tulip shaped head on the rammer?

[John Holland]

With all due respect, I beg to disagree. The Mississippi all steel ram rod is nothing like the Harper's Ferry Model 1855 Rifle ram rod, which just for openers, has a swell and a tulip head. The Mississippi all steel rod is also much heavier in diameter than the H.F. 1855 Rifle rod. The head of the all steel Mississippi rod is similar to the original Mississippi rod with the brass collar, but has a bit more of a flair for the last 1 1/2" to make it about 1/16th" wider at the end. The reason for this is because the original rod was for a .54 caliber bore, and the all steel rod was for the .58 caliber alterations.

JDH

[Old Hickory]

John, I think you misunderstood stumps post as I did at first also. He doesn't mean the M1855 rifle, or it's rammer, he's refering to the M1841 rifle with the M1855 rifle sights, (type 4-5 alterations in .58 done at Harper's Ferry arsenal 1857-1860).

[stump]

I was refering to the m1841 altered for the 55 rifle sight and bayonet. I guess I should have made it more clear.


Stump

[stump]

Also the steel rods where provided for the New York alterations in 54.

Stump

[Muley Gil]

With all due respect, I beg to disagree. The Mississippi all steel ram rod is nothing like the Harper's Ferry Model 1855 Rifle ram rod, which just for openers, has a swell and a tulip head. The Mississippi all steel rod is also much heavier in diameter than the H.F. 1855 Rifle rod. The head of the all steel Mississippi rod is similar to the original Mississippi rod with the brass collar, but has a bit more of a flair for the last 1 1/2" to make it about 1/16th" wider at the end. The reason for this is because the original rod was for a .54 caliber bore, and the all steel rod was for the .58 caliber alterations.

JDH

Thanks John. That's the info I was looking for.

[John Holland]

Stump - If you are referring to the SNY alterered Mississippi Rifles that were only altered for a bayonet adaption, specifically the Collins saber bayonet, and the Groz socket bayonet, they were all left in .54 caliber, and kept their original brass collared ram rods.

JDH

[stump]

John, Those are the alterations I am refering to. The saber and Grosz that I have seen both have steel ramrods and was using as a reference the article by Edward Hull which he refers to ramrods being replaced with steel by the ordnance department. I have only been studing Mississippi for a couple of years but am interested in as much info as I can get so any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Stump

[John Holland]

Stump -

I don't know which of Ed's articles you may be referring to, but the SNY alteration contracts with REmington and Groz only called for bayonet adaptions. The problem with the iron replacement ram rods is that of the interchangeability factor over the ensuing 150 years.

The 5,000 Model 1841 Rifles, that NY altered for bayonets, were issued by the Federal government to the State of New York from the Federal arsenal at Watervliet, NY. The arms in storage at Watervliet were still new, unissued, Model 1841 Rifles. I really rather doubt that the ram rods would have been replaced by the government while they were in storage at the armory. It would have been an added expense that the Gov't wouldn't have allowed at that time. When Congress later in 1861 allowed for the states to be reimbursed for expenditures for arming state troops in the call to arms New York State smelled money, and jumped on the band wagon. New York State then filed for reimbursment for having altered the Mississippi Rifles, they had received from Watervliet, to accept bayonets. The Federal review board found the charges to be reasonable, and allowed NY to be reimbursed for the costs of altering the rifles for bayonets and also for the costs of the bayonets and scabbards themselves.


The Model 1841 Rifle is one of my favorites! OK, along with the Harper's Ferry 1803, the 1817 Common Rifle....and....and....


JDH

[stump]

John,
Thanks for the information, the article I am refering to is The Remington Model 1841 Rifle and its Alterations by New York, from The Gun Report Oct 1995. "the ordance department had substituted iron tipped ramrods(in place of the original brass tipped version) circa 1855."(pg 21).So from this information the ramrods had already been replaced. The information is also available in Rifles of the U.S. Army 1861-1906 by John D. McAuley. Of the New York alterations I have had an opportunity to look at the majority have steel rods. So this is what I based my statement on. So just trying to get as much info as possible thats why I like the N-SSA I can learn more all the time. If you like I could send you a copy of the article. Thanks again.

Jim Fedorko
13th Confederate Inf.

[nightstalker]

Hi Dave,
I too am in the process of putting together a type "D" Mississippi rifle and had been searching for a rear sight. I've heard of this "Benton" sight numerous times but have never been able to locate a picture of one. Would anyone have a photo they would like to share ?
Also, would this Benton screw sight be legal for this D type alteration as well ?
Thanks, Nightstalker

[Damon]

Here the repro Benton rear sight on the S and S Firearms website.
http://ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=41S134

[John Holland]

Nightstalker - To use the Benton Screw sight on your Mississippi, Type D, you would be required to add a long guide bar to the bayonet lug, and change the front sight back to the original brass blade. You would then have Benton, Type 2, Mississippi Rifle.

JDH
SAC