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Pat in Virginia
01-13-2012, 04:32 PM
Links to pictures mentioned in this article (you will probably have to paste them in your browser manually):

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Recently, I had the opportunity to purchase a mould for a Pritchett bullet for .577 rifled muskets, Enfields. I received a lot more value than just the mould itself. Tim Busby who for ten years was NZ’s long range Rifle Musket champion was the one offering the mould for sale. He shared much valuable information with me regarding his experience and thoughts about loading procedures and bullet design, including a bit of information on his loading procedure recommendations for the Whitworth. As you will see from what follows in this multipart post, Tim had, what are to me, some novel approaches that I intend to try out.

He sent me pictures of items associated with some of his comments. I will put them in PhotoBucket and post the links here (see above). Please, let me know if you have trouble accessing the pictures. As there is a 5000 character limit per post on some forums, I will have to divide the following exchange of questions (on my part) and information (on Tim’s part) into multiple posts (5 probably) for some of them. Since this really is a compendium of numerous exchanges I don’t think I’m really bending the rules regarding 5000 characters per post. Also, I think many will appreciate having the opportunity to digest what Tim had to say and, hopefully, find it valuable. I certainly did.

Some follow-up questions that I asked were to make absolutely sure I understood what Tim intended in his replies. Often I thought I knew what he intended, but I did not want to trust my understanding and miss out on what Tim really meant if my assumption was incorrect.

To make sure you will be able to quickly distinguish what I am asking and what Tim is saying I often will preface Tim’s statements/response with “(Tim said) or (Tim Responded)“. I intend to post this on several forums that all do different things with text and pictures so I’m trying to make it easy on myself and clear to you as to who said what. Color coding, etc. get to be too much work given multiple forums.

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Hi Pat (This is obviously from Tim, so no “(Tim said) –“.
The bullet casts out at .564 in pure lead, and is less than .001 out of round. I sized/swaged all my bullets down to .563. It was designed to be used with ‘onion skin’ paper, it takes std large mould handles, depending on how you configure your base plug, (Wax/clay/wood/wax-wad etc) it weighs a nominal 525gr BUT I also further used to hollow point the bullets to allow me to shoot with excellent accuracy out to 1000yards.It shoots only a bit better than a ‘common’ cannalured bullet at short range (300y) but its benefit was past 600, where it retained velocity better than a ‘grease groove’ projectile.Base pug bullets shoot far better than any hollow base…

Depending on what twist your barrel has, accuracy is moot. With 1-78 twist I struggled to keep shoots on the 8’ x 6’ target beyond 800y. At 500 yards off a rest it could shoot inside 2’With 1-48 twist, on a calm day I could keep +90% of shots on at 1000y, and all shots inside 1’ off a rest at 500y…

Hi Pat
I spent many years researching and shooting rifled muskets, and cut through much of the hype and found what did or did not work in ANY rifle musket.

For over 10 years I was, and it was with much satisfaction that I used to shoot on-a-par with .451 match rifles out to 500y with my .577s

Much of my testing was based from the work of Metford, and Pritchett, utilizing HP ‘explosive’ projectiles and the ‘Express’ bullet.

Pretty well in ANY rifle-musket, a shallow base bullet is better than a deep hollow base. And Hollow point is FAR superior again; hollowing the bullet moves the mass to the periphery there by enhancing gyroscopic procession. The proviso being that the slower the rifling twist, the deeper and larger dia the hollow point needs to be; eg: I used to shoot my 1-78 Enfields out to 600m with great accuracy with a flat base 500gr bullet, but the projectile had a .25” dia hollow that was just under .875 deep.

With any rifle musket with a ‘fast twist, e.g. 1-48, 1-40, flat base hollow point bullets are superior in all instances; easier to cast, load, shoot and clean. And with a heavy barrel, +1200fps mv will see you out to 1000y with confidence; albeit a well padded jacket is needed as recoil when prone with +550gr .577 is ‘memorable’.

With all slow-twist arms, projectile length becomes critical. They won’t shoot a ‘long’ bullet unless the hollow base/nose is of a large dia. Slow twist, .58, and bullets should be no longer than 1”, to generalize.

If you desire to retain a hollow base, plugging is very advantageous. Filling the base not quite full with wax, leaving just enough room to seat a thin card wad into the base and flush with the bottom of the bullet is ideal. Load with an over bore size +.002” dia card ‘sweeper wad’ and a dry lubed felt wad. Gives Consistent expansion and can shoot all day without any need for cleaning. Flat base bullets, weight for weight v’s hollow base, shoot with a higher velocity.

If you are mad keen, ‘mould’ tiny little truncated cone plugs out of plaster of Paris, matched to the base cavity and 1/8” shorter than the base hollow, so that they JUST sit proud of the base. But you will soon give up as it is a LOT of work…
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Typically I patched/lubed/sized all musket balls to be with in .002” of bore size, BUT when using a plugged hollow base AND in tapered rifling you can pretty much use any bullet dia that comes to hand. Tapered rifling and a plugged, hollow base/nose bullet will shoot off a rest out to 800y and easily keep all shots well centered on a 6’x8’ target;1-2” groups at 100y, 2-3” at 200, 6” at 300…

A real advantage of hollow nose bullets at long range is ‘spotting’ the fall of shots, especially on wet ground. You will see EVERY shot land!Down side of HP bullets is that they totally wreck target frames.

To enable shooting all day without cleaning with Pre 1995 Goex powder I used a Dry lubed felt wad, then a +bore dia card wad (picture framing mount board).For consistency, I always cut the ‘mount board’ color side up; so that I always loaded the wads into the bore the same way every time; the wads when punched out of the card have a ‘face’ and a back; always load the wads with the same orientation or the scraping action is not consistent.If you have the time, load each wad separately and slowly to optimize/maximize the scraping action. I was never a fan of ‘grease’ cookies, they added to the fouling mass and gummed up the chamber. Dry lubed felt wad, (water-soluble oil 10-1 soaked and the water allowed evaporating) was better for me.

Bullet base condition is important especially with hollow base and no ‘plug’. I used to ‘face’ the base of each individual bullet: hold in a ‘collet’ mounted in a drill press, using a low speed lightly press down onto a sheet of plywood. Alternatively, simply holding the bullet down onto the plywood surface and ‘circulate’ the bullet.

Powder charges varied from case to case of powder, (I always bought powder by the case) I always aimed for 1050-1100fps max. So the powder charges varied from 70-85gr; over 85gr and recoil starts to be detracting.

The mould - Note the thick base and sprue plates… decent locating pins… Premium item.As you can see, the mould is fully adjustable for length, so you can make a bullet to suit slow or fast twist barrels…

[2 of 5 to follow]

Pat in Virginia
01-13-2012, 04:40 PM
(2 of whatwever)

Hi Pat

In ALL the Whitworths that I have owned and shot, the BEST thing I did to make them ‘go’ was to use a ‘Triple wad’ sandwich:grove dia hex card wad, beeswax-castor oil lubed hex felt wad no less than 1/3” thick, (engineers wool felt) and then another hex card wad.An excellent ‘bore scrapper, gas-check, lubricator’!!

Anything less than that wad column used to see wads being pinched under/in-between the bullet base and the bore in the ‘corners’ of the rifling; Flyers! LWith out any wads, fouling was bad, velocity was terrible (low and inconsistent), and accuracy was NOT a word that was often used. Gas-cutting was (is) chronic. L

Tim
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(Tim said) Now, I was just rummaging through my mould cupboard, and I came across a long forgotten PH .451 x 525gr mould and sizer. This is one of the original Lyman made moulds for the very first PH Volunteer rifles, NOT the latter 457 500gr bullet.
Would you be interested?

(Pat replied after looking at Picture of the PH mould) - Tim, when it comes to muzzle loader target bullets, I like as much bullet bearing surface as I can get. Your Pritchett mould has that. The Lyman mould has a design suitable for a metallic cartridge breech loader where that long nose can ride and be supported by the lands. That long nose unsupported and in soft lead is apt to slump in my humble opinion. And, that is why my interest has faded in it.

(Tim Replied) - Your observations are correct; in theory. It was quite probably a .44 cartridge bullet when first made? ;-)

I originally had similar reservations as you do. In reality, the bullets upset perfectly with no evidence of any slumping what so ever. This was most vividly evident when used in the Whitworth: optical study of recovered ‘perfect’ bullets, under a binocular microscope revealed less than .001” difference in nose ‘hex’ length, and a check with a dial indicator revealed no disparity against projectiles with a longer body section. Velocity wise; average speeds were slightly higher, accuracy? Moot point as I reckon that most of the problem I had with ‘off’ accuracy was me, not the rifle or the load. (I was often ‘out-shot’ when I loaned out my rifles.)

I also used to deeply Hollow point these bullets for use in 1-36 and slower .45 barrels. An Express Bullet; they upset pretty much Full-length and for me they were unsurpassed for hunting. A shallow Hollow in this bullet to bring the weight down to 500gr +/- was the best I used for under 600y use.

382 (http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z353/Pat_in_Virginia/LRML/Timsprojectiles.jpg)The attached pic are of the .451 as cast sized and lubed, next the same bullet as fired from a Whitworth and recovered at 800y; note the fore shortening. Next the ‘common’ 500gr bullet that many use in 1-20 / 1-18 twists. It not easy to see, but the ‘as recovered’ WW (Whitworth) bullet shows that the Upset is nearly the same length as the body length of the ‘500gr’ But the ‘Upset’ is tapered; less bore friction. Last bullet is a sectioned Mk IX Snider bullet. This is the ‘short’ compromise 480gr bullet that was used to enable ‘acceptable’ accuracy in both slow and fast twist .577 Snider. Way too short for the 1-48 twist, and without a base plug the Bullets ‘Blow-thru’; a shooting donut.


(Tim said) - I have a variety of ‘different’ NSSA bullets that had been sent to be by several NSSA participants.I used to ‘swap’ Bullets, 20 at a time, my ‘Metford’ hollow point style bullets for what ever the sender considered their best for 50/100y matches.To have blokes reply with: “WOW! I’ve just shot a group at 300y, previously I could hardly ever hit the target…”
I used to shoot all day with out any need for cleaning, with bullets .002” under bore size. Plugged base, and a simple card ‘scrapper’ wad is all that one needs, an additional lubed felt and a second card wad was better, but… when in speed matches they can be lost in the rush.
It also really chaffs the ‘other feller’ when one is constantly clanging the 6” disc at 200y with a .577 rifle-musket and open sights.
J
Locally, we used to hold similar matches as the those used in the NSSA; I’d quietly and calmly load and fire and have every target ‘down’ all by myself while the ‘team’ beside me was still getting off shots. I never missed a shot at short range…
(I used to have such a big head)
J

And for my next ‘trick’, do you want to be able to shoot a smooth bore, (just about any cal) out to 300y and keep ALL your shots on target (3’ sq)?This last one REALLY annoys ‘minie ball rifle-musket’ shooters who struggle to hit the 300y target.

Really simple!

Ball sized to suit the bore when double wrapped with cartridge paper, to be a neat fit.
Take your cast ball, drill a 3/16 hole into the ball, take a 8-10” length of string, fold it in half, insert the fold into the drilled hole, peen the holed closed over the string, hold ball by the string tail, drop into prepared paper cartridge, COIL the string tail up under the ball, twist closed the paper.

To load: Card wad, then a lubed felt wad, (way oversize so that it ‘cups’ the following cartridge) insert paper cart to muzzle ball up of course, tear free the paper from the top of the ball, ram home.

The string acts as a near perfect stabilizers for the ball, and it will shoot out to 300y with NO sights and still keep all shots on the 3” target. [I think he means 3 foot target.]

Use the heaviest load you can stand, as velocity/drag is not got.

I shoot 6” groups at 100y with my smooth bores…

The idea is not mine, but was at one time proposed to the British board of ordnance; bullet was rejected as the Army did not and would not consider a ‘compound’ bullet…

Tim

(3 of whatever to follow)

Pat in Virginia
01-13-2012, 04:46 PM
(3 of whatever)

The following are question and answer exchanges where I fed Tim back his own words and asked questions or for clarification on certain points to be sure I understood.

(Tim said) - If you desire to retain a hollow base, plugging is very advantageous. Filling the base not quite full with wax, leaving just enough room to seat a thin card wad into the base and flush with the bottom of the bullet is ideal. Load with an over bore size +.002 dia. card sweeper wad and a dry lubed felt wad. Consistent expansion and shoot all day with out any need for cleaning. Flat base bullets, weight for weight vs hollow base., shoot with a higher velocity.

Questions:

1. seat a thin card wad into the base - My choices when it comes to wad cutter diameter are very limited. Do you have a source for wad cutters made to a custom size such as I would need to follow your suggestion about inserting a card wad into the base of the bullet? The same applies to your comments about the Whitworth. I have a Dixon wad cutter which is oversized for felt wad cutting, but too large for card wad cutting. However, I can make cork wads work with it.

(Tim said) - I use a 7/16” dia wad punch for the base plug card wad. A commonly available size item
BUT for the sweeper wad, an opened out 9/16” punch is required. I opened my punch out with a Dremel tool and small grind stone.

2. Load with an over bore size +.002 dia card sweeper wadand a dry lubed felt wad. Which goes down the bore first the card sweeper wad or the felt wad?

(Tim said) - Card wad, lubed felt, then the last card wad, one wad at a time when you have the time, otherwise all three in one go when pressed, BUT this last way you WILL feel the fouling start to ‘grate’ the bullet after 3-4 shots. When shooting MLAIC style matches, I often used to run out of time by shot 10 or 11, that was when I used to ‘expedite’ the loading sequence.

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Questions:

(Tim said) - Typically I patched/lubed/sized all Musket ball to be with in .002 of bore size, BUT when using a plugged hollow base AND in tapered rifling you can pretty much use any bullet dia that comes to hand.

1. plugged hollow base I assume you do not mean a shallow based bullet in this case. True?

(Tim said) - Shallow hollow base bullets I simply insert 2 x 7/16” card wads to fill the cavity, (a dab of grease to hold each wad into the base, or they will randomly drop out in flight, which will effect the bullets flight…) Otherwise, I was referring to s deep base cavity, as these were the style originally intended for slow twist/progressive depth bores.

2. What do you consider the Pritchett mould to cast: a shallow based bullet or a hollow based bullet?

(Tim said) - The plug in the mould has an ‘improved’ deep plug: Truncated cone shape with parallel sides with an ogived tip, compared to the more commonly encountered fully ogived desiged used by Lyman and Lee, et al.Optimal ‘wedging’ actions is achieved with a truncated cone plug, as per the same design bullet/plug utilized in the MK IX Snider ball

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(Tim said) - If you have the time, load each wad separately and slowly to optimize/maximize the scraping action. I was never a fan of grease cookies, they added to the fouling mass and gummed up the chamber. Dry lubed felt wad, (water-soluble oil 10-1 soaked and the water allowed to evaporate) was better for me.

(Pat asked)

1. water-soluble oil 10-1 Do you have a preferred water soluble oil? Ballistol?

(Tim replied) - Simple machinist (lathe tools etc) water soluable oil, MUCH cheaper than any product sold for firearm application, and every bit as effective

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(Tim said) - As you can see, the mould is fully adjustable for length, so you can make a bullet to suit slow or fast twist barrels
Would it be a good idea to have a plug made for the mould that would cast a flat base?
(Tim replied) - You could indeed, I had intended to do the same, but never got around to it, as the bullet shot with acceptable accuracy ‘as cast’ in my 1-78” rifle-muskets.

Pretty well in ANY rifle-musket, a shallow base bullet is better than a deep hollow base. And Hollow point is FAR superior again;

(Pat asked) If I wanted to hollow point the Pritchett bullet in a lathe using a collet and a standard ? drill bit, would that be a good way to go?

(Tim said) - That was all I did, spin the lathe FAST, (+1000rpm) and cut real slow, as the clearance and rake of a stock drill bit is not optimal for lead. A wee bit of lubricant too, and ALWAYS use a new bit, or one reserved for the job.

(Pat asked)

Tim,

Some other questions that have come to mind with regard to your loading procedures: (I really want to take advantage of what you have spent so much time learning. That's the engineer in me. We don't want to reinvent the wheel when we can borrow it from someone else.

1. .577 scraper wad - I have found I can buy over-powder card wads for ML 24 gage shotguns with a diameter of .589. Do you think that would work? I'll definitely give it a try, but seems about right. I can get felt wads with or without lube at the same size.

(Tim replied) - ou can only but try the oversize card wads… The felt wads should be ok, BUT they must be wool felt, not synthetic; they melt.

2. Need clarification - When you are shooting hollow base mini-balls with you 3 layer wad stack, do you lube the bullet at all or just let the lube wad do the trick?

(Tim replied) - I always lube grease groove Bullets

3. With the Pritchett bullet from the mould you are sending me, do you put any lube on the paper just before shooting?

(Tim replied) - Yes, castor oil worked very well

4. Same bullet - have you ever tried 3/16" cork wads in the base or for the scrapper wad? Think it might be worth a try? I can make my .460 cork wads (I cut myself) easily fit in the base of my mini balls.

(Tim replied) - Cork disintegrates. L

5. Same bullet - instead of beeswax, have you ever tried solidified vegetable oil (we call it Crisco here in the States)? How about peanut butter (just kidding!)?

(Tim replied) - Vegetable shortening is fine. Bees wax was only used ‘back then’ because that was what they had, Castor oil is an excellent lube oil

(4 of whatever to follow)

Pat in Virginia
01-13-2012, 04:49 PM
(4 of 4, I hope)

6. Same subject as above - to get the beeswax in the base easily, what do you do melt it and then very carefully pour it in? Is there a better way?

(Tim replied) - My set up was quaint; dip lube (long nose pliers) the bullet POINT UP first to fill the hollow point with lube, submerge for a slow 4-5 count, (Bullet absorbs the heat and you will get a thin even coating. Set aside and allow the lube/bullet to cool, You will see any noses that have not filled with lube as the cooling lube shrinks back into the hollow (re dip as need be) Then dip lube with BASE UP with a slow count of 3-4. Stand aside point down to allow the wax to set, I then had a wee ‘hollow centre wooden swage/punch’ that was shaped to Just fit the bullet base cavity, (Like a shallow cavity mini Hollow base plug from a Bullet mould, but with the center drilled though, this will allow the wax to’ bleed’ off) I used to push/ press the lubed Bullet INTO a lube sizer , (Bullet dia + .002”) , DON’T push the bullet right through, but with the nose of the projectile stopped from going right through by the bench top, the excess lube from the base of the bullet was extruded out of the base cavity so that there was JUST enough room to sit a 7/16” card wad so that it was flush with the bullet base, once the wax in the base had been ‘swaged’ I would then push the bullet through and out…

7. When you make your lube wads, do you immerse them in the 10:1 solution or put the solution on with an eye-dropper or syringe?

(Tim replied) - Dip, drain and allow to air dry. (old kitchen sieve works fine)




(Pat said)

Tim,

I haven't thought of any more questions to ask - don't faint. I think I understand everything you put in your note.

Thinking about how I can make a hollow bullet base swage punch with a hollow center, I'm thinking I can take an empty brass cartridge case (don't know which one yet but I have a lot of them on hand in many different sizes. (I like BP military cartridge rifles dating back to the early 1860s.) Some of the early ones are very strange looking and have very substantial bases and sides. I just looked at a Smith carbine case from our Civil War period. It should work after I have one of my friends turn it down and shape it properly on his lathe. I'll have to drill a bigger hole in the center than is presently there but that is easy.

Hope you didn't faint when I said I couldn't think of anymore questions because I just did.

1. What diameter hole worked well for you, and

2. What was the depth of the hole before it opened up on the inside of the swage/punch?
I'm assuming that I'll have to clean the hole out between pressings.


(Tim replied)
I used a piece of wood dowel to shape my base/wax ‘swage’ from. Dia same as that of bullet, near enough, then the bottom turned down to form the ‘plug’, to match the ‘top’ (bottom actually) of the hollow base of the bullet. The dowel was drilled up its length, about 3/16 dia. And a cross drilling, same dia, so that the lube was able to bleed out. That was the idea, but in actuality, I had to force the lube out with a small rod, worst in winter if the lube was too hard. ‘Swage’ the bullet base, 4 or 5 in a row, lube would be extruded’ clog the drilling, so I was obliged to push the lube through… Repeat the process….
All done with simple hand pressure.

With the .577 H Point – H Base bullet that I have sent along with the mould (you should see it in 7 days…) you will see the exact size that I made the base swage for the deep base bullets Leave only just enough room to seat a wad a top the lube filled base. With the shallow Hollow base bullets, I simply filled the base with a couple of card wads, a dab of lube to hold each wad in place. Soon found that the shallow Hollow base shot no better or worse than a Flat base.

Even if the twist was real slow, (1-72 ) the full depth Hollow nose was really all that was needed. No Hollow base what so ever. A real pain to drill out as several cuts were needed to avoid the flutes of the drill bit clogging with lead.

Out to 300y I used to shoot a really short squat flat base solid in my 1-78, (barely 1 Cal long) +125gr of GO 3F +1600fps. Psychological warfare load, J mostly used when shooting at the 18” and 24” Gong off hand.

The secondary advantage of drilling the HP in those Big bullets was the number of voids that I ‘discovered’ As cast bullets with 10+gr weight variances that had vanished after drilling the nose…


(That's all folks)

Thank you for your patience and I do hope you find this information of value.

Pat in Virginia
01-13-2012, 05:20 PM
On the LRML mailing list I received the following with regard to the above information:

Ken Watson, UK 1/13/12
577 RCBS mold with own modified base plug - pure lead - sized as it comes
out of the mold (needs thumb pressure to start in barrel) - beeswax &
refined tallow lube - 85 grains Swiss 4 - nothing else, no wads etc. - NRA
800 yard Target shot at 800yds (no rest) score 55 with no misses on the
target (that's averaging nearly 4 per shot at 800yds) - time to prepare
projectile/load minimal - enjoyment level - massive

There are good bullets but no magic bullets. It's only practice that turns
good bullets into magic bullets. This info is for those with out of the box
Enfields shooting out of the box RCBS bullets - don't give up, with practice
that rifle & bullet combo will cut the mustard.
Height of plug is, from memory, 3/16". Skirt is 50% thicker than original. Modified plug has also no sharp corners so the inside of the bullet cavity is smooth, not quite a hemisphere but pretty close to it. Bullet has won national comps at 200/600 and combined 6 and 800 so it works. I personally think if Lyman and RCBS design and sell a bullet that bullet has to be a good starting point. They're top notch firms and don't produce rubbish. Only bad point about the Lyman mold, apart from the shape of the original base plug, is the fact that the plug is seperate from the mold unlike the RCBS which makes it more difficult to use. I have though modified the Lyman base plug and, as well as thickening the bullet skirt, have made the plug hemispherical. That bullet has also been a winner. I only moved on to RCBS as, like a lot of shooters, I am continually searching for the 'magic one'. Anyway that search has now stopped.


Ken Watson