250 Yard Dope Q

[mb3]

I was at the range yesterday shooting my M4 at a steel 8 x 10 plate. The distance was 250 yards, and I was working on seated and kneeling shooting positions. I had a lot of fun shooting (kind of like the pause between firing and hearing the ding), but think the experience would have been more enjoyable if I were shooting my CS Richmond repro. The farthest I have shot this rifle was 120 yards with PRB (47 gr 2f), and I have routinely shot it at 100 yards with 575 Minnies and 60gr 2f. It generally hits about 3 inches high at 100 with that load (pretty much the same with PRB). I will be at the range again sometime next month and I intend to bring my CS Richmond out and give her a try at 250. Any ideas on what would be a good load to start with- in either PRB or Minnie ball?
The rifle is an Armi Sports CS Richmond in .58 cal.

[mb3]

So, I guess with 60 gr of powder and a 400 gr minnie the 58 cal minnie should hit the ground around 225 yards? I read this in a arcticle about long range muzzle loading. Anyone have experience with this?

[marv762]

I shoot a rapine 510 grn bullet out of 4 muskets. 2 enfields and a robinson, and a navy arms. the loads vary from 48 grns to 50 grns ffg goex. they all shoot out to 200 yards in a black powder silouete match that we have almost every month in new jersey. i shoot the same loads for skirmishing also. on the springfields i use a peep sight. each side of the leaf has two holes for competition. 50 yds/ 100 yds/ 150 yds/ 200 yds. you can try to get a new setting by trial and error, or figure the amount of drop at that distance and drill a new hole in your leaf. you can try to center up your front sight at the top of your leaf and see what your spotter says. i do not change loads for distances just the peep location. I have found that the lighter bullets cant get the job done for me as we are shooting a 70 lb steel target that needs to get knocked off the rail. Marv jr

[John Holland]

Why don'tyou just use the original CW load of 60 gr. 2ffg, standard minie ball, and the 300 yard leaf that came with the Richmond? That'll put you in the ball park! At worst, you might have to hold at 6:00!

JDH

[mb3]

Why don'tyou just use the original CW load of 60 gr. 2ffg, standard minie ball, and the 300 yard leaf that came with the Richmond? That'll put you in the ball park! At worst, you might have to hold at 6:00!

JDH
I think this is what I will try. With a little spotter help I should be on.

[John Holland]

Good luck with your experiment, and let us know how it worked for you!
JDH

[mb3]

Ok, went to the range today with seven preloaded shots. Iused 460 gr OS minnies with 50gr FFG 777 and RWS 4 winged musket caps. Firstshot- no idea where it went. Second shot hit the dirt low to the right in frontof the target (8x10 steel plate). It didnot take too long to notice a tree limb hanging low, through the minnies flightpath. So I moved to my left on an adjacent steel plate- next shot, ding. I managedto get 3 out of 7 hits. My other two misses were one slightly left and oneslightly right of the plate. I have to do something about this trigger pull.Absent the first two shots possibly hitting the tree limb, the other two misseswere near hits. Had this been a slightly larger target I believe they alsowould have been on. I used the 300 yardleaf and aimed center mass.

[John Holland]

Glad to hear you had some hits! Too many people underestimate the effectiveness of a Civil War musket.

JDH

[Muley Gil]

"Too many people underestimate the effectiveness of a Civil War musket."



Back in my college days, a few of us were out in the Tuskegee National Forest, west of Auburn, Alabama, plinking. My buddy, an engineering student, had his Winchester Model 70 in .243 along. He was real big into velocity, muzzle engery, etc. I had my Zouave with me. After listening to him prattle on for about 15 minutes, I told him to hold his ears and proceed to blow a sapling in two. When he got his eyeballs back in his sockets, he agreed that there was a place for a 500 grain soft lead bullet, moving at 850 fps. :D

[mb3]

I would consider my CW repro pretty effective. I did hope to do better at 250 yards than I did, but with practice ( and a little trigger work) I hope to shoot better in the future. One interesting thing that happened though; I was able to see the minnie in flight on one of the shots. I was like watching a silver hummingbird fly into the steel plate. Gave me an Idea as to how these thing are lobbed into the target at longer ranges. One of my friends was shooting next to me with his AR15 and it was interesting to hear the difference between a 5.56mm hit and a 58 cal minnie strike. There was no doubt when the minnie hit- thud.

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

We used to knock down steel plates in the shape of rams at 200 yards at a range in northern Californai when I was with the CWSA years ago. Did it with normal target loads--it reauired a higher rear sight--that was all.

[mb3]

Regarding trigger pull. I does anyone have a suggestion as to who I can send my lock to for a crisp and clean 8lb trigger job?

[Dave Fox]

Somewhere on YouTube there's a video of folks shooting a replica .58 at 800 yards, using a higher than GI rear sight and close-to-blowing-out-the-minie's-skirt powder charges.

[Eggman]

For a fun little basement project you may want to work on that trigger pull thing yourself. Pull the lock, depress and hold down the main spring with a Vice Grip, and remove the tumbler. You'll notice that the full cock notch probably has a lip on it, often a rough, ugly lip the mfg. may have left there on purpose so as not to be accused of selling guns with too touchy trigger pulls. You need to "stone this full cock notch with the little tiny Arkansas stone you can buy at many hardware stores. Do not change the angle/geometry of the notch, just smooth down that rough edge. If you do the stoning a little at a time you can work it down to the exact pull you want.
Most gunsmith types will probably reharden the surface after stoning. To do this heat the tumbler at the notch with a propane torch to a red glow, sprinkle lots of Kasonite on the notch while glowing, and then quench in water, while glowing. I have skipped the rehardening when all I've done is taken roughness off the surface.
By the way, one of those magnifying headsets is really useful when doing a job like this. It's not good to guess at how much metal you're removing.

[mb3]

I took the advice of some people who have posted on this forum and did some work to my lock, I followed the posting on the NSSA Northwest Forum. Before I started work I measured my trigger pull with a digital scale for reference, and it measured 11 lbs. I polished everything to a mirror finish. I also reduced the width of my sear spring by about 1/4. I figured that would be agood place to start and I could reduce it more if needed. I put everything back together tested the trigger pull weight at 9 lbs. The trigger is much lighter, has very little creep and feels crisp. I am now able to hold the FSP on a target through the hammer strike. I will test my trigger job on the 250 yardline in a couple of weeks.

[Eggman]

Sounds good so far but that nine pound hammer, er, trigger pull still sounds a little muleish to an N-SSAer.

[mb3]

Sounds good so far but that nine pound hammer, er, trigger pull still sounds a little muleish to an N-SSAer.

I guess I could have taken it down more by reducing the area of the sear spring more, but I got scared. I have another sear spring on order and when it comes in I may reduce the size of my current spring. But I will say after the trigger/ lock job, this trigger in much better. Very smooth and noticably lighter. I have read were the min is 3lbs but that seems to be real light. I have match rifles that weigh in at 3 1/2 to 4 ibs trigger pull. I figure as long as the trigger is smooth with a clean break and somewhere between 6 to 9 lbs I can be happy.

[mb3]

Do any of you have a picture of a lightened sear spring?

[rachbobo]

I have another sear spring on order and when it comes in I may reduce the size of my current spring.


Rather than alter either spring you can try reheating it. Most original springs were heat treated by eye looking at the color of the metal. Getting the spring red hot then quenching to make it brittle is the easy part.
To draw the temper is where it gets tricky. Heating to 810 degrees and then letting it air cool is the way the temper is drawn.
What you can do is put a lead thermometer in your lead pot and turn it on. As it's heating wrap the spring with tin foil to keep the molten lead off of it then drop it in the pot.
I use a ladle or something to hold it under the surface as it is heating. Once the temperature reaches 810 degrees you just take it out and let it air cool and then reinstall it.
The only way you will damage the spring is if you let it get over 810 then if may become weaker.

When I work on an action the first thing I do is remove the trigger spring and check the trigger pull so I have a starting point. Then I pack the sear area with valve grinding compound ( 400 grit ) and work the action to smooth the contact areas.
I broke many a hand made spring trying to use the color chart by eye but since I started using the lead thermometer I have yet to have one fail.

Hope this helps.
Good Luck

Bill Cheek
Cockade Rifles

[le piaf]

There is more 30 years ago , in France a car driver was killed by a CW musket minie , shot at more 500 meters , the minie bullet go through the passenger door , the belly of the driver and stop in the driver's door . the shooter was practising out of a shooting area whithout security , he known the fact only when the police came and said to him that he have killed a man.

[Eggman]

Monsieur le Piaf,
As usual a most interesting post. One wonders how a mini could maintain so much energy after so much distance. But of course it is a large chunk of lead.
I was wondering about your nom de plume, "le Piaf." According to my French dictionary it means sparrow or bird. It also means egghead or a late arriving witness. I was wondering which if any is appropriate. In my case "eggman" goes back to 1949 when my mother sent my cousin Beva and I (we were both 4 years old) out to gather the eggs from the chicken coop. According to Beva, at some point a certain gleam came into my eye and I began to pitch the eggs everywhere throughout the coop, upon which Beva quickly joined in. All the eggs were consumed in this effort. Knowing my lifetime passivity, I think maybe Beva has our roles reversed.
My daughter and son-in-law spent a week in Paris last summer and enjoyed it thoroughly. I the case of my wife and I, we were only able to visit the French pavillion at Disney's Epcot center in Orlando, Florida. Attached is a picture of some of the French cuisine there along with a visiting celebrity.

[le piaf]

le piaf is a nickname used by my friends at the range, it is a very old story with jokes that i am unable to translate , it means "sparrow" . For the power of the minie bullets , be aware that european cars in the seventies were very far of armoured vehicle and make a hole at 500m was not an heavy job for a .58 cal well loaded . In this case ,the shooter was aiming his new gun , and if he lmissed his target , one lost shot killed an innocent.

[mb3]

What would be an equivalent 3f load for 60gr of 2f BP?

[jbarber]

What would be an equivalent 3f load for 60gr of 2f BP?
For over twenty years I used 60 grns. of 2fg benind the Lyman 575263 new style - a very accurate load. Later, I switched to 3fg for all my skirmish firearms. I found that 47 grns. of the 3fg printed on the target identically to the 2fg load. From this example I would deduce that a reduction of 22 -23% from 2fg to 3fg would provide a rough equivalent. Of course, this may apply to only my particular musket. Other results may vary.

[mb3]

For over twenty years I used 60 grns. of 2fg benind the Lyman 575263 new style - a very accurate load. Later, I switched to 3fg for all my skirmish firearms. I found that 47 grns. of the 3fg printed on the target identically to the 2fg load. From this example I would deduce that a reduction of 22 -23% from 2fg to 3fg would provide a rough equivalent. Of course, this may apply to only my particular musket. Other results may vary.

Thank you for the load data. i am headed to the range tomorrow and will give her a try with the 3f. I have the 575-213 OS and the 577-611's. The 575's weighed n around 438 gr and the 577's came in at 510 gr.

[mb3]

Tried the 3f load, and it may need some work. I had much better results with 65gr of 2f and the 577-611 minnie. Tried shooting once again at 250 but we had way too much crosswind. It was blowing directly across the range at 10 to 15 knts. Had some issues with the 3+ ft of windage.