Black Powder Rumors and Facts

[Eggman]

Possibly the greatest hazard to our sport isn't do-gooder liberals, but the misunderstanding of our life-blood, black powder, and the hazards thereof. A recent post in the tech secton about a revolver load using 4f reminds me that maybe some of the practitioners of the black powder sports may be unaware of how dangerous black powder can be. Back in the day a fellow named John Baird spent many sleepless nights trying to warn people about the dangers of misusing the stuff while at the same time publishing a series of articles on catastrophic black powder gun failures in his magazine "The Buckskin Report." I contributed two of these.
Two things EVERY black powder shooter MUST keep in mind at all times: black powder is extremely flamable and can be set off by a source as innocuous as static electricity. Safe handling and storage are essential. Second, black powder burns VERY fast (much quicker than smokeless) and creates a huge pressure curve the first few inches a bullet travels down a barrel. The pressure curve for 4f is extremely high and very very quick. It is a primer, not a propellant.
Remember all black powders, including 1f and 2f, are regressive, NOT progressive. That means as the powder grains burn they produce less and less gas/pressure because the round grains are becoming smaller and smaller as they burn. Commercial smokeless powders sometimes claim to be progressive, but they are lying. The cylindrical shapes most of these powders come in allow a more even burn than the round black grains, but at best they provide a "neutral" burn, i.e., about the same amount of surface area exposed, and therefore about the same amout of gas/pressure produced, throughout the burn.
There are progressive powders made -- for artillery propellant. These are large cylindrical grains (about a half inch long, with one or more perforations throughout each grain lengthwise. As these grains burn they keep exposing more and more surface area to the ignitor thus producing more and more gas/pressure.
Black powder guns can and will blow up. When the guy from Missouri said, "You can fill these guns up with black powder to the end of the barrel and fire them and nothing will happen," he was wrong. Adding more and more powder keeps raising the pressure curve, while the rate of bullet speed increase steadily declines.

[Timmeu]

I am confused about the static electricity issue. I found the following website and am looking for some reactions.

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

I am not expecting to allow my powder to be exposed to static but am very courious about why all the widely varying thoughts and opinions.



A Courious Yankee......

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

Marty, I would agree that static electricity PROBABLY won't set off black powder. HOWEVER we are all guilty of mishandleing black powder sooner or later and a stern reminder is a very good thing.

[Timmeu]

Hi Greg

I am not trying to create dangerous situations. I am as a college trained teacher concerned that at times old wives tales and urban legends make it into the world of fact. I have continued to look at several internet sites on this issue via a Google search and see statements that vary a great deal. In most cases documentation of fact would really be helpful in our handling of the Powder, caps and lead that we all use to take part the BP hobby and just isn't there.

I am curious to find out what research evidence is published about this issue and getting the correct data. Any one who wants to help out sure can.


I am still a curious Yankee

[Eggman]

I guess I was influenced by a fellow worker who at one time worked in the Rock Island armory. He said they would fill ordnance there -- nearly all artillery and other high explosive rounds in those days (50s,60s) used a black powder booster. He said black powder dust would accumulate in the rafters of the plant, and periodically it would "flash," or ignite, from static electricity, and scare the h____ out of everybody.
And of course there is a long litany of ammunition storage facilities detonating for seemingly no reason at all.
The cumulative affect is some of us get a little paranoid.

[Eggman]

I didn't comment on the experiments - most interesting. However------
the 20mm rounds fired from the Vulcan cannon are electrically primed.
Birds sitting on high power lines suffer no more ill affects than your powder granules, except when-- something about a proper ground.
Maybe we have an explanation now why Jaguars and Austin Healeys never seem to want to run.

[Edwin Flint]

This much I know: Dust does not need to be BP to be explosive. Ask anyone that has seen a silo explode, or the aftermath, due to grain dust. I have never understood precisely why this happens but something to do with the dust to air mixture as I understand it. Still I intend to be very careful with avoiding static discharge around BP.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

A number of years ago I visited the Citadel at Halifax Nova Scotia, a stone fort built by the British to protect the harbor. While there they took us into the magazine. In the magazine there were racks that they stored the kegs of power on. The guide said that they would every so often take the kegs off the rack and hand role them from one end of the magazine to the other to keep the power from getting hard and caking up. The guide also said that the men who did this wore clothing made out of flannel to prevent statci buld up and blowing up the magazine. So they were concerned about statci electricty and black power back then.

[Eggman]

As a line of research I would suggest Marty search through the archives of Pete Jorgensen's "The Artilleryman" magazine. Here he will find a number of interesting ways folks have found to use black powder to injure themselves. I understand this still may not satisfy Marty's college trained scientific eye. In that case he may want to join the reeactor from Georgia I met who was shooting 170 grains of 2f behind a large wad of Georgia sod to get a "really good bang," and begin scrapping the large "DANGER, EXPLOSIVE," and "DANGER, HIGHLY FLAMMABLE AND HIGHLY EXPLOSIVE" warnings from all their BP cans.

[Timmeu]

I am in now way trying to advocate doing dangerous things to anyone. I agree with eggman that many unfortunates in the blackpowder do many things that are potentially dangerous. What I would like to know is why we as a group make statements that make light of the Georgia or report hearsay stories as facts and totally ignore acurate information. I have had my share of near accidents over 45 years of shooting.

I still will be researching this issue and will hope to make available some actual fact. I am becoming more and more concerned with the many varying concepts and thoughts that folks put out. Each of use should be sure of what we say as once it appears here in the electronic world it can come back to haunt each of us.

Still a curious Yankee.

[ThomasKavanagh]

I think I posted a link to that static spark video some time ago, and got shot down.

That said, Yes, the folks back during (and before, and after) the Recent Unpleasantness were aware of the dangers of sparks in and around their powder. That is why limber chests, powder magazines in forts, and other places where large amounts of powder were stored, used copper rather than iron nails, and iron-nailed/shod shoes were removed before entry into such places.

Of course, the sparks produced from iron-on-iron are not static electricity, but are little pieces of hot iron (like a flintlock).

tk
2883v
Wheat's Tigers

[Eggman]

One last comment and I promise I'll shut up. A person present when an event occurs is called an eyewitness - and when he reports on what he saw it's called eyewitness testimony -- not "hearsay." According to your standard all the events of the Civil War are suspect because all the information we have on it is "hearsay."
I did not make fun of Georgia - all my family (self and wife excepted at present) live in Georgia. I did not make fun of him - I reported what I SAW him do and say. His regard for BP safety was nil.
Maybe my fear of static electricity is overblown. That I am wary of it and reported a case where it casued BP to light up -- please compare this internet reporting that the whole world might see, to the report you sited which attempted to build a case that there is really nothing to fear. Which might possibly place someone in harm's way.
Please reread your last paragraph.

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Eggman:

Being a native Georgian, having been born in Georgia and having all my ancestors who arrived in Georgia in the 1790's and early 1800's I just want you to know how much pride I take in the STUPIDITY of our Native Rednecks when it comes to maiming and killing themselves. Many have said those immortal last words: "HEY Y'ALL, Watch This!!"

**************

Several years ago I was observing a Civil War Re-enactment at the Old Clinton Historic Site. During the re-enactment one of the full scale cannon had a crew that fired ONE ROUND EVERY 48 SECONDS for about 25 rounds! I know, because I timed it on my watch. Amazingly, the cannon didn't "Cook Off" but I did move my family members out of Harm's Way just in case, so they wouldn't get struck by a flying rammer or flying body parts from a gunner If the cannon had "Cooked Off."

**************
Then there was a case reported in Georgia Outdoor News a couple of years back. A Redneck decided to buy a muzzleloader and take part in the state's Muzzleloading Deer Hunt. Because the barrel of the muzzleloader was stamped "Black Powder Only" he opened several cans of smokeless powder at a gun shop, until he found one can of smokeless that had black colored powder in it!

The he purchased that can of smokeless powder and carried it home. He then decided to "Sight In" his muzzleloader. He hung a target in his back yard, loaded his gun with the "black colored" smokeless powder and using the front hood of his pick-up truck as a bench, he fired a shot. Part of the breechplug hit him in the head and some shrapnel took out an eye. A Cousin of his standing nearby watching the shooter, was killed when a good size piece of shrapnel from the breech hit him in the head, penetrated his brain and killed him.

**************
A few years ago, a redneck shot a deer on the opening day of deer season muzzleloading deer season. He put the dead deer on his back, and by holding the front legs of the deer to keep it on his back, with the deer's head leaning over his left shoulder he attempted to walk out of the woods. He had only gone a couple of hundred yards when KER...BOOOOOOOMMMMM! The fella that fired that shot got a deer & a Redneck!

Snif...Snif...Snif...Excuse me, my eyes are tearing up.

So, Eggman we are very proud of our Rednecks here in Georgia and the stupid things they do. Last time I heard anything, the Rednecks over in Alabama were jealous and were plotting on doing more stupid things so they could catch up with us!

[Timmeu]

Here is the webpage I put on here before. I will be back in touch when I find more out about this topic.

Thanks Eggman for interesting reading. I have Georgia relatives in the 15th Infantry. Hard fighters and tough men.

Still a curious Yankee.

[Timmeu]

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...ks/sparks.html (http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html)

I missed this in the previous message.