Question for John Holland

[efritz]

Dear John,

No, this is not a I'm leaving letter.

John,
Are you still pursuing single shot pistol individual competition? Santa was nice and may have made it possible for me to reconoiter the country side for an Aston or whatever is being proposed as approved toys.

This thread may drum up some support for it. I think I found just about enough time in a Nat's weekend to participate in such an event. In doing a small feasiblity study it seems to be a good idea. No fuss, no muss. No added time to the schedule, a money maker,(just some medals), sell and score targets. Nothing else to it.

Regards
Eric Fritz
149th PVI

[rachbobo]

I asked about this a while back and let it drop when there was little reply to it. I figured 25 yards as in revolver competition. Maybe slightly larger targets than clay birds because they are smoothbore, or at least the ones I have are.
It could be run the same as any single shot event.
I have an 1842 IN Johnson ( dated 1853 ) 54 cal percussion I could use.
If there isn't enough time to fit them in the Nationals they could be shot in lesser attended skirmishes . And if interest grows enough it can be played by ear in the future.

Bill Cheek
Cockade Rifles

[gmkmd]

Count me in. Always looking for an excuse to buy another gun.

[efritz]

Gents,

Obviously any support for single shot pistol to be approved by the BOD would have to come from team Cmdrs. and then through the regions. That being said, I think the thinking (is that a Yogism?), is just individuals. It would take 6 hours for team events so let's not even go there. Yes on the 25y. I don't know if they could be accurate at 50y but they said that about smoothbores too. Now they want to add a target and make it smaller. So maybe 50y with a single shot pistol wouldn't be hard. So make some labels, sell more targets (make money) and give out a proportional amount of medals as they do for all other disciplines, and stat scores some more targets. It won't add any time to the schedule. Am I missing anything?

John and his volunteers can come up with an approved list. I do think they made some rifled single shots but that's why I'm not one of Johns' volunteers, I'm not sure. If they did make both then treat it like muskets and smoothbores.

The band is on the wagon. Anybody want to get on?

[efritz]

BTT. Would stll like to hear from John. Sent a PM. No reply. Maybe didn't go through.

[jerry ashley]

Erick got myself a sling shot that shots one shot at a time, will this work for this match?

[efritz]

Jerry,

How many gns. of black powder does yours use?

[jerry ashley]

Eric- only 8grs, thats less than Alvins, no recoil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[John Holland]

Eric -

I've been mulling this over for a while. I don't see any problem with a new individual match. It wouldn't be overwhelming for the stat staff to score a few more targets. I spoke with the National Stat Officer about it in 2010, and he said he didn't foresee any issues with adding the match...IF the Board wanted to do so.

I would say make it a 25 yard match only and use the 25 yard target, and not to be added to any agg's., three medals to start with, and see if there is any growth. The first year (two Nationals) could be done to gauge the interest level, or to hi-lite any issues. The pistol would be an American military model, flint or percussion, both of which would pre-date the Civil War. Same rules for smoothbore musket would apply, you can't modify the sights, no patching other than a ball wrapped in tin foil. The use of a swivel ram rod would also be disallowed under pre-existing skirmish rules. Flint lock loading rules to apply for any flint lock pistols.

Of course any proposal like this has to be presented to the Board in a proper format. I would suggest working through the chain of command, your Unit Commander, your Region Commander, the National Statistics Officer, and the Rules Committee for rules changes and proper wordsmithing of the proposal. The Small Arms Committee would be made available to all parties for any questions on arms. I do not see any need to issue an Individual Approval for the U.S. Single Shot Pistols. There aren't that many Models to choose from, and the 1842 Aston will probably be the pistol of choice.

I am sorry, but I do not have the luxury of any spare time at this point in my life to champion yet another project.

Good Luck to those interested in this endeavor. You all know the course of action, so take it away!

JDH

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

Eric, My email address is josephplakis@comcast.net I can help walk you through the process to get something submitted for the next BOD meeting. I do not think we could get it in for the January meeting, and I don't think we would want to rush it anyway, need to have all of the "I's" dotted and "t's" crossed. I have no problem submitting it at your request.

It is as simple as writing up a proposal and making sure all of the bases are covered.

Plus it might give me another type of pistol that I cannot hit a barn with, from inside :eek:

[John Holland]

Joe, thank you for your willingness to work with your constituants to make the N-SSA all it can be!

Just a note for those who may be interested in buying a M-1842 Aston Pistol, before purchasing said arm remove the lock and take a look at the internal lock parts. For some reason the internals in the M-1842 Aston Pistols seem to be prone to breakage. They seem to be too brittle, so I suggest you inspect the locks before laying your money down, especially at gun show! The last four I looked at had broken internals. They cocked and held OK, but the bridals were broken on every one of them.

JDH

[Don Branch 12592]

Assuming the use of only one barrell, would the Howdah pistol be acceptable in the single shot pistol? Or the Pendersoli screw barrell pistol in 44?

[John Holland]

Don -

You missed the part where it is stated the only pistols allowed would be U.S. Military Models. But, thanks for asking anyway. This is how a project gets developed.

JDH

[Edwin Flint]

Why not just approve them to be used in regular individuals?

[John Holland]

Very simply, the regular individual matches are "Revolver Matches", not "Pistol Matches".

JDH

[Don Branch 12592]

Don -

You missed the part where it is stated the only pistols allowed would be U.S. Military Models. But, thanks for asking anyway. This is how a project gets developed.

JDH

Thank you John. I know U.S. Military models were certainly carried during the CW, but I didn't know they were actually "military issue". My thinking was if an individual carried a non issued Model, there would have also been Howdahs and "boot" pistols carried too... Why not ad them to the competition as well?

[Blair]

One must draw a line, or some line somewhere.
I personally think stating "U S Military model single shot firearms", actually spells out where that line is pretty well. In my opinion.
But, with this (potentially) being a new discipline...who knows how it may develop?

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Don
Read the book Diary of a Dead Man. In it the writer tell how the family of some of the soldiers sent them all kinds of revolver, pistols and knives. He tell of one soldiers family even sending him a bullet proof vest made out of steel. Sounds like something that Clint Eastwood's man with no name would use.

[Edwin Flint]

Why not amend Revolver to Military pistol Match?

[Mike McDaniel]

Why not amend Revolver to Military pistol Match?
Because the single-shot military pistols aren't competitive against a good revolver. It would be like pitting a smoothbore musket against a rifle-musket.

[John Holland]

Just a few things here, Ed, do you really want to compete in Individuals with a smoothbored pistol against a rifled revolver? Really? I'll even take Mike's analogy a bit farther, it would sort of be like using a smoothbore musket against a revolving rifle!

You can't have them classed together because the Revolvers have a Team Match....and you're not going to have a Single Shot Pistol Team Match. You would need like what....2 + hours for a Single Shot Pistol Team Match?

East is East and West is West, and never shall the Twain shall meet.

OK, maybe I borrowed that from Kipling....

Keep it up, boys, you're doin' just fine!

JDH

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

I think I might fair just as well shooting at an individual with a 1855 Pistol/Carbine, obviously with no shoulder stock, then I would with any of the three pistols that I own .

[efritz]

Joe,

I'd like to take you up on your offer to guide me through the steps to bring it before the BOD.

Regards
Eric

[John Holland]

Nope, no 1855 Pistol....its rifled. We're going for a smoothbore single shot pistol match.

John

[Mike McDaniel]

You can't have them classed together because the Revolvers have a Team Match....and you're not going to have a Single Shot Pistol Team Match. You would need like what....2 + hours for a Single Shot Pistol Team Match?

JDH
Why don't we just have a saber match? :D

[Blair]

"Bad form" guys!
Even with the "smily" faces attached.

[Southron Sr.]

Based on my understanding, shooting an "Approved" Replica of the U.S. Model 1855 Pistol/Carbine without the stock attached would be legal in the Pistol Individual Matches. With the stock attached, it could be shot in the Carbine Individuals. Right?

IF the N-SSA ever allows horses, then the "Saber Matches" could be accommodated by a version of "Riding to the Rings" and other "Cavalry Games" that were played by Cavalrymen in the 19th Century. The mounted cowboy action shooters have already blazed the way on mounted shooting competition.

[John Holland]

Brannen....Smoothbore Pistol....not the rifled Model 1855 Pistol....

JDH

[Fauch125]

I know the last post was 6 weeks ago, but I was wondering if any headway had been made? An opportunity for a model 1842 horse pistol has come up recently, and I'd be even more enthusiastic if there's a chance I could shoot it in competition some day. At any rate, include me on the bandwagon, groundswell of support, or whatever you want to call it.
Jon Faucher

[Fauch125]

wierd, duplicate post

[Muley Gil]

I'd like to shoot this 'un :D

http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/showthread.php?4947-1861-Enfield-Horse-Pistol

[efritz]

Jon,

I guess you can say progress is being made. I am in the process of forming all the rules and regs and submitting it to my team. Then hopefully on to the region and then the BOD. But this will take time. I don't know when the next MA regional meeting is, porbably in April. It won't make the BOD probably until the August board meeting if all else is successful. If there's questions or clarifications it'll have to be addressed at the Jan. 2013 BOD meeting. So with all that, It more than likely won't happen until the May Nat's 2013.

Wish me luck.

Eirc Fritz
149th PVI

[Fauch125]

Thank you for your effort, and good luck.
Jon

[efritz]

Well it appears that it was time well spent. The BOD has approved the single shot smoothbore pistol individuals only competition effective as a National competition May 2014. All please read and understand its rules and regs when published. I reiterate. This is smoothbore pistol, single shot, individuals only competition. Examples of just some of the firearms allowed are the Aston, Johnson/waters, Simeon North, and others. If you have a Flaydermans catalog, you can peruse through it to see some of the others that meet the criteria of approved firearms. Most will be very very expensive but there's a load of Astons, Waters, Johnsons, Norths out there reasonably priced. Hopefully repros will be manufactured sometime in the future. To my knowledge, they are not at this time.

The band is playing and I'm on the wagon.

I do have one question. Is it in effect now? Can I shoot my single shot pistol at an upcoming regional skirmish? Oops, that's two questions.

Regards to all

Eric Fritz
149th PVI

[John Robey]

Eric,

The new rules allowing the SS pistol individual matches come into effect March 1, 2014. Nothing until then.

JR

[efritz]

Thanks John,

Regards
Eric