.690 Buck and Ball rounds

[Cousin Joseph]

Dear All,

I am new to the Forum and I am trying to verify some info on .690 Buck and Ball rounds.

As a Civil War reenactor here in Southern California we have limited opportunities to participate in live fire events.
Our organization's big one takes place in January out inthe desert by El Centro.
I recently purchased an Armisport .690 Springfield smoothbore to more accurately portray a member of the unit we represent, 69th NY Co. C.,
As such I would like to make up some "authentic" buck and ball rounds to take out to the desert in January.
I am not looking so much for accuracy on the range as I am the "authentic" shooting experience.

The muzzle bore on my .690 is actually only .680 which is a little odd for an Armisport, as they tend to run a little big, (or so I have been told).

Some sources I have read indicate that the actual size ball(s) used in buck and ball rounds in the CW in the .690 Springfield smoothbore was .650 ball and three .31 buck shot.
These sources also stated that the powder load was said to be 110 grs.
Although I doubt that the powder used in the CW was as fine as GOEX fffg, which is what I use.

Track of the Wolf sells round ball in .648 and .662, cal and also shot in .310 and .311 cal, which is about as close as you can get for "authentic" caliber.

My question is, does any of the members out there fire this type of weapon on a regular basis and if so, what is the best round and load to most acurately duplicate the rounds used in the Civil War.

I thank you for your time and consideration.

Your Obedient Servant

Cousin Joseph

[Eggman]

Although nearly all of our smoothbore shooters wanted to use buck & ball, Phil Spaugy wouldn't let them. I know of no one who shoots the buck & ball load which I believe includes most if not all of our reenactor friends. PLEASE, in your experiments, do not use more than 50 grains of ffg, for the sake of the integrity of your own head, and the noggins of others nearby. Pushing that much lead forward will create some large pressures, and adding more powder will likely not give you any discernable increase in accuracy.

[Cousin Joseph]

Eggman,

Thank you for the info.
I will certainly go a little light on the powder in veiw of your warning.
Was the reason behind Mr. Spaugy's restriction purely for safety (which is enough of a reason for anyone) or is there some local ordanance that prohibits the use of buck and ball?

CJ

[Blair]

Cousin,

Just a suggestion on my part,
try the smaller ball dia. of .648 with three buckshot in and around the .280 size. This will make reloading quickly much easier
Keep in mind this is a multi projectile round. They need to be in a paper cartridge (which will increase the overall dia.), tied together to simplify loading process.
Both these aspects are illegal within N-SSA competition, if I understand the rules.
Blair

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

Although nearly all of our smoothbore shooters wanted to use buck & ball, Phil Spaugy wouldn't let them. I know of no one who shoots the buck & ball load which I believe includes most if not all of our reenactor friends. PLEASE, in your experiments, do not use more than 50 grains of ffg, for the sake of the integrity of your own head, and the noggins of others nearby. Pushing that much lead forward will create some large pressures, and adding more powder will likely not give you any discernable increase in accuracy.


Boy that is news to me! Please refresh my poor memory about my not "letting" our smoothie shooters shoot Buck and Ball?

Specifics please !!!

[Eggman]

I quail at stepping into the smoothbore camp (myself having much better sense then to fool with the things), but a quick answer is the multi-shot rounds would convert the matches from the marksmanship type the N-SSA emphasizes, to the hail of bullets chaos type, the latter much more like a Civil War (or for that matter modern day) battle. There are no ordinances that prohibit multi-shot rounds as such, just N-SSA rules.

[Eggman]

Well, anyway, somebody wouldn't let them.

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

Well, anyway, somebody wouldn't let them.

That's just a great answer. First you name me, then its that strange, mysterious personage named "SOMEBODY" !!!

Please get your facts and or story straight before you post. And if it concerns me, and you did not hear or read it from me, please give me the common courtesy of checking with me first.

[Cousin Joseph]

I quail at stepping into the smoothbore camp (myself having much better sense then to fool with the things), but a quick answer is the multi-shot rounds would convert the matches from the marksmanship type the N-SSA emphasizes, to the hail of bullets chaos type, the latter much more like a Civil War (or for that matter modern day) battle. There are no ordinances that prohibit multi-shot rounds as such, just N-SSA rules.

Eggman,

I would not be shooting in competition with the buck and ball rounds.
The reason for using them would be to try to experience the actual "feel" of shooting as authentic a round as possible and maybe testing the effectiveness of the round at varying distances.

The July 2011 edition of the American Rifleman reported on tests using buck and ball in .690 cal smoothbores and I would like verify the results for myself.

CJ

[Eggman]

No offense intended Phil. It was based on my understanding that you were the driving force for the repeater and smoothbore matches as I recalled from your campaign resume. Just my way of saying things.

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Cousin Joseph

While the N-SSA does have Smoothbore Matches, both Individual and Team Rapid Fire Matches, projectiles are limited to a single round ball by N-SSA rules.

I was at a Skirmish over a decade ago in Mississippi and the host team actually passed out Buck & Ball loads for a special Smoothbore Event. Those B&B rounds were devastating to the targets. One Skirmisher was even shooting an original U.S. M1816 flintlock musket. I actually wish that the N-SSA host teams would occasionally sponsor special B&B Events at Skirmishes. The "Fun factor" would definitely go up!

The "Official" Confederate powder charge for their Buck & Ball rounds was 110 Grains of "Musket" [FFg] powder. That being said, I would approach that load very cautiously if I were working up a B&B load.

Good Luck

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Cousin Joseph:

Get hold of some Sheetrock, i.e., "Wallboard" from your local building supply store. Using a T Square and Box Cutter razor knife, cut the Sheetrock into 1' X 1' Squares and hang two "Diamond Style" in a target frame at 25 Yards. You can punch holes to run the wire thru using a regular nail. [Hint: Sometimes building supply stores or contractors will actually give you their broken or cut up pieces of Sheetrock for free!]

When hit with a B&B load, the Sheetrock will give off puffs of white smoke. Hang two Sheetrock Diamonds each in two separate target frames. Get a couple of 3 man Smooth Bore teams together for a Volley Fire (say 5 B&B rounds) Event. Then count holes in the Sheetrock diamonds to determine which team won!

[Cousin Joseph]

Dear Cousin Joseph:

Get hold of some Sheetrock, i.e., "Wallboard" from your local building supply store. Using a T Square and Box Cutter razor knife, cut the Sheetrock into 1' X 1' Squares and hang two "Diamond Style" in a target frame at 25 Yards. You can punch holes to run the wire thru using a regular nail. [Hint: Sometimes building supply stores or contractors will actually give you their broken or cut up pieces of Sheetrock for free!]

When hit with a B&B load, the Sheetrock will give off puffs of white smoke. Hang two Sheetrock Diamonds each in two separate target frames. Get a couple of 3 man Smooth Bore teams together for a Volley Fire (say 5 B&B rounds) Event. Then count holes in the Sheetrock diamonds to determine which team won!

Southron Sr.

That is a good idea. Thinking about the sheetrock I may expand on it a little.
I am thinking of making about a dozen, full size "soldier" siloettes and spacing them in groups of three, shoulder to shoulder, at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yds and have a three man "squad" volley fire at each distance to see what kind of damage would have been done in actual battle.

A round ball hit to a vital area would definately be a kill but even the .31 shot could, in the right area, could take a man out of the battle.

I am looking forward to getting this test underway.

CJ

[John Holland]

CJ -

Remember, you don't really want to kill all of the enemy, you want a lot of them to be wounded casualties. Why, you may ask? Because it took something like six extra people to provide care for each one of the wounded soldiers in the Civil War. That kept a lot of people from being involved in combat with your own troops. Additionally, the added cost of caring for wounded soldiers was, and still is, astronomical.

JDH

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Jphn, Six sounds a little high. But a wound would take that man off the firing line, often along with one or two others to assist him to the rear. (altho' soldiers were often admonished NOT to help wounded soldiers, but to stay on the line and keep firing!)

[John Holland]

Ken -

I'm not talking about caring for the wounded while still on the field of battle, but rather after the carnage. Start adding up all the care providers required such as Doctors, Nurses, Aides, Assistants, Wagon Drivers, Medical Suppliers, Transport Corps personell to move all the medical goods, food, clothing, people to clean the hospitals, storage for all the hospital goods, guards for the material, etc. There is a whole trickle down effect just to care for one person. And that's why it was better to leave your enemy with 10,000 wounded to care for rather than 10,000 dead to bury once. The wounded had to be cared for 24 hours a day for months, if not years. The burden of care for the wounded was crushing for your enemy in both added personell and monetary costs.

JDH

[Edwin Flint]

As SD for that Aberdeen Skirmish where we hosted a special event B & B pigeon board, I remember it a little different than Southeron. The BB put numerous holes in the PB but broke few pigeons. Folks just shot their standard loads. Most loads then were from 60 to 120 grains of powder, both ffg and fffg. My impression was while on a skirmish line, it would have wounded many, to hit a particular target, it was not very effective.

The most exciting thing was the gentleman with the flintlock caught his hat on Fire!:eek::eek:

[William H. Shuey]

A couple of years ago the First Maine was invegled into giving a demonstration of smooth bore with buck and ball loads for the "Friends of the Park" organization at Gettysburg. The load used was a .675 Round ball and three 31 caliber round ball in a paper cartridge driven by 60 grains of 2F.
It made quite a mess of a couple of man sized silhouettes cut from wall board.

Bill Shuey

(now if I could just figure out how to keep that smoothbore from fouling up I would be in good shape).

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Ed:

I guess my memory of that Aberdeen Skirmish is fading a bit....Maybe I should have said "The B & B rounds were devastating to the backer board."

Gentleman that caught his hat on fire with the flintlock.....doesn't that occur on a regular basis with flintlocks? I always understood the old expression: "I fired my cap!" originated with flintlock shooters rather than percussion shooters.

Eh...Eh...Eh...