Small Arms Approval List confusion.

[EBrown]

Hello,
I am new to the N-SSA Forum and have been trying to understand approval list for revolvers. This thread is in no way meant to criticize, far from it as I'm just trying to figure it out.
I'll use the Remington New Model 1858 Army .44 cal as an example. In that section under "Makers" it shows Navy Arms(Uberti and Pietta. includes stainless model) - Navy Arms is the importer or distributor - not the maker correct? So its a Navy Arms model which must be manufactured by Uberti or Pietta? Now if that is correct, why is a "Pietta or Uberti" Rem NM 1858 Army not listed and where it does show an Uberti it shows ("Taylor's & Co.) next to it - does that mean you can only use that Uberti model IF its sold/imported by Taylor's & Co.?

Also, it does list an F.LLI Pietta("Shooters Model", Dixie Gun Works). With the exception of performance that is built into the Shooters Model isn't it the same dimensionally and appearance-wise of the Pietta 1858 NMA? Also why are some listed as F.LLI Pietta and some simply as Pietta? The stainless model being accepted - why is that accepted? - is it because it can suggest a extremely worn blued model? Is authentic in design or appearance mandatory?

There are other examples also but I'm asking so many questions that I sound like a 10 year old instead of the 55 year old that I am!

I apologize if my questions are confusing or if I'm not relaying what I'm really trying to say. Again, I'm not criticizing - only trying to understand. Believe me, I have nothing but admiration and envy for Skirmishers. Hope someone can decipher my questions or exactly what it is that's confusing me.
Thank you,
Eddie

[Eggman]

Eddie -- keep 'em coming and don't apologize. The guy that monitors this site (John Holland) is also the guru for all firearm approvals -- has been for many years.

[John Holland]

HelloMr. Brown -

Your first paragraph may be partially answered on the second page of theApproved Arms List titled "Important Notices", where it states:

(4) Arms listed by Manufacturer are allowed for use in the N-SSA’scompetitive

matchesregardless of who the Importer or Vendor may be. When an Importer, or

Vendor,name is shown it is only as a courtesy indicating that they submitted the

armfor Production Approval. For example, a reproduction 1860 Henry Rifle

madeby Uberti is allowed, regardless of the Importer’s name on the barrel.

In the same paragraph you asked "...why is a "Pietta or Uberti"Rem NM 1858 Army not listed...", actually it is:

Remington New Model 1858 Army (.44 cal)

5)Navy Arms (Uberti and Pietta, includes stainless model)

Theuse of Stainless Steel revolvers was accepted by the N-SSA long before I hadanything to do with the Small Arms side of things. The reason is two-fold. Oneis the ease of cleaning a SS revolver. The other is the N-SSA is not finishconscious. We do not require arms that were originally issued bright, blued, orbrowned to be in their original finishes. Therefore a bright, stainless steelrevolver is of no consequence to the N-SSA.

The "Shooters Model" has a separate listing because it is a differentversion than one assembled and shipped right off a production line.

Yes, the listings that show Importers first should be reversed to show theactual maker first, when that informationis available.Much of the information used is 50+ years old and the Small Arms Archives donot reflect who the actual Manufacturer was, only the Importer. At times we areable to figure out who the actual Manufacturers were, and when we do theinformation is added. The Approved Arms List has been on the website forseveral years and gets updated with new information at least twice a year. Astime permits, the old listings that need to be made more "userfriendly", for the general public who are not, or have not, been membersof the N-SSA, will get revamped. The original posting was from type writtensheets which presented much of the information in an archaic format. Sometimesour own familiarity with knowing what something really means causes us toforget that not everyone has the years of experience with the previous formatsthat many of us do.



Thankyou for bringing yet another necessary correction to our attention!

I hope I have satisfactorily answered your questions, and if I have missedsomething, just restate it!

John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee
N-SSA

[EBrown]

John Holland,
Thank you very much for the detailed and well-explained reply. And "yes" you answered my questions satisfactorily...and then some. In the Important Notices Section maybe I should have given more notice to the "READ CAREFULLY!" ha!
I knew my failure to understand the list was due to my own inexperience. I only compete against myself but I really only want to shoot with N/SSA approved revolvers. I know that sounds silly but it is important to me. Maybe one of these days I will make my way East and get to participate with you guys...
...at least one time!

Thank you again John,

Eddie

[Eggman]

I might add Eddie that us "nabobs" usually bypass the whole process by looking for the "N-SSA approved" notice posted along with the appropriate for-sale firearms. When the odd or custom firearm shows up we seek out John or some other member of the Small Arms Committee. What's unique about the N-SSA is you'll not only get good advice on which arms to shoot, but how to effectively shoot them.

[EBrown]

Thanks Eggman,
I see what your meaning as I was just looking at a Dixie Gun Works sale paper and sure enough they have posted the "N-SSA Approved" next to certain cap and ball revolvers. Also, I agree in regards to the knowledge and advice that a non-active member can receive from N-SSA members. I'm thankful for that!

I also wanted to say that after re-reading my initial post it sounds like I'm in disagreement that the stainless-steel revolvers are approved - that was definitely not my intent as I was just asking about it out of curiosity.

I will be more of a reader than a poster on the N-SSA so hopefully my knowledge will improve. I do enjoy reading all that you Skirmishers have to say.
Thanks for both of your post's Eggman.

Eddie

[Eggman]

Eddie -- If you get a notion be sure to check out some of the N-SSA units in your area. You'll enjoy shooting like never before if you join our ranks.

[Muley Gil]

"Maybe one of these days I will make my way East and get to participate with you guys...
...at least one time!"

There is a LOT of N-SSA shooting going on in the Midwest. Go here:

http://www.n-ssa.org/regions.html

Of course, you could join MY team. Our members are located from New England all the way to Florida.

You can contact me at ass0mine1@yahoo.com

[EBrown]

Eggman and Muley Gil,
Thank you both for the heads-up on N-SSA action in Indiana. I obviously have much to learn and research. Though I have known of Civil War reenactments in Indiana, I did not know N-SSA competition shooting was in the state. Financially I could not do much travel - so I guess I figured if I could($$) participate in even one event someday it would be at Ft.Shenandoah! Obviously I'm looking at this all wrong as I realize I cant "just show up" and play. I dont know but maybe thats why I haven't commited to any of the Civil War Reenactments in Indiana as I didn't want to be the guy who only shows up once in awhile(even if it is due to lack of funds) as thats not fair to others. I realize many struggle with the cost and still participate....I know its not easy for anyone. I would like to participate in N-SSA competitive shooting if there is any way I could do it.

Thank you both for offering options for me and Muley thank you for the link and contact option.
Because of people like you guys - is why I know I would enjoy being involved!

Eddie

[John Holland]

Mr. Brown -

If you would like to contact me off-line you may email me direct, jh44ny (at) verizon.net , I think I may be able to connect you with someone in Indiana who could help you along the way.

Sincerely,
John Holland

[LawnJockey]

I regards to stainless steel wouldn't it be better to require owners of such abominations to Tennessee blue them (BBQ black spray paint)?

[Maillemaker]

On a related note, I was surprised that the Pietta 1860 Army is not approved, whilst the Uberti 1860 Army is.

Steve

[John Holland]

Very simply, the Colt 1860 Army manufactured by Pietta has never been submitted to the SAC to be reviewed for a possible Production Approval.

John Holland
Chairman, N-SSA Small Arms Committee

[marv762]

just going to throw this out into the mix and see what happens. I purchased a colt navy with the brass frame two years ago from dixie. it was not marked unaproved when the purchase was made. this year it is now marked as such. my question is this, if the nssa is not concerened about a stainless steel finish that did not exist in the war then why is the brass frame not allowed. the gun is the same dimensions as an original steel frame that is approved. the term fantisy gun was used to describe the colt that i purchased. i was told you can't use it as it did not exist. ( stainless steel) where was this issued in the war? please try to make sense of this as i have a good shooter that can't be used now. Marv

[John Holland]

Marv -

Your Competitor Number of 11604 indicates that you had been a member of the N-SSA for some 5 years or so before you purchased the unapproved revolver, so you knew the ropes. The revolver in question wasn't on the N-SSA's Approved Arms List, and Dixie didn't have it marked as "N-SSA Approved". If you had any questions about it, all you had to do was to ask for a clarification before you bought it.

I interpret your question of why the N-SSA allows stainless steel barrels and frames, in place of original iron barrels and frames, as no more than an attempt to foment an argument.

Sincerely,
John Holland
Chairman, N-SSA Small Arms Committee

[marv762]

John my comments made were in no way to start an argument. when the gun was purchased I was told that is was approved by Dixie. on the small arms approved list i saw that a colt navy was ok. I did not know the brass frame was considered something else other than what was on the list. I have limited knowledge of all the exact weapons that were used in the war. I am aware that the sac can approve arms for use in our sport. would this get a card if the barrel was turned down round to be represented as a Griswold and Gunnison revolver, or should i sell it off to a reinacter and look into a steel frame? I shoot a Rogers now and was looking for something with a little less bulk. you can send me a pm at marv762@yahoo.com if you would to let me know my options. again this is not to start an argument, just trying to understand why. thanks Marv

[Edwin Flint]

Is this 44 or 36 Caliber?

The way I see it is that your beef is with Dixie for misleading you with wrong information on N-SSA approved firearms and yourself for assuming they knew what they were talking about.

I don't know the reasoning behind the SAC in denying its approval for the brass frame but this would be my defense of SAC's decision:

Brass existed then and was not used. SS did not exist but more or less looks like an iron frame gun that was made. It was approved for the convenience of the membership since it is easier to clean.

I had nothing to do with the decision. Personally, I would not have approved it.

I think There are differences between the Colt and GG besides the barrel also. I would suggest selling it.

[Maillemaker]

I purchased a colt navy with the brass frame two years ago from dixie. it was not marked unaproved when the purchase was made.

Likewise I'm wondering if this is .36 or .44 caliber. If it is the usual Pietta .44 caliber "1851 Navy", then this is likely not approved because 1851 Navy revolvers were in .36 caliber.

Steve

[marv762]

the gun is 36 cal. also a good shooter with only 8 grns of powder and some filler. Marv