Fremont With Round Ball

[hobbler]

Anybody figured out how to get the best round ball accuracy out of an Armisport Fremont with that three groove barrel? My past thirty years experience of muzzle loading just isn't helping. But I'm still working on it. Thought maybe that asking might help keep me out of someone elses tracks. Hope to hear from ya.

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

Three groove barrels are designed to fire a Minie ball. A patched roundball probably wouldn't work too well given the shallow rifling and slow twist and would neither be fast or easy to load. Hope you're not intending to use a rifled musket for smoothbore competition as that would be a violation of our rules.

Jim Burgess, 15th Conn. Vol. Inf.

[hobbler]

Does anyone have experience with making the .69 caliber Armisport's rifled muskets shoot with a round ball load?

[John Holland]

hobbler,

I haven't tried the .69 caliber military rifling with a round ball, but I can give you an analogy. I had a Navy Arms 1803 Harper's Ferry Rifle some years ago. It was an early one in .58 caliber with one turn in 72", which is minie ball rifling. To get the .58 caliber patched round ball to stabilize I ended up with a powder charge of 100 - 110 gr. of 3FG. At that point I was probably burning some of it outside the muzzle. And even then the group wasn't anything to write home about.

I shot my first patched round ball in 1962, and my experience didn't help with the slow twist rifling in the Navy Arms 1803. But, what my experience did tell me was to get the barrel lined in .54 caliber, one turn in 66". With that combination I have fired a 1.7", 3 shot, group at 100 yards off hand.

Just my experience in the general direction you're interested in.

John Holland
44th NY

[hobbler]

Yep, that sounds about right. This rascal ofcourse has the three grooves, wide lands. The twist is ok for round ball (1 in 66") but the equal width lands and grooves make for some real special feeding. Got balls of .675" and .683" diameter available to work with. One problem right up front is cut patches...now that surprised me.

[John Holland]

Yep, the un-modified 1803 in .58 had the same thing, 3 equal L&G. It was the same rifling A. Zoli used in their 1863 Remington "Zouaves".

Do you think the cut patches might be due to sharp edges on the lands?

What are you using for patching, and lube?

After I had the 1803 lined I used ticking, with plain old Crisco for lube, generously applied on one side only, loaded with the Crisco side against the bore. It is a .540 bore, the ball is .535, .015 patching, and loaded with a short & long starter. Yeah, it's TIGHT, but you can't beat the accuracy!

JDH

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

If you are looking for accuracy and don't have to have a lot of knock down power, try backing down on the powder charge. In working with 4Her's, I found that the .58 Zoli (three different guns) 3 LG rifling worked very well with a thick patch and smaller balls. I was able to get a 1.5" group at 100 yards with a .018 patch and a .565 ball. Lube was bore butter fully soaked patch. Powder charge was 42 to 48 grains of 2f Goex. Also had good results with 85 to 100 grains of 3f Goex. (Did this before I knew we were limited to 60 grains of powder.)

Don't know if this will translate to .69 caliber rifle. The 3LG rifling seemed to have a zero at a low charge and a high charge and shot lousy in the middle size charges.

.

[John Holland]

Thanks Ed,

That is a great comparative.

JDH

[hobbler]

With the .69 Fremont the patch cutting is with a tight patch, around the ball. It's actually shearing hard cotton ticking on tight loadings. I've smoothed out the edges some on the entrance to the lands and grooves, but not taken off much because there really is just so little metal actually there.

Maybe this has something to do with all this, maybe not but it's got me thinking...
The circumference around a .69 bore is 2.16". The circumference around the patch where the patch contacts the barrel is 3.36". That's a difference of 1.23", darn near an extra inch and a quarter of cloth getting gathered up together. It has to go somewhere evenly for accuracy. Gets me to wondering about the practical limits of this operation.

Meanwhile, various thicknesses are being tried out. Thank you much for the inputs. The comments about a low level sweet spot and a high level sweet spot reflect my suspicions about this rascal. If they're there I'll find 'em.

[varsity07840]

Yep, that sounds about right. This rascal ofcourse has the three grooves, wide lands. The twist is ok for round ball (1 in 66") but the equal width lands and grooves make for some real special feeding. Got balls of .675" and .683" diameter available to work with. One problem right up front is cut patches...now that surprised me.

I would think that the .683 would be way too tight, especially if Armi's barrels are the same as Hoyt's and Whitacre's(.687). Doc Gary White recently put up for sale a rifled '42 3 band with a Whitacre. I believe he said he got good accuracy with a .672 ball and 60 gr of 2F Elephant. Not a hunting load though, if that's what you're after. Sort of off topic , I posted a similar question a couple of years ago regarding using roundball in my original rifled '42 relined by Hoyt. The consensus was stay with the minie, ( I've always used the Rapine) but mainly from a safety standpoint. I defered to that judgement, although I didn't quite understand it, given that unless a huge charge was used, pressures would have to be less than those from an original style minie. The muzzleloading forum has a number of posts from a guy in Austria who's been trying to get his Armi rifled '42 to group well. He tried roundballs without much luck and the only minie mould he could get was for the original style. He was using 90 gr of SWISS 3F behind that football. He said he was getting massive headaches. His fillings were probably falling out too.

One last aside. I do shoot patched balls out of my original .58 Mississippi
that Hoyt relined. It has three grooves. It shoots a .570 ball with .018 ticking patch and an over powder wad pretty well. Nice deer rifle.

Duane

[John Holland]

Duane,

What rate of twist did Bobby use in your .58 Mississippi?

JDH

[varsity07840]

Duane,

What rate of twist did Bobby use in your .58 Mississippi?

JDH

John:

I'm actually not sure, but I believe it's 1/72. Bobby did the work before I owned it. It used to belong to Doc Chambers.

Duane

[hobbler]

Well fellers, stand up shooting with a hoe handle is doing 3x ball diameter groups at 40 paces. Not good enough yet for barking squirrels but maybe we'll get there. Might need more powder, using a patch that goes in with stout thumb pressure. Might need more practice too.

[hobbler]

It shoots real good. Just had to figure out how to manufacture a sabot.

Using 14 gage fiber wads over the powder. Saturated the wads in 50:50 melted bees wax and olive oil. When they sank I pulled them out to drain.

Whacked the wad real hard three times when seating on the powder.

Used a lubed cotton patch so thin I could load the patched round ball (683")with one finger. Whacked the seated ball real hard three times.

If I skip the seating ritual it doesn't hit. Do it right and I'm standing up shooting cloverleafs.

[MikeArthur]

is using a round ball and patch allowed on the line?

thanks

[hobbler]

To use this method to make your Fremont a tack driver, according to the posted skirmish rules, it would not matter whether a patch was allowed
(and it's not). Whether you call it a rifle as per the definition in 14.3d of the skirmish rules or a rifled musket as per the small arms list it still is not a carbine and therefore would not be allowed to use the wad to start with. And it was originally manufactured as rifled so you can't use any tin foil either. But then again, if you're going skirmishing with the Fremont it would be best to use quick loading target loads no matter what rules would let you do. And folks are saying some mighty great things about that Rapine .69 minie.
For me, I'm real happy...now I know the windage is on!

[hobbler]

And I am really looking forward to having this awesome cannon for hunting this year.

[Dan Mastin]

Fremont rifle assembled by Steve Doyle. All original parts except the ramrod, front barrel band and rear sight. One piece stock, original glass bedded barrel relined by Hoyt. Comes with a cleaning rod(if I can find it), 100 or so black plastic tubes, sizer, and a Rapine wadcutter mold. The lock is correctly dated and the eagle and US have been removed. It does not have a SAC card because I've never had it inspected. Only fired 10 - 15 times. Not sighted in. Price reduced to $800 trades considered. Email me at zouave47@aol.com
Pics available on request

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Round Ball yes, Patched Round Ball No.

In my experience the ArmiSport Fremonts have a rather big bore. My friend and I each have one, and the bore diameter measures 0.694. I got decent results with the Rapine minie, sized 0.692, and 60 grains of 3F. It seems that a lot of guys who are getting poor accuracy from their guns don't measure their bore diameter, and hence are playing hit-or-miss (more often miss) when it comes to choosing the correct bullet size. The best way to measure bore diameter accurately to within a thousandth is with a set of plug gauges.

[hobbler]

I consider myself exceedingly fortunate to have stumbled into a roundball mold that throws .683". Awesome. Too bad no one makes a short maxi ball or a Lee R*E*A*L type bullet for the Fremont (yet). Located a fella that can do precision grinding to alter molds and may have him revamp the undersized Lyman minie I got 15 years ago.
The Fremont is a using piece...right handy for a water pipe clamped to a gate post. Points quick, nice sights, easy to clean, slam dunks whatever it connects with. Having a little custom work done will be well worth the price. Reading Jeff Davis's 1855 report is just about enough to make you go buy a swaging machine.

[Scott Kurki, 12475]

Check out Rapine Bullet Mould Mfg. Co. Their catalog lists minor changes at $10.00. I believe that you should be able to get exactly the size you need from Rapine.

[hobbler]

Yeah, the wonderful fellow at Rapine is a national treasure. How could you ever replace a guy like that?

[varsity07840]

Yeah, the wonderful fellow at Rapine is a national treasure. How could you ever replace a guy like that?

A couple of years ago I considered trying round balls in my original rifled
'42( Hoyt relined) but reconsidered based on advise in this forum. I opted for the Rapine semi-wadcutter sized .686 for a .687 bore. On a good day it will shoot one big hole at 50 yards. I recently put togeather a
sort of Macon Conversion based on a cut down smoothbore that I picked up for a song. My intent was to build an easy to carry whitetail gun, though not exactly authentic. I had Bob reline and rifle the 26'' bore and put a rear sight on it. The idea of round balls came up agian, but I nixed it when I realized that the ramrod is pretty thin and not intended for seating a patched ball. So, back to the Rapine. Same results.

Duane

[hobbler]

Convincing the Armisport Fremont to shoot well with roundball wasn't easy. The technique I use was developed by an accident of observation. But, it works and I'm way glad that the piece shoots well with patched roundball. For the minie, well, reckon the Lyman is going to be sent off to be custom fit to the bore of this particular piece. Might even have the front band made a little large seeing as I'm not trying to speed load. Will let yall know how it works out.