The Remington Zouave and the Hunley

[Eggman]

I finally got to see National Geographic's presentation of "The Confederacy's Secret Weapon," a two hour presentation of the Hunley project. It is television at its very best!!
The researchers made an extremely strong case toward the damage to the vision port on Dixon's cupola ("conning tower") being the root cause for the Hunley's demise. Evidence supporting this theory included a piece of the flange surrounding the vision port discovered on the botton of the hull inside the Hunley, BENEATH all of the sediment that accumulated later, and destruction tests on a replica cupola produced in Clarksville, TN, made of exactly replicated 1860's cast iron. A well aimed shot impacting on the vision port flange resulted in its catastrophic disintegration. My theory is that in the darkness Dixon did not realize the severity of the damage, and when he dove to escape oncoming Federal ships coming to the Housatonic's rescue, the result was the sub taking on excess water making resurfacing impossible.
For the destruction test the researchers used the exact same firearms the Housatonic's crew used to fire at the sub during its attack. The muskets used were ".58 caliber Remingtons," the same ubiqutious .58 caliber Zouave commonly found on the N-SSA firing line, and the same firearm frequently accused of being "inauthentic" by our reenactor brothers, and other purists.
Now mind you the Hunley team was composed of professional researchers obsessed with being accurate. Do I dare say the Zouave authenticity issue can now be laid to rest?

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

I finally got to see National Geographic's presentation of "The Confederacy's Secret Weapon," a two hour presentation of the Hunley project. It is television at its very best!!
The researchers made an extremely strong case toward the damage to the vision port on Dixon's cupola ("conning tower") being the root cause for the Hunley's demise. Evidence supporting this theory included a piece of the flange surrounding the vision port discovered on the botton of the hull inside the Hunley, BENEATH all of the sediment that accumulated later, and destruction tests on a replica cupola produced in Clarksville, TN, made of exactly replicated 1860's cast iron. A well aimed shot impacting on the vision port flange resulted in its catastrophic disintegration. My theory is that in the darkness Dixon did not realize the severity of the damage, and when he dove to escape oncoming Federal ships coming to the Housatonic's rescue, the result was the sub taking on excess water making resurfacing impossible.
For the destruction test the researchers used the exact same firearms the Housatonic's crew used to fire at the sub during its attack. The muskets used were ".58 caliber Remingtons," the same ubiqutious .58 caliber Zouave commonly found on the N-SSA firing line, and the same firearm frequently accused of being "inauthentic" by our reenactor brothers, and other purists.
Now mind you the Hunley team was composed of professional researchers obsessed with being accurate. Do I dare say the Zouave authenticity issue can now be laid to rest?

Great documentary !!

And no, IMHO that fact the producers used a repro Zouave to demonstrate their theory in no way documents their issued use during the war. The producers were more interested in getting the correct caliber of firearm to demonstrate than correct type of arm. Heck they could of used a .58 caliber in line and gotten the same effect.

[John Holland]

Sure wish my cable company carried it!

The 1863 Remington Rifle? Phil is right.

JDH

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

Could you imagine the door that would open! "Well they used it in a movie....."

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

Joe if that was the case I sure would try to corner the market on Trapdoor Springfields and Single Action Armys !!!!

[RaiderANV]

Right after you remake the Snell & 1855 bayonets again. =)

[Edwin Flint]

The arms aboard the Housatonic should be listed somewhere. Has anyone looked?

[hawkeye2]

The arms aboard the Housatonic should be listed somewhere. Has anyone looked?

Gee, why should we bother? Haven't the Italians done all the necesary research for us?

I wonder if they had .69 caliber Plymouths aboard the Housatanic?

[Eggman]

Well I assumed (yeah I know the cliche) that when they analyzed the Housatonic records it included the firearms in specificity. From my limited knowledge it looked like they had it right (several muskets and one revolver engaged). All the other detail was right on the money, so why not the guns???? Anyway I guess it's not that important except for us folks who love the Remington Zouave and wouldn't mind it getting credit for playing a prominent role in this most sanguine engagement for the hard pressed Confederacy.

[Southron Sr.]

The Navy was and is a separate branch of the service. My understanding is that the so called Remington "Zouaves" were purchased by the U.S. Army's Ordnance Department. The Navy never purchased any original Zouaves.

There is probably a good chance that the shot that sank the Hunley was fired by a Plymouth Naval Rifle as those .69 Caliber Rifles were carried aboard naval vessels. Like was said earlier in this thread, maybe someone needs to look up the inventory of arms aboard the U.S.S. Housatonic.

[George Gompf]

Just to throw my two cents in, it is my understanding that in the previous sinking’s of the Hunley, when the boat was raised it presented a grisly scene of the men all tangled up and fighting to exit through the small hatch. I believe when the crew was removed from the Hunley after its last mission, the crew was sitting in their duty stations as though waiting to surface. It would seem to me they were extremely courageous and brave to sit at their stations and slowly drown as the water came in the observation window whether cracked, pierced or completely blown out. It makes sense to me that if they were taking on water they would have made any attempt to exit the boat on the slimmest chance for survival as opposed to sitting peacefully and waiting to die.

I would not rule out the possibility that damage long years after the crew had passed away could have resulted in fragments of the glass falling inside the boat and long before it filled with sediment. In fact, the boat would probably have resisted collecting sediment inside and remained fairly clean so to speak until the hull or other damage made a major breach to allow currents to bring in silt.

Just my opinion but from my visit to the museum where the Hunley resides and the information I have read, they died of a lack of oxygen, sitting at their stations, waiting for a miracle to allow them to surface. Eventually we may have some knowledge of what happened.

George Gompf
FEC - Deep South Region

[Southron Sr.]

Needless to say, when the torpedo at the end of the Hunley's Boon went off, I am sure that there was some damage to the Hunley then. Recall that shock waves are transmitted through water much better than they are transmitted through air. I doubt that the Hunley's torpedo used a "Shaped Charge" even though (if I recall correctly) the "Monroe Effect" was known before the Civil War.

[On a side note, can you imagine being a member of the Hunley crew and sitting thru the shock and noise of the torpedo going off? Especially in a hollow iron boat only a short distance away from the explosion!]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the "Modern Torpedo" (that runs free from the vessel from which it was launched) just beneath the surface of the water was invented in 1867 by a British inventor-thereby changing the rules of naval warfare permanently.

[Eggman]

Yeah George that was my theory up until the TV show. It still may be the best. The fact that the men were at their posts definately is proof of lack of panic. They expected to resurface, no doubt about it. With the fragment on the very bottom, my thinking was they took on enough water through the port hole area to tip the balance against resurfacing. I am convinced either way they went to the bottom on purpose.
I don't think the blast would have disabled the crew with the sub in the posture it was, with its knife edged prow perpendicular to the Houstonic. I think it's orientation would cause it to slip right through the blast wave with little attribution. Maybe one of our submarine or ballistics guys can comment on this.
I think fifty years from now our grand kids will be having this same discussion.

[bilge water bob]

I finally got to see National Geographic's presentation of "The Confederacy's Secret Weapon," a two hour presentation of the Hunley project. It is television at its very best!!
The researchers made an extremely strong case toward the damage to the vision port on Dixon's cupola ("conning tower") being the root cause for the Hunley's demise. Evidence supporting this theory included a piece of the flange surrounding the vision port discovered on the botton of the hull inside the Hunley, BENEATH all of the sediment that accumulated later, and destruction tests on a replica cupola produced in Clarksville, TN, made of exactly replicated 1860's cast iron. A well aimed shot impacting on the vision port flange resulted in its catastrophic disintegration. My theory is that in the darkness Dixon did not realize the severity of the damage, and when he dove to escape oncoming Federal ships coming to the Housatonic's rescue, the result was the sub taking on excess water making resurfacing impossible.
For the destruction test the researchers used the exact same firearms the Housatonic's crew used to fire at the sub during its attack. The muskets used were ".58 caliber Remingtons," the same ubiqutious .58 caliber Zouave commonly found on the N-SSA firing line, and the same firearm frequently accused of being "inauthentic" by our reenactor brothers, and other purists.
Now mind you the Hunley team was composed of professional researchers obsessed with being accurate. Do I dare say the Zouave authenticity issue can now be laid to rest?

Isn't the M1841 of Remington design?? and wern't they made available in .58? I doubt any true yankee sailor would refer to it as a Mississippi.just sayin'

[Muley Gil]

"Isn't the M1841 of Remington design?? and wern't they made available in .58?"

The 1841 rifles, or Mississippis, were designed and built at the Harpers Ferry, Virginia Armory. Contractors, like Whitney, also built 1841s. IIRC, Remington modified a number of 1841s. And yes, a number of them were rebored to .58.

[Southron Sr.]

If there were any ".58 Caliber Remingtons" on the U.S.S. Housatonic, then they were Remington made Mississippi Rifles rebored to .58 caliber.

The so called Remington "Zouaves" delivered to the Ordnance Department of the ARMY were probably in storage. Remington did not deliver any of its Model 1861 "Springfields" until later in 1864.

[Blair]

The two arms most likely used in this encounter will be either of the two known as Harpers Ferry Rifles within the Ordnance Community during the time period.
These would have been the M-1841 Rifles (post 1855 M-1841 Harpers Ferry alteration/modification) or the M-1855 Rifles.
The Remington Contract Rifle of 1861 or 1863 would be very suspect.
None-the-less, USN purchases of such weapon/firearms should show up within their receipts as to time and dates and Ships such arms were provided/issued.
These are simply my thoughts on this subject.
Blair