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Scott Kurki, 12475
01-12-2009, 02:10 PM
I am wondering what the typical reproduction 1858 is like in terms of accuracy and quality. Do they typically require work such as:
*setting the barrel back and re-cutting the forcing cone
*squaring the forcing cone to the cylinder
*center boring the charge holes to line up with the barrel
*recutting the crown on the barrel

Or are they generally pretty good to go straight from the box?

Boge
01-12-2009, 06:07 PM
You don't need to set the barrel back to chamfer the forcing cone. :wink: It helps to have chambers the same diam. as the barrel groove diameter. The problem is if your groove diam. is OVER say 0.457 and then you need a custom mould made for larger round balls & that's a pain in the butt.

PM sent.

Mike McDaniel
01-13-2009, 12:47 PM
Your average repro will need some or all of the above. Probably the most common issue is getting the chambers to line up properly with the barrel. The crown is usually OK.

Don Dixon
01-13-2009, 08:10 PM
They are generally not good to go from the box. The Italians are perfectly capable of making fine reproduction arms. The U.S. importers are not interested in paying for them, however. So, you get the cr*p the importers are willing to pay for, which is not much. You may get an occasional good revolver, but most will require serious work if you want them to shot well. Its amusing when you look down the bore and discover that one to three chambers do not line up with the bore of the barrel.

The result depends on your skill level, and what you are looking for. If you want one that will shoot, talk with Rob at Tri-L at the spring nationals. He's currently the only game in town.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

Edwin Flint, 8427
01-13-2009, 08:49 PM
There is a Shooter's Revolver offered by Dixie and a couple of other importers that is better than most. You will pay about double for this over the typical import, but it is much better than the others.

threepdr
01-14-2009, 09:30 AM
I bought an Uberti "forged frame" m58 and it shoots great right out of the box. With 20grs and a 454 ball it will put the round into a clay target everytime at 25 yards off the bench rest.

Unfortunatly my shooting abilities off hand are not nearly as good. :( I suspect a finely tuned revolver would shoot better, but I would have to be a much better shot to take advantage of the difference.

Mike McDaniel
01-14-2009, 10:23 AM
No you don't.

This is a case of error budgeting. If you are trying to hit a 4-inch pigeon or tile with a revolver that will shoot a 4-inch group, you have to hold perfectly...the gun's inaccuracy eats up 100% of your error budget.

I don't know about you, but I've never seen someone who shot that well.

On the other hand, if your gun will shoot 1 inch, then you have 3 inches to play with. THAT is do-able.

Scott Kurki, 12475
01-14-2009, 01:28 PM
Error budgeting is what the more finely tuned gun is all about. I have never heard the term before but it is perfect. Many people don't think they need a well tuned gun because their skills are not up to speed. Error budgeting is the perfect way to explain the need for better tuning.

RobBethke3rdMDArty
01-14-2009, 05:18 PM
"Many people don't think they need a well tuned gun because their skills are not up to speed."

That reasoning occurs in golf as well. People don't see the need for better equipment because their skills are not there. But better equipment helps people play/shoot better.

Don Dixon
01-14-2009, 08:45 PM
Lets see here. A four inch group -- the size of a clay pigeon?? Oh wow!

On the N-SSA, NRA, and MLRA 25 yard paper target:
X ring = 1.5 inches
10 ring = 3.25 inches
9 ring = 5.5 inches

In N-SSA scoring, the bullet has to be at least half way into the higher scoring ring to score the higher value of the shot. If you do everything absolutely perfectly, that means that you will average no better than a score of 90 on the 25 yard paper target. That will win you absolutely nothing in any of the N-SSA classes. And, no one has ever shot absolutely perfectly, with the possible exception of Lonas Wigger in his prime.

And, we're not even talking about accuracy on the 50 yard target.

Don't waste money. Buy a pistol that is capable of shooting. Then you might actually want to practice. "How to you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice!"

Please don't take this as a personal affront. It's not intended that way.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

R Filbert
01-14-2009, 09:36 PM
R Filbert here with Hazelwod; Been doing work on revolvers that seems to work very well if interested give a call or come to the camp area 5. In volves cutting an 11deg. forcing cone centered correctly in the barrel and making sure theres not to much space between chamber and barrel Then correct chamber to barrel alignment an reaming chamber to correct size.Ihave done several Colts and remingtons with good to exelent results hope to here from you . Barrett and A/C know me- so lets give a look!

paul w/McGregor's 385V
01-14-2009, 10:19 PM
Don,
As Mike McDaniel is coincidently one of the top five revolver shooters in the N-SSA, a DSSA medal holder, and a member of the USIMLT, I would presume he knows a bit about hitting the ten ring.

Take care and be safe
pfb

Don Dixon
01-14-2009, 11:30 PM
Paul,

My comments were not directed toward Mike, who is a good friend. They were intended more toward those who think that they can do this with any old thing they pick up on Suttlers' Row.

Having spoken often with Mike about revolver shooting, I think that you will find both of us are in agreement. We both have N-SSA Distinguished Revolver badges, and International Master badges from the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team, won while shooting short guns. I also have the N-SSA Distinguished Skirmisher Badge.

Regards,
Don

paul w/McGregor's 385V
01-15-2009, 07:21 AM
Don,
My misreading of your posting.

I agree an average out of the box repro is very unlikely to be competition ready. Even the best of them require a bit of touch up.

Take care and be safe
pfb

Charlie Hahn
01-15-2009, 08:23 AM
Scott,

As for the pistol tuning, I am currently doing the modifications, which include a new barrel, chamber alignment, timing, and new sights, with a straight trigger. This is similar to a Ball revolver. My fees are resonable for this and I will have at least one store gun at the Spring National for inspection, I have done five this winter and have most of my tooling complete.

Charlie Hahn

Mike McDaniel
01-15-2009, 09:44 AM
Don and I have discussed this a lot, and are 100.00% in agreement. (Although I appreciate Paul's support - Thanks :) )

We've both noticed that Skirmishers who will spend $1,500 on a custom musket, and $3,000 on a Romano Maynard, will try to shoot a $200 Italian junker on the revolver range.

With predictable results.

It's all about the error budget. If your gun shoots a 4-inch group, your hold has to be perfect if you are to hit a pigeon. ANY error will have devastating results due to the significant increases in potential hit area (A=3.14159*R**2). Double the error radius, and you quadruple the area a bullet can fall into.

And I've never seen any pistol shooter who can shoot without error. Not me, not Don, not John Anderson....hell, not even Bill Demarest - and HE holds the World Record in Free Pistol.

So you have to get the mechanical inaccuracies out of the gun. You need every bit of error budget for your hand and eye. Even more so if you want to play in the International league - THAT target has a 10-ring that is 40mm in diameter (about the size of our X-ring). And if you want to be seriously competitive at Worlds, you need to put half of all shots fired in that 10-ring.

Doing this demands that you spend the money to get the best guns available. Don's shooting a Ball gun, I'm shooting a Hege...neither are junk. And we've been working with the FWB Rogers & Spencer.

le piaf
01-17-2009, 09:20 AM
hello ,
Mike is right
you can not expect the same results out of the box from a $200 revolver
and from an $1200 hege match or feinwerkbau R&S.
With the cheapest , if you are lucky ,you start with a 3 inch group , and after a few dozen of hours of tuning you can reach a 1,5 inch group .
my hege match give since the first day ,a .5 inch ragged hole ( I said my gun , not me :wink: ).
I shot also with an original ( SN:95XXX and 95% of his blue!) with a new front sight and a few hours to adjust the trigger weight . this gun give pretty one inch group.
:oops: I am french and in Europe we used 25 meter (25 yards +a fistful of inches) range for handguns .