44-40 Henry

[4440]

For those of you that shoot the 44-40 Henry could you please share information regarding the bullet / lube / powder type / primer you are using.

Also, if possible, how many rounds are you able to fire accurately before accuracy starts to deteriorate.

Thank you,
4440

[lmcmahon]

Bullet - 427098CV Lyman Mould sized to 428
Lube - MCM Lube
27.5 grains FFFG
Winchester large revolver primer

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

Here's a link to my 44-40 Henry notes.
1. I like to get my lead as hard as I could without leaving a crater at the sprue-cutter. A Lyman #2 alloy was too hard, but BHN=12 did the trick.
2. You want to get as much muzzle velocity as you can, but you either have to find how much you can fit in the cartridge without compressing at all, or compress the entire load. Partial compression of the load degrades accuracy.
3. My load is 34 grains of Swiss FFFg using that Mav Dutchman "Big Lube" bullet & Winchester Western Large Pistol Primers.
4. These load tables are for factory rifling. I recently had the barrel relined with a slower twist. I think they make these guns to shoot a smokeless powder load with copper jacketed bullets. I haven't been to the range yet with it.
5. When I was trying to find a load, I polled the BB, and the list of everyone who replied is in below the table in this link.

Here's the link: http://acwsa.org/Pages/ShootingNotebook.htm

[bobanderson]

I have a Navy Arms Iron Frame Henry in 44-40. I use the Lyman 427098 in an alloy mixture of 3 parts pure lead to one part wheel weights. (I smelt my wheel weights in 100 lb lots to make sure it is a consistent mix.) I use a charge of 30 grains of Goex 3fg powder and any large pistol primer. The gun doesn't seem to know the difference.
I DO believe my bullet lube is far superior to the store bought ones. It's called "N" lube, for the Neutrogena soap used in it's mixture. The recipe is simple, 8 oz by liquid measure of bees wax, 8 oz of pure neatsfoot oil and one Neutrogena bar. They come in all flavors, but I use the plain. Melt all together and stir until the mix starts to cool enough to start to coagulate on the sides of your pan. (If you use it too hot it will separate.) I pour the mixture into stick moulds made from 3/4" pvc pipe with arrow shafts to form the core hole to fit in my Lyman lubrisizer.
I use this lube in every black powder application from 45-90 shooting heavy loads at 1000 yards to 45-70 shooting at steel silhouettes at 500 meters to lubing minies for the musket. It keeps the fouling soft and prevents leading.

[matt]

Mav dutchman big lube bullet sized to .429 30 grns goex 2f compressed win lg mag pistol primer primer hole drilled out with #41 drill bit. Lube is a homemade
recipe.
Matt

[4440]

Gentleman,
Thank you very much for your information. I was wondering what recipies otherr 44-40 shooters were using.

Being somewhat of a traditionalist, my goal, in part, has been to replicate the ballistics of the original 44WCF / 44-40 cartridge which was 1,300 f.p.s. with a 200 gr bullet, and to shoot a minimum of 30 rounds with no loss of accuracy with no cleaning during the shooting.

lmcmahon,
Do you use a filler with the reduced load?

Gary Van Kauwenbergh,
Interesting data. Thank you.

BobAnderson,
Interesting lube. Thank you. Have you tested the accuracy after a number of rounds have been fired? Regarding the reduced charge, do you use a filler?

Matt,
With 30 grs of Goex, and a Big Lube bullet, There is some airspace in the R-P cases I use. Do you use a filler?

Thank you,
4440

[matt]

no filler no airspace compression is such that the bullet seats right on top of the compressed powder. With the huge grease groove it is a longer bullet for the
weight.
Matt

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

There's nothing cleaner than using FFFg Swiss powder with that 'Big Lube' bullet, and it does weigh about 200 grains. 34 grains of Swiss will fit uncompressed into a 44-40 cartridge, but you'll have to use a drop tube or tap the side of the case to settle the load before pressing in the bullet.

[lmcmahon]

No filler used, bullet compresses the powder.

[Yancey von Yeast, 8073]

My Henry is Hoyt lined and I exactly agree with everything that Gary had to say. My gun shoots the Mav Dutchman very well but it shoots the Lyman 429667 just as well. It has a large lube groove and holds plenty of lube. I have tried pure lead and tin/lead alloys and have found that something like 40/1 tin lead shoots tight groups. Pure lead shoots well and will break targets but just does not seem to do as well as harder lead. I also think that wheel weights vary all over the scale in hardness.

[4440]

Guys,
Thank you for the additional information. Interesting.

I too have found that SWISS is the only (latests tests with the latest lot of KIK look promising) b.p. that will shoot clean (not foul out) for many rounds using a copy of the original 44-40 bullet (427098). When I get a chance within the next few days, I'll posts some of the results I have gotten with black powder in the 44-40 including trying to match the Doc Pardee target illustrated in the 1875 Winchester catalog (30 successive shots inside 4" @ 110 yards.).

Have a great labor day weekend.

44-40 (aka w44wcf)

[4440]

I've been reloading for the 44-40 since 1999 so I'm a bit of a newbe. I have come to prefer the historic time proven 427098 bullet which is a copy of the original 44-40 bullet. Since most current 44-40 rifles have groove diameters of .429"+ and, the last I knew, the 427098 bullet ny Lyman drops bullets that are .427 / .428" diameter (which is fine for most original rifles), the ACCURATE MOLD 43-210B is a copy of the 427098 and when ordered, the bullet diameter can be specified based on the alloy to be used. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-210B-D.png

A good friend of mine worked with Tom at Accurate to get this design in his catalog. I have the 3 cavity mold and it is excellent.:D

I have found that the bullets made from the ACCURATE MOLD 43-210B, have shot the best of any others I have tried (Big Lube, 429666, Black Dawge, RCBS 200) from my rifle especially when the range is 100 yards and more. The one issue though is that with Goex, Schuetzen or Diamondback, the bullet will "foul out" in a 24" barrel (hard ring of fouling extending back in from the muzzle) in about 15 rounds with accuracy going downhill after that. (The same is true of the 429666, Black Dawge and RCBS 200 but not the Big Lube).

SWISS has been the only black powder (I am currently testing the latest lot of KIK which looks very promising as well) that will not "foul out" with many rounds being fired.

My personal goal with the 44-40 has been to replicate the performance of the original b.p. cartridge which was in the neighborhood of 1,300 f.p.s. and that performance.... with accuracy.... has been my focus.

Back in 1875, Doc Pardee submitted a 30 shot target to Winchester he fired with an 1873 44-40 at 110 yards. He said that "......The firing was done without wiping, which proves the Winchester to be steady in her performance....." The group measures a bit less than 4".

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/DocPardee.jpg

My goal for the last few years, has been to try and replicate that target and a few months ago I gave it a shot. I did use a 4X scope since my 68 year old eyes don't see iron sights quite as well and I wanted this to be a test of the gun/bullet/load combination rather than ow well I can see.

Anyway, here was the result. Load info on the target.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/44-40DocPardeedup3.jpg

I was very happy to say the least.

After firing the 30 round target, I fired another 10 rounds to see how the accuracy would hold with a total of 40 rounds being fired.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/44-40shots31-40a.jpg

Very good performance from late 1800's replication 44-40 cartridges, I'd say.

I have fired on targets at 200 and 330 yards and will post those results in the near future......

Long live the 44-40!

4440

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

I use a discontinued Lyman 230 grain flat nose bullet designed to take a gas check. My lead alloy is an unscientific composite of what everyone is shooting into the backstop (my lead source) in terms of carbine and breechloader bullets. My bullet is sized .429 and SPG lube fills the single grease groove and rebated base in lieu of the gas check. This is loaded over 24.0 grains FFFg (GOEX) and enough cream of wheat filler to give a little compression when loaded. I'm currently using Remington brass. I do not brush or clean between relays and don't notice any deterioration in accuracy. This would be difficult to measure without benching the gun over a multitude of shots. Somehow I manage to stay in expert class with this load.
Jim Burgess, 15th Conn. Vol. Inf.

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

P.S.: I use magnum large pistol primers with the above load.
Jim Burgess, 15th CVI

[Eggman]

I know Giles Chavious uses a padded shirt to keep that sharp buttplate from digging into his bony shoulder.

[Eggman]

Sorry about that last post. The pletora of lubes mentioned above caused me to fulminate excessively and lose track of the original subject.

[4440]

Jim,
Thank you for your information. I have that bullet mold (429434) but never thought about using it with b.p. Hmmm........
:D
You have given me an idea. I think I would like to try the original 26 gr. 44 Henry loading that was used under the 216 & 225 gr factory bullets with it. I will try using psb (Poly Shot Buffer) for filler since I have a fair amount of it.


Thank you again,

4440

[hp gregory]

one bullet that is very popular is the rcbs 240 grn target bullet. it has a trunucated cone nose and is set up for a gas check. of course you cant use a gas check in nssa shooting so some shoot the bullet as it comes without a gas check installed. others like myself have machined the mold to get rid of the gas check. its not a big deal to do if you know someone with a mill. these bullets buck the wind like nothing else i tried. most use 24 to 26 grns of 3f goex and cream of wheat filler. enough to compress the powder. i cast the bullet 25to1 lead to tin ratio. i use lens lube in all my guns but smoothy. this lube works every bit as good as spg, maybe better. while dumping old ammo at the end of the year i have found that i could get between 40 and 50 rnds out of the rifle without major fouling. but i would suggest wiping the bore after each paper target or each segment of a skirmish. i would suggest a magnum pistol primer and a good crimp when loading. the hot primer helps with the fouling and a good crimp is needed to keep the bullets in the tube in place under recoil. the cream of wheat is needed not only to compress the powder for good ignition but so that the bullets wont push down into the case when loading in the tube. if these bullets are properly seated and crimped you can get the maximum number of rounds in the gun. when first working up a load for this rifle years ago i tried every 44 bullet i could find. i ended up with a bunch of molds. when all was said and done this bullet shot better in my rifle than anything else i tried.

hp gregory

[4440]

hp gregory,
Thank you for your response. Interesting. Are you removing the gas check shank portion from the back of the mold, or opening it up to groove diameter?

Thank you,
4440

[Chris Sweeney]

I just picked up a Henry. The only 44 cal mold I have is an RCBS labelled "44-200 FN" casts about a 429 bullet. Anyone used this one? What is this MAV Dutchman y'all are raving about?

[matt]

The mav dutchman bullet is a bullet designed to shoot with BP by a CAS shooter and is a big lube design. It has only one grease groove but it holds a ton of lube. You can find them at www.biglube.com . They cast 6 at a time and I love them for the 44-40 and also have the PRS(pigeon rooster slim) bullet that i use in 45 colt.
Matt
Winslow's battery

[4440]

I just picked up a Henry. The only 44 cal mold I have is an RCBS labelled "44-200 FN" casts about a 429 bullet. Anyone used this one? What is this MAV Dutchman y'all are raving about?

Chris,
I use that bullet with smokeless and it shoots very well. I have not tried it with b.p. since it does not hold a lot of lube. Here's a pic of current 44-40 b.p. bullets including the MAV big lube......

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector Cartridges/44-40bpbullets.jpg

Since I like shooting my 44-40 leverguns at longer distances, I find that the 427098 (original 44-40 b.p. bullet) with Swiss powder shoots the best accuracy wise closely followed by the Accurate 43-215C which has a profile similar to the 427098 but carries the extra lube needed to run with Goex, Schuetzen, or Diamondback.

Here's a 200 yard target ...8 of 10 shots inside a 4" circle....... :)

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/427098200yardsa.jpg

w44wcf

[efritz]

Bob,

Do you happen to shoot a smoothbore and use that lube in it? If so, Can you shoot without cleaning between relays?

[Space Cowboy]

4440,

Congratulation, this is an excellent group! I have been fighting my 1873 Uberti Winchester rifle for years now to fire at leat 15 shots without loosing accuracy. I really like the MAV bullet design. I used various Lee and RCBS molds for casting, but none of them seems to be able to hold enough lube to solve the fouling problem. I have good group for 5-8 shots, but after that nothing good.

So thanks for posting! I'll try your solution.

Best regards,
SC

[4440]

SC,
Thank you for the kind words. Sorry I'm a bit late. Hopefully It will work for you a it has for me.

w44wcf

[4440]

While the historic 44-40 427098 bullet runs great with Swiss powder for many shots with no foul out, it does not with Goex and fouls out in a dozen rounds or so (hard ring of fouling at the muzzle extending back into the barrel) in my 24" barrel.

For best longer range accuracy with Goex, I felt that a bullet that retained the nose profile of the original 44-40 bullet along with additional lube capacity to prevent foul out, would be the best answer so I worked with Accurate Molds on the design.

The result was the Accurate 43-215C (in the pic above). Testing has shown that bullet to perform very well at 100+ yards, giving groups in the 2" - 3" range (10 shots) and to run trouble free with Goex and similar powders. :D

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector Cartridges/44-40bpbulletcartridgecomparison.jpg

4440

[Bullseye54]

Howdy all, Who manufactures the mold for this "Big lube " bullet? I would like to try them out.. Andthat is a very interesting lube mix... Thanks Joe

[4440]

Bullseye54,

These bullets all hold enough lube to run trouble free (no foul out) for many b.p. rounds down a 24" barrel.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector Cartridges/44-40BlackPowderbullets-1.jpg

The NOE on the right was a special run and is no longer available.

For the best 100+ yard accuracy, I find that the 43-215C is the most accurate...probably mostly due to the more streamlined nose that replicates the original 44-40 bullet.


The "Big Lube" on the left is available from:
www.biglube.com (http://www.biglube.com)


The 43-215C is available from:
www.accuratemolds.com (http://www.accuratemolds.com)


4440