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View Full Version : Which CW percussion carbine (orig/antique) for shooting?



Swede68
01-08-2009, 06:42 PM
Hi!
I´m new on this board. I´m from Sweden and collect and shoot antique percussion revolvers. Have been for 20 or so years now. I hang out a lot at the Antiqueguns.com message board, and the guys there sent me in this direction.
The thing is that I want to purchase an original/antique Civil War breachloading percussion carbine for my collection, but also for some occasional target shooting (just for fun though).
It needs to be antique and percussion due to gunlaws here in Sweden. I have permits for and shoot/compete with modern pistols, revolvers and rifles, but every permit is a pain to get, and I´ve reached a point where I´d need to get rid of something to get something new. I´m only telling you this to make it clear why a modern firing replica isn´t an option for me since a replica requires a permit here.

These carbines are totally new to me, so my questions may be very basic to you guys, but any and all advice is welcome.

So, question is what carbine to get?
The guys at Antiqueguns indicated that a Smith might be the best way to go, and I really like the look of it, so that´s definitely an option that I´m considering.
The "typical" carbine however in my mind would be a Sharps (not so important to me which model). So that´s another strong contender.
The Burnside has a serious look to it, so while not as sleek and beautiful as the Smith, and not as "typical" as the Sharps, it´s definitely on the list.
I think I´ve understood (thanks to the guys at Antiqueguns) how these three different carbines basically function.

Are there any other carbines that I should consider? Please remember that I intend to shoot it occasionally, so it shouldn´t be to awkward to operate, or to difficult to make loads for. The mechanical integrity (risk of need for gunsmithing) is definitely one consideration.
If you do suggest any other carbines, please make a short basic description how they work mechanically and how they´re loaded (metallic, plastic or paper cartridge, or loose powder and ball).

In other words, have I allready got the best three options on my list, and if so, which of those three is the better option, and why?
Or should I look at something else, and if so what?

Regards!
Anders Olsson

pastore
01-08-2009, 06:52 PM
I would highly recomend the Smith, and my second choice would be a Maynard. Both can be loaded with brass or plastic cases. :)

Swede68
01-08-2009, 07:03 PM
While definitely "uglier" (forgive me! :lol: ) than any of the three I´ve allready got on my list, it does look like it meens business, I like it! Thanks Pastore, it goes on the list!

While we´re on the subject, yet another question. I know that Dixie has both brass and plastic cartridges for the Smith (don´t know about any of the other carbines), but I have a feeling that they may not be the "best" place to buy. I´ve bought from them before, and felt that their service was good, but I suspect that you guys may have better sources for cartridges, bullets and bullet moulds and so on. Any websites you could recomend?

Anders Olsson

Frog
01-08-2009, 07:33 PM
At the top of the page click on the "N-SSA Home Page" , when that loads click on "Links of interest" and check out the sutlers section.

This will give you a place to start.

Harry Gaul
01-08-2009, 09:35 PM
Anders,

I have a 5th Model Burnsides carbine that has some collectors value, but not pristine to the point you are going to destory its value by shooting it. It comes with ten Brass burnside cases (unfired). If you are interested, email me at

har3rdus@verizon.net

and we can discuss pictures, price, condition, shipping, payment and all the other good things that comes with selling a firearm.

True blue and diamond Hard,
Harry

Swede68
01-09-2009, 04:17 AM
Thanks Frog!

Harry, you have mail!

Anders Olsson

WV SCROUNGER
01-09-2009, 07:11 AM
The Sharps has always been my favorite. It gives you a much wider choice of powder loads. You can laod it lite for plinking or up the powder for Buffalo ! Smiths are 2nd in my opinion....they are more in the pistol power range...and they sometimes develop problems with lock up...
Of course you pay for what you get. I always get the best my wallet can afford....Do it right the first time!!! Get a Sharps !

Swede68
01-09-2009, 08:40 AM
Thanks Steve for your input!
The Sharps is probably still my favourite option, not least because I think that it is the carbine most closely associated with the CW, at least for those of us who are not very knowledgeable. I´m familiar with most types of revolvers from the era, since that is my true interest, the carbines haven´t come into the picture until the last couple of months (although I was aware of their existance of corse) and more out of curiosity. I don´t expect there´ll ever be more than one carbine in my collection (I´d like to incorporate a percussion rifled musket also).

Anyhow, while the Sharps probably is something of a favourite, the Smith isn´t far behind. The Smith has something that most of the carbines (including the Sharps) lack, and that is "classic" good sleek looks.
Price is an issue also, or should I say price and condition. I´d rather get a really good Smith (or one of the others) than a "so and so" Sharps. The budget for this isn´t unlimited.

Otherwise, I´m well aware that you´re right, there´s no use in saving money by buying a gun questionable condition, especcially as I intend to actually shoot it occasionally.

Regards!
Anders Olsson

David Disher 12143
01-09-2009, 08:52 AM
Swede:

Glad to see you found your way over here. We have traded posts on this subject, over at Antuque guns, and I had talked about the Smith Carbine. You are definitely in the right place. You will find a multitude of experienced shooters, willing to answer all your questions about any of the available carbines. If its approved, it is shot by someone on this board.

I think you will find that the Smith vs Sharps crowds are the most lively. Then there are the Maynard-obsessed...very colorful. Just make sure you dont ask about the Starr (tomato stake), unless you want to see fireworks.

Best of luck finding your carbine. I know you will have fun with it.

PS: You may find that someone here may have a carbine that you can purchase. Please feel safe doing business with anyone in the N-SSA. You will be dealt with honestly, and fairly, without exception.

ddisher
110th OVI
12143

Swede68
01-09-2009, 10:15 AM
What about the Starr?!? :P

Sorry, couldn´t help myself! :lol:

Thanks ddisher, I allready feel at home here!
I have a contact in the US from which I buy most of my revolvers (and I´ve bought a lot of them), and he´ll get back to me in a few days with what he has, or can get for me.
However, I´ve allready been contacted by a couple of other potential sellers, and am awaiting descriptions, pictures and pricing for those carbines.

I should be making a purchase (or at leat putting the final details towards one) sometime late next week at the latest.

Anders Olsson

Edwin Flint, 8427
01-09-2009, 01:48 PM
There is a bit of negative information and opinions about the Starr. Quite frankly, my only experience with the Starr is watching my teammate shoot his Starr with great success. His is in excellent condition and doesn't leak. In my view it is an attractive, sleek weapon that has performed well everytime he uses it.

The Burnside has an okay reputation but from what I have seen, it has some quirks.

The easiest to shoot are The Smith, the Maynard and the Sharps. The best of the reproduction Sharps is the Shiloh. Right out of the box no problems. The other repros have to have work of some kind to make them consistent or shoot over 10 rounds without freezing up.

If you are looking for a Southern Carbine, you need to look for the muzzle loading carbines. The Enfields, JP Murray, Richmonds, etc. There were more of them used in the southern army than the Breechloaders.

Welcome to the board.

Swede68
01-09-2009, 02:11 PM
Thanks Edwin!

Repros are out of the question, due to Swedish regulation on firearms (antiques are free, repros require a permit).

I think I´m sticking with the Union side on this.

What exactly ARE the quirks of the Burnside? From just looking at it, it would seem to be a pretty sturdy design with a solid frame and a hinged breechblock. The Smith with it´s hinged frame would (to my inexperienced eye) seem more voulnerable to loosening and gas leakage.

The Sharps starts to worry me a bit, it seems to be a lot of moving parts involved to make it work properly.

I´m not ruling anything out yet, but the Smith is looking pretty strong right now, with reasonable pricing (compared to the Sharps) and a good reputation. Add to that darn good looks...
Well, as stated before, I´m not deciding on anything (other than that I WILL get a carbine) until I know what my contact has for me, and what others have to offer.

Anders Olsson

John Holland
01-09-2009, 03:38 PM
Swede68,

Disregarding things like quirks, you have the basic cost of cartridge cases. The Burnside cases are somewhere around $4.00 US apiece, and the Smith tubes (black high temp neoprene) are about $25 to $30 per hundred.

I have shot both arms and by far prefer a Smith over a Burnside.

John Holland
44th New York
Comp # 0973

David Disher 12143
01-09-2009, 04:30 PM
Swede:


I wasnt gonna mention that about the Sharps, because I have never owned one, but there are a lot of moving parts, and I can honestly say that after a competition, I can sit down next to a team mate, and he will be cleaning a Sharps...I could clean my Smith and my musket, have time to change clothes and relax, and he would still be fiddling with the breech block.

They are more work to clean, but I know they are a terribly accurate weapon in the hands of an experienced shooter.

ddisher
110thOVI
12143

Swede68
01-09-2009, 04:51 PM
Thanks John and ddisher!

Okey, it´s starting to lean more and more towards a Smith.

While accuracy does matter, I won´t be shooting any matches with the carbine, it will be "plinking". I´d rather spend that time shooting another few rounds than spending it on extra time consuming cleaning.

However, the cost of cases for the Burnside, even at 4 bucks a pop doesn´t really discourage me. I´ll probably buy 50 or so, and that should last me a lifetime. It´s not like I expect to be shooting the carbine every week or anything. If I find the time to fire 200 rounds a year with it, that would be great. Still have all my modern guns and the percussion revolvers that wants range time, plus I need time to bring in the cash so I can keep on sending lead downrange!
With the Smith, I could get a lot more for a lot less money, but the neoprene cases doesn´t last nearly as long from what I´ve read.

The main thing here is that makes me lean more and more towards the Smith is that it seems to have a good reputation, neoprene cases seem to be readily available, the gun costs less than the Sharps, and looks very good.

Whether it will shoot 1" groups, 5" groups or 10" groups at 50 yards isn´t all that important, although I´ll certainly try to maximize the precision once I have the gun, because that´s part of the fun.

We´ll see if someone will come along and talk me out of the Smith and in to something else. Also, there´s still the small matter of what´s out there and for sale.

Anders Olsson

pastore
01-09-2009, 05:44 PM
Thanks John and ddisher!

Okey, it´s starting to lean more and more towards a Smith.

While accuracy does matter, I won´t be shooting any matches with the carbine, it will be "plinking". I´d rather spend that time shooting another few rounds than spending it on extra time consuming cleaning.

However, the cost of cases for the Burnside, even at 4 bucks a pop doesn´t really discourage me. I´ll probably buy 50 or so, and that should last me a lifetime. It´s not like I expect to be shooting the carbine every week or anything. If I find the time to fire 200 rounds a year with it, that would be great. Still have all my modern guns and the percussion revolvers that wants range time, plus I need time to bring in the cash so I can keep on sending lead downrange!
With the Smith, I could get a lot more for a lot less money, but the neoprene cases doesn´t last nearly as long from what I´ve read.

The main thing here is that makes me lean more and more towards the Smith is that it seems to have a good reputation, neoprene cases seem to be readily available, the gun costs less than the Sharps, and looks very good.

Whether it will shoot 1" groups, 5" groups or 10" groups at 50 yards isn´t all that important, although I´ll certainly try to maximize the precision once I have the gun, because that´s part of the fun.

We´ll see if someone will come along and talk me out of the Smith and in to something else. Also, there´s still the small matter of what´s out there and for sale.

Anders Olsson


As long as the Smith is a sound gun with a good bore, you should have no trouble getting 2" groups @ 50 yards with the correct load and the right bullet. The plastic ( actually not neoprene ) cases are resonably durable. If you will be shooting 200 rounds per year 50 cases should last at least 2 or 3 years. You can also get brass cases for the Smith. The only thing to be aware of with the brass cases is that they almost have to be made for the gun they are going to be shot in. It is not a "one size fits all" deal.

Swede68
01-09-2009, 07:16 PM
Okey, I take it then that the brass casing can´t be "fireformed" to a perfect fit for the actual gun like is done with some modern cartridges.
Doesn´t matter though, plastic is just fine, and cheap(ish), as long as it makes the gun go "boom" and spits lead in the general direction of the target. I understand that the original cases for the Smith were Gutta perkha rubber (correct?), so plastic is authentic enough.

Really looking forward to this, hope to hear from my contact early or mid next week.

You guys have been great, I really aprecciate it! If anyone comes up with any thoughts, ideas or advice that hasn´t allready been brought up, then please post them.

Anders Olsson

John Holland
01-09-2009, 07:39 PM
Fletcher,

I'm curious, why do you call the Black Smith Tubes "plastic"?

John

shilohzowie
01-09-2009, 08:07 PM
Fletcher,

I'm curious, why do you call the Black Smith Tubes "plastic"?

John I thought they were polypropylene?

Ken Hansgen, 11094
01-09-2009, 08:36 PM
Well, whatever they are, polypropylene or whatever, they are a kind of black plastic to me, too. And, Swede, I go along with recommending the Smith with the black PLASTIC tubes as being the simplest and easiest to reload and shoot. The brass tubes are far too thick to expand in the chamber and seal off gases, but I think the black PLASTIC tubes do. And they are cheap! Just get an original Smith in good condition and you should have no trouble. The repops may need some more work, as the metal in the receiver, I'm told, is somewhat softer inside the case hardened exterior.

RangerFrog
01-09-2009, 09:59 PM
Anders, I know this has been mentioned before, but the Maynard fits your criteria quite well also, and with the effort you are expending (not to mention the money) you might wish to consider it as well. The Maynard breaks open forward like a shotgun, and the cartridge is just like a modern one with two exceptions, the external priming with a percussion cap that sends flame to a flash hole in the base, and the large diameter of the rim to make manual extraction easy. They were highly prized by those who used them during our Civil War, and seem to have been accurate, durable and user friendly under a variety of conditions.

I picked one up for the first time and shot a team match with it... no fuss, no muss, no bother, and am in the process of having my one of my own rebuilt now. Cases are available in original brass, reduced capacity brass (for plinking or target use) and the same poly-plastic type mentioned for others of the carbine models. Reloading couldn't be any easier, and manipulation of the carbine is very natural for anyone who has shot a modern shotgun.

There are lots of folks on this board with more experience in these things than me, but this is my quick take for what it is worth. Your mileage, as they say, may vary!

Regards,
Charlie Shaeff
aka RangerFrog

Edwin Flint, 8427
01-09-2009, 11:34 PM
One indication of the multiple "quirks" is that there are 5 models of it that progressively altered not only the operation of the Burnside but the appearance of the weapon over a short period of time.

The fifth model is the best of the bunch, still, it has had a few things I have seen more than once that bothered me. These were extraction problems, Gas leakage, and Sear springs breaking.

The Burnside quirks were more or less managable for the ocassional shooter but as a regular shooter, made me look other directions. As for accuracy, the Burnsides I have seen usually performed pretty well.

As John said, the expense of the brass is also a negative.

Good luck with the hunt for the ideal carbine.

pastore
01-09-2009, 11:38 PM
Fletcher,

I'm curious, why do you call the Black Smith Tubes "plastic"?

John

John, actually the tubes are nylon. Plastic is just a generic term for the polymers.

Swede68
01-10-2009, 07:54 AM
Thanks guys, plenty of good info here!

I just thought of a question that I should have asked earlier. As you allready know, I´m looking for a nice shootable carbine. I don´t care too much about original blue/casehardening remaining, or small patches of blackpowder splash on the exterior, but it needs to be in excellent working condition with a sound bore. Of corse, the more blue and casehardening remaining the better, but I think you see my point.
What is the aproximate pricerange ("from X$ to Y$") I should expect for a shootable:
Sharps
Smith
Maynard
Burnside

Regards!
Anders Olsson

RangerFrog
01-10-2009, 10:02 AM
Anders,

Since I have been in the market recently for a Maynard, I'll "start the show" by saying that a good shooter that is cosmetically OK but not pretty (What we call a "brown gun") will probably run anywhere from the $1000 range to as high as $2500 for a pretty nice one. This is for the 2nd Model, which is more often seen for sale. The 1st Model (which is tape primed but can use regular musket caps) will run at least twice that price range, at least in my experience.

One nice aspect about the originals is that you can change the barrel with a minimum of work and have a really good shooter. Several folks are making barrels at quite reasonable rates. As far as maintenance, they seem about as reliable as a freight train... they just keep on going! Hope this will be of help to you.

Regards,
Froggie

Swede68
01-10-2009, 10:16 AM
It helps a lot, thanks!

Regards
Anders Olsson

Edwin Flint, 8427
01-10-2009, 10:57 AM
I have seen prices range this range:

Maynards: Model 1 $3,000-8,000.
Model 2 $1,200.- 3,500.

Smiths: $1,200.-5,000.

Sharps: $1,800-7,500.

Burnsides $1,200-8,000.

If you don't like the Sharps, I would go with the Smith or Maynard Model 2. There are a few others out there that are not as common you might want to look over. Gallaghers, Merrils, Cosmopolitans, etc. There are even more if you can legally own cartridge guns such as the Ballards, Henry, Spencers, etc.

You might want to order a Flayderman's Antique American Firearms. It would be a very good reference and give you an overview of the various models and price ranges. He tends to run a little high side on his prices but it would give you a starting point. Cost is $35-50. Well worth the price.

Swede68
01-10-2009, 01:09 PM
Thanks Edwin!
I´ve allready got the Flaydermans guide, not the latest issue though. However, I´ve somehow misplaced it (I believe I lent it to someone, stupid! :roll: ) so I intend to buy the latest one anyway. But the last time I bought the Flaydermans Guide (directly from him) it took almost a full month to get to me, so I´m not willing to hold out until I get a new copy.

It´s not that I don´t like the Sharps, quite the contrary, I like it a lot. It´s more a matter of practical nature. The more moving parts, the more that can go wrong. And my experience is that if something can go wrong, it usually does! :lol:
As I´ve explained, I intend to shoot this carbine, but it won´t be very often. If I find the time to shoot it 5 or 10 times a year, that would be splendid. With that in mind, I don´t want to have any problems, or too much cleaning to do. Whenever I have the time for it, I want to be as sure as possible that it will function without too much fiddling about.

Even so, the Sharps is still on the list.

I can legally own a gun for self contained cartridges even though they require a permit here. I have permits for several modern guns, pistols revolvers and rifles. The problem is twofold, first and foremost, if I get any more guns requiring a permit, I will need to get another full size guncabinet (I allready have two large safes). I live in a quite restricted space, and my dog wouldn´t aprecciate if her bed was replaced with a safe! :lol:
The second problem is that the more guns (requiring permits) I get, the harder it is to state reasons for yet another permit. If I was to apply for another permit now, I would probably have to "trade" it for one of my allready existing permits, which I´m not willing to do.
Thus, it has to be an original/antique percussion breachloader, because that´s something that the authorities don´t care about.

I intend to spend somewhere between 1000 and 2500$ on this, which suggests that I should be able to find a nice shootable specimen of either type, and definitely a Sharps or Maynard.

Regards!
Anders Olsson

RaiderANV
01-10-2009, 06:49 PM
Swede68 said: "The Burnside has a serious look to it, so while not as sleek and beautiful as the Smith, and not as "typical" as the Sharps, it´s definitely on the list. "

Beautiful as the Smith?!?!? LOL! next thang ya know Ken will show up and have him thinkin' the starr is better then a Maynard at holding up Tomatoes!! Wait,,,it is :roll:

If your looking for a work of Art that even God had a lot of input during it's Creation,,,,,then look to the Light,,,,,,and a MAYNARD carbine.

Doesn't get any easier when it comes to loading or function.

Swede68
01-10-2009, 07:01 PM
LOL, Pat, you know what they say. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! :lol:

I actually like the Maynard, and what little I have found written about it (both here and on the net in general) suggests that it actually IS a very good candidate for the kind of gun I´m looking for.
But it lacks a piece of wood under the barrel in my humble opinion (and I´m talking strictly esthetically now).

But I would like to make it clear that I´m not yet ruling anything out, not the Maynard, not the Sharps. It all comes down to what my friend on your side of the pond has, or can get for me, plus what other propositions I get (I´ve received e-mails from a couple of gentlemen with Carbines for sale. I´ve yet to receive pictures or a price though).

Anders Olsson

RangerFrog
01-10-2009, 08:03 PM
Anders, is it required by law that you have a military carbine, or just an antique to satisfy the requirement without needing a special permit? I'll bow to the superior knowledge of Pat and others, but I believe there were fore ends on some of the civilian percussion Maynard rifles. As previously stated, you could have the military carbine with a .50 cal barrel (which is 20" long) for instance, and an extra barrel, say the .36 cal for which brass and plastic shells are both available, in the longer 26" version, and put a splinter fore end on it, and voila! you have two rifles for the price of one! Very few moving parts, very little to break, did I mention they are cool and shoot well?

Froggie

Swede68
01-10-2009, 08:24 PM
Only requirements by law for a gun to not need a permit in Sweden is that it has to be manufactured before 1890, and that it doesn´t use a gassealed self contained cartridge (case, primer, propellant and projectile).

However, I´m mainly interested in military firearms, or at least firearms of military type. Not all of my revolvers have military acceptance stamps for instance, but each and every one of them is of a make and model that saw action as a primary or secondary martial weapon.

I don´t need a wooden forend for shooting comfort, it´s just that the Smith with it´s sleek "classic" look has more of a traditional apearance with its wooden forend.
If I get a Maynard (which is very much a possibility), I want it to look like a Maynard of the Civil War if you get my drift. Good suggestion though, if it was only the apearance or the comfort of a wooden forend I was after.

As a matter of fact, even though I said I didn´t expect there to ever be more than one breachloading carbine in my collection, I´m getting more and more intrigued by them. I´ve given it some thought thought, and I may get at least two carbines after all. At least, I´m not quite as sure anymore that one will have to be sufficient.
So it´s not impossible that I end up with more than one type of carbine.
Ahh well, we´ll see what happens... :lol:

Anders Olsson

RangerFrog
01-10-2009, 10:05 PM
One last thing, and I'll quit "bending your ear." There was a paperback book published recently (at least less than a year ago... it takes me a while to get to them! :P ) called something like Civil War Carbines. IIRC, it was pretty reasonably priced, and just reading it over and over let me experience in a vicarious way all of the common and some not-so-common carbines used during "the late unpleasantness." If you would like to know more about it, PM me and I'll send full title, ISBN, etc so you can track it down. With the interest you have shown, it would almost certainly bring you a great deal of reading pleasure. 8)

Regards,
Charlie Shaeff
aka RangerFrog

Swede68
01-11-2009, 03:39 AM
PM sent Charlie!

Regards!
Anders Olsson

Swede68
01-25-2009, 05:26 AM
Gentlemen, I´ve found and bought my Civil War carbine. I ended up buying a Smith.
Just wanted to say thanks for all your help in this matter!

I´ll probably be bothering you with questions regarding optimizing accuracy and so on later on.

Now, if it would only get here quickly!

Regards!
Anders Olsson

http://usera.ImageCave.com/Grinolle/Smith%201.JPG
http://usera.ImageCave.com/Grinolle/Smith%202.JPG
http://usera.ImageCave.com/Grinolle/Smith%206.JPG
http://usera.ImageCave.com/Grinolle/Smith%205.JPG

RangerFrog
01-25-2009, 08:42 AM
Looks like you're getting a nice one! I hope you will enjoy it.

Froggie

Swede68
01-25-2009, 08:44 AM
Thanks! I´m sure I will!

Regards!
Anders Olsson

David Disher 12143
01-26-2009, 04:23 PM
Anders:

Congratulations on what looks like a great find. Enjoy your Smith.

David Disher
110th OVI
12143

Swede68
01-26-2009, 06:15 PM
Thanks David!
I´m sure I will enjoy it very much. I just wish it was here allready! :lol:

Best regards!
Anders Olsson

Swede68
01-30-2009, 03:14 PM
The Smith arrived today. It´s absolutely wonderful. The bore looks like it´s new, the receiver has strong (only slightly faded) case coloring, the barrel has 100% blueing without any significant wear. The wood is smooth and nice, however I believe someone has applied a few layers of oil to it, it´s a bit too shiny.
Wonder if I dare to cut the oil, and what to use?

In a few days I´ll be placeing an order for cases and bullets, in a couple of weeks I should be able to test out the gun.

And if anyone wonders, yes I am happy! :lol:

Thanks to everyone who has helped me out here.

Best regards!
Anders Olsson

RangerFrog
01-30-2009, 04:47 PM
Now when you get the inspiration to come over to Ft Shenandoah and shoot it with its brethren, know that you have a standing invitation to hang out with the 1st Valley Rangers! Glad it all worked out for you.

Froggie

Swede68
01-30-2009, 06:22 PM
Thanks!
If I ever do find myself on your side of the pond, I will most definitely try and pay you a visit. While I doubt I will be travelling to the USA with the Smith (or any of my other guns for that matter), just hanging out with people who share my fascination with these antique guns would be great!

Best regards!
Anders Olsson