Reenacters vs shooters

[NJCOP]

Visited an encampment with my grandkids this weekend. One in a blue and one in a grey cap. The six year old got called a traitor for wearing the grey one which the little guy laughed. Of course that brought the comment out of me that the winners write the history books. Two guys laughed and one guy seemed taken back. I truly enjoy learning about the players on both sides of the entrenchments and have been open to a whole new understanding of the conflict. Some folks who we were taught were heros in school weren't really and some of the so called bad guys we really some pretty darn decent folks.

As to the point of the post, being a shooter, like you folks, I 've been learning and delving into the weapons history of the arms of the WBTS. I thought that would probably be the case with most reenacters. I was really surprised when a visitor asked if the pistol used during the CV was a 45 Colt and the folks agreed. I tactfully interjected that there were a couple of others used such as the 61 Colt and 58 Remington as well as a couple of others that played a lesser role. I had mentioned that I came upon an original Enfield Foraging musket in 95% condition that I bought on GunBroker thinking it was a 53 Enfield Reproduction and nobody had an idea what a foraging musket was.

I can't wait to get some more knowledge unter the old lid, buy some Brogans and apply for an armorors position. I'm learning to roll my own. With your guys help I've got a few shooting issues resolved and by golly one day I'll have the cash for a decent PH 58 Enfield. I guess with that piece I'll probably have to be wearing grey. Won't go over well in NJ. Can anybody swing me over to the North with a recommendation of a good Springfield repro? Are the Colt repos worth looking at?

[matt]

Enfields were used by both sides. Do the research on the unit you want to enlist in. Right now the only Springfield on the market is the armisport. There are custom musket makers but since Euroarms went out of business that leaves the Armisports until Pedersoli gets into production and distribution.
Mack

[Southron Sr.]

There was no such thing as a "45 Colt" during the War of Northern Aggression. Colts came in two main calibers: .36 & .44

It wasn't until 1873 when the U.S. Army adopted the "Single Action Army" in (what we call today) the .45 Long Colt did the ".45 Colt" come into existence.

Re-enactment units generally require that their members use "3 barrel band length" rifle muskets. Now, if you are looking around for a good Skirmish arm, I highly recommend "rifles," i.e., "2 barrel band length" arms because they are 6 inches SHORTER than the three barrel band arms.

This means that every time you load your arm in Skirmish competition there is 6 inches LESS of barrel you have to push a Minie Ball down and 6 inches LESS of barrel from which you have to withdraw your ramrod. Since Skirmishing is a "Rapid Fire/Hit what you shoot at Game" any way you can increase your rate of fire is a GOOD thing!

While most quality .577 and 58 caliber arms are about equal in accuracy out to 600 yards, the clear winner past 600 yards is the P-58 Enfield Naval Rifles and the P-60 Enfield Short Rifles. The originals employed a 5 land and groove barrel, Progressive depth rifling with a 1 in 48" twist.

Only the Parker-Hale replica Enfield P-58 Naval Rifles came with barrels that matched the originals in range and accuracy. Unfortunately, Parker-Hale went out of business many years ago, so their Naval Rifles are getting harder and harder to find.

So, If you want to get a Great rifle for Skirmishing-get a Parker-Hale P-58 Naval Rifle, have it glass bedded, do a lock job and get it "Sighted In." You will be mighty pleased with its accuracy!

[Southron Sr.]

Dear NJCOP:

Contrary to popular opinion the North actually purchased MORE Enfields than the South during the 'Late Unpleasantness Between the States.' This inclides 2 band Enfields.

The difference is thanks to the industrial output of Northern factories, by 1864 most Yankee units were turning in their well used Enfields for brand new, contractor made Springfields.

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

Southron is of course correct on all his points, BUT, if winning is your goal, you might want to look at the Federal issue rifles. That seems to be what the majority of top finishing units are using. The reason is, I beleive, due to the noticeably different butt stock geometry. Many find the Enfield to have too high a comb for comfortable shooting. Not trying to start anything, just my $.02.

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

But 2-band Enfields have a more adjustable ladder-type rear sight, and the old English-made Parker-Hales were superb, with other makes almost as good. Of course, other muskets also have ladder sights, but not 1861 and later Springfields. With them, a peep sight is advisable, but that takes some careful gunsmithing.

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

See John Doyle's post re. the "PH 2-Band Enfield (REDUCED)" on the "Wanted/For Sale Items" page. That's a good deal!

[NJCOP]

Has anyone heard anything on the newer Italian made Parker Hales? the one that's on this site will probably be gone by the time I come up with the cash. I'm trying to sell a Rem 700 Varmint to fund my next purchase. So I am trying to keep some options open.

[Southron Sr.]

Dear NJCOP:

If your heart is set on a Parker-Hale P-58 Enfield, keep an eye on the "Buy-Sell-Trade" page of this BB. Also, check the larger gun auction websites like "Gunbroker" for you will see P-H Naval Rifles advertised for auction on a fairly regular basis.

When Euroarms went under, Pedersoli purchased their tooling for not only their Springfields and Richmonds, but also the Euroarms Enfields. Pedersoli will have their version of the P-58 Enfield in production by next Spring or early Summer. My bet is that the Pedersoli P-58 Naval Rifle will be the BEST of all modern reproductions simply because Pedersoli produces the "Rolls Royces" of replica firearms.

Have you shot a two band Enfield yet? For some shooters, the Enfield stock is too "Straight," but a lot of other shooters have no problem shooting Enfields. One "trick" that can be used to "effectively increase the drop of the Enfield stock" is to set up your Enfield with a high front sight and then "Sight In" your Enfield where it is "Dead On" for 50 yards with the ladder rear sight sitting of the second step of the rear sight.

[NJCOP]

Southern Sr.

Got a Pederosi. My Great Plains Rifle is by them and its well made. As for the Enfield stock. I have an original 3 Band Foraging musket and that gun fits well if its any indication. Shooting trap, I'm use to high combs. Any idea on the current Italian Parker Hales. I've read that the old PH Musketoon with a 1-48 twist which I'm told is a shooting. That was the English made gun. I haven't heard anything on how the Italian one's shoot. I'm probably going to be patient and hold out for a Brit gun and not be disatisfied.

NJ

[Blair]

NJ,

The original 3 band (39 inch barrel) Enfield was set up with a 1-78 rate of twist.
The Rifle, (33 inch barrel) is faster, something like 1-66, and the carbine/musketoon, (24 inch barrel) is 1-48
These are the rates of twist Parker-Hale worked to emulate.
The Italian made Enfield used 1-72 on the 3 band arms (same as was used on their copies of American made arms) Rifles and carbines will remain approximately the same for muzzle loading arms.
Arms made by Parker-Hale that were finished by the Italians (after PH went belly up) will retain the PH name on the barrel and will have PH rifling standards. As those PH finished parts run out, The Italians will replace these parts with their variations as the parts, but without the PH markings.
It can all be quite confusing.
Pedersoli, as I understand it, will be going back to things like the original rate of twist with the Enfield rifling. We will just have to wait and see to be sure.
Hope this helps,
Blair

[mikea]

About Reenactors vs. Skirmishers:
The reenactments are fun to watch and look at. Think you will also enjoy attending a N-SSA Skirmish where we do live fire ("real bullets") at targets. You will find out a lot about shooting Civil War guns from folks there - more than you could find out in the same amount of time any other way.
There are N-SSA units in your area - jusk ask online here for when/where there are skirmishes and you will get replies.
If there is any way you can get to Winchester, VA Oct 7-9 for the N-SSA Fall Nationals, you will get to see live firing of everything from revolvers through mortars and field artillery. Also, lots of sutlers selling all sorts of good stuff we use, lots of folks to talk to & get opinions from, etc.
As Southron mentioned, most reenactment units require their members to use 3 band rifle muskets. This is for shooting in ranks, where the rear rank fires over the shoulder of the person in the front rank. A 3 band sticks out far enough not to give the guy in the front rank a blast in the face. Skirmishers use both 2 & 3 band guns, but as others have mentioned, a lot of us like the 2 bands for the quicker loading in the timed team events we shoot. The Springfield vs Enfield stock designs are a matter of personal preference as to what fits an individual. Their rear sight type & location are another issue.
In this area many (if not most/all) reenactment units heavily discourage or forbid their members from doing live fire with the guns they use for reenacting. They are in great fear of having part of a bullet stuck in the barrel- for example, the skirt of a minie bullet - that can come out in a reenactment firing blanks and hit someone. There have been instances of this down here and needless to say, they don't want more. There was a nasty case of this at a Gettysburg reenactment several years ago involving a revolver, as I recall.
Another issue is musket front sights. The authentic front sight usually shoots too high and has to be replaced with a taller one for the 50 & 100 yd shooting done in N-SSA skirmishes. They are usually put in a dovetail so they can be drifted for windage correction - something that can't be done with the authentic front sights. This results in the inability to mount a socket bayonet - something a gun used for reenactment should have if it uses that type of bayonet.
If you are looking at a used repro gun, a fast way tell what it was used for is to look at the front sight: If it has the authentic front sight, it's most likely a reenactor gun, but if it has a taller front sight in a dovetail, its been used for skirmishing.