Conical bullets in a smoothbore??

[Dan Greketis 4914V]

What do the rules state for what bullets can be used in a smoothbore? I would be willing to wager that just about anything was shot out of them during the war.

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

17.1.1 SMOOTHBORE PROJECTILES
Projectiles for smoothbore matches shall be round ball only. In a smoothbore
firearm, the ball may be wrapped with aluminum foil, with or without grease;
but the use of patches, paper or cloth, or over-powder wads or plastic wads is
prohibited.

[Dan Greketis 4914V]

Thank you Joe. Just what I was looking for.

But let me ask; why?? You know darn well if out of ammo the man with no ammo had no problem stuffing a buddies .58 minie down the bore.

For the sake of authenticity I don't shoot a Zouve. You know, the rifle that was never used during the war but seems to show up quite frequently on the skirmish line :roll:

[Maillemaker]

It is what it is. N-SSA shooting is not historically accurate. For example, as I understand it the South tended to shoot their .58 caliber bullets paper patched. This is not allowed in the N-SSA.

Steve

[ms3635v]

Steve wrote, "It is what it is. N-SSA shooting is not historically accurate. For example, as I understand it the South tended to shoot their .58 caliber bullets paper patched. This is not allowed in the NSSA."


Steve,

Due to issues the Confederate Army encountered with ammunition, Confederate soldiers used different types of ammunition that included .577 Enfield ammuntion and .58 caliber ammunition, as well as .54 caliber ammunition in the firearms tried by some soldiers with poor results. Soldiers encountered difficulty loading the Enfield ammuntion because they tried to load it with the cardboard cartridge casing that contained the Enfield round. Lee had to issue an order telling the soldiers not to load the Enfield ammunition with the stiff, outer paper covering... they were told to pour the powder, remove the bullet, ram the minie and discard the stiff paper outer covering. In addition, the Confederate Army attempted to ensure that minie balls with a diameter of .565 were issued to the soldiers so they could load these rounds with the paper they were manufactured with and be fired in the Enfield rifles/rifle muskets and the .58 caliber Springfield rifle muskets.. The Union Army had the advantage of being issued Williams Cleaner bullets to scrape the fouling from the bore, allowing them to fire more rounds before cleaning their muskets. See Joseph Glatthaar's book "General Lee's Army," for a discussion in chapter 21 that addresses arms and ammunition (pages 258 through 267).

[Maillemaker]

Thanks for the information. I'm assuming the British fired their bullets paper patched, since the ends of the cartridge were dipped in lube?

Steve

[Eggman]

The N-SSA us a shooting organization, not a reeacting organizatiion. The first priority is safety. Accidents are next to unheard of at skirmishes. The second priority is healthy competition; there is a notable lack of the cut-throat competition often found in modern matches -- but somehow we produce the best shooters in the world anyway. The N-SSA oozes good sportsmanship.
As to authenticity, the goal is to look right. We have uniform competitions for the thread counters. As to the firearms, most if not all of us are fascinated by the very innovative arms Civil War era manufacturers produced. We like to shoot them all. The Zouave is a well designed musket. It was produced during the war. Same with the marvelous Rogers and Spencer revolver. We know the Army bought these firearms during the war. To deny their use because documentation of their use in the field is lacking denys our members the opportunity to enjoy them on the N-SSA firing line. Why would a SHOOTING ORGANIZATION like ours do that?? Remember, to the N-SSA, if just one guy took a certain gun to the field during the war, it's made the cut. Also, from another angle, if documented presence of a firearm on the Chickamauga battlefield makes it authentic, does documented presence of a firearm at the Springfield armory make it inauthentic?
As to the round ball vs. conical thing, you're right, the N-SSA should allow you to shoot MINI BALLS out of your smoothbore. Your fellow competitors on the line will cheer you on. However those nice aerodynamic shotgun slugs that create their own spin weren't around then. You can't use those. I don't think your original argument that they fired about anything out of these guns extends to modern shotgun slugs. And there is also the concern for keeping the "playing field" even. NASCAR doesn't allow teams to use jet engines.
These are long hashed over N-SSA discussions. I'm sure some of the other folks have a different take on things.

[John Holland]

Eggman has stated: "...if just one guy took a certain gun to the field during the war, it's made the cut..."

Please read Section 14.1 of the N-SSA's Rules, "Those arms must have been manufactured...in quantities of at least 100 arms each."

Again he said: "As to the round ball vs. conical thing, you're right, the N-SSA should allow you to shoot MINI BALLS out of your smoothbore."

Please re-read what Joe Plakis posted previously about smoothbore ammunition, "17.1.1 SMOOTHBORE PROJECTILES, Projectiles for smoothbore matches shall be round ball only."

It is each competitors responsibility to know and abide by the N-SSA's Rules. The answer of "I didn't know that was a rule!" won't keep you from being penalized on the line for a rules infraction. The Rules are but a click away.

http://www.n-ssa.org/NATIONAL/RulesJan2011.pdf

JDH

[Blair]

Steve,

Might I suggest, "The British Soldier's Firearm, from smoothbore to small bore, 1850 - 1865". by Dr. C. H. Roads. (providing you can find it, and at a reasonable price.)
Dr, Roads discusses the evolution of the two piece Pritchet style P-1853 bullet design, and why it was changed from a bullet diameter of .562 to .550 dia. (think in terms of non uniformity in the paper thickness used for patching the bullet)
There is a lot of good reading on the British made firearms of the ACW time period. However, you will need to hunt and peck to find the specific info within the text you may have an interest in related to 'our' History of this weapon.
I hope you find this helpful,
Blair

[Dan Greketis 4914V]

My reasoning for using a conical bullet is not for accuracy rather ease of loading because of filling the hollow base with lube. I have a .69 conical bullet mold (not a shotgun mold) that allows me to pack the cavity with lube and field testing by me has dertermined that loading is a breeze.

[Dan Greketis 4914V]

But while we are at it, were there wad cutters back in the day??

[Eggman]

Dean Thomas's "Ready... Aim... Fire: Small Arms Ammunition in the Battle of Gettysburg" illustrates a number of very squat .69 minies, much like a wadcutter, that were battlefield pickups at Gettysburg. He says are/were commonly referred to as "shotgun slugs." He attributes them to North Carolina troops. The fired specimens flattened out almost to round ball configuration.

[Eggman]

One last comment, I found two of these critters in my bullet collection. One has an extremely shallow base cavity, the other a very deep triangular cavity. Both have one grease groove. They are both very roundish. I can't help but wonder if the Confederate ordnance folks were looking for a bullet that would perform in both rifles and smoothbores in the old .69 caliber, thereby greatly simplifying ammunition resupply. These squat things would surely fly truer and further than a keyholing elongated ball, and might be the equal of the ubiquitous round ball.

[matt]

Ok I dont dispute that roundball only for smoothbore matches. Could you use say a Rapine semi wadcutter if you use say a 42 3 band smoothbore in the Sunday musket match? Or would that have to be round ball only?
Matt
Winslow's Battery D 1st NY Lt Artillery 9775v

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

So, If the membership wants to also shoot minies in their smooth bores, we must first approach our team commander, ask him to have his Regions Commander write the N-ssa Boaed to request this change. Then at the next National Board meeting it will be addressed? Is this correct? Thanks for your response

[Southron Sr.]

If I recall correctly, there was an invention called a "Nessler Bullet" that was designed to be shot from a smoothbore musket and provide better accuracy and range than a round ball.

I have mentioned this before on this BB, but this is an interesting story:

Back in the 1970's Colonel Lindsey P. Henderson, who owned Factor's Walk Military Museum in Savannah asked my then wife to repair one of the militia uniforms from the 1850's he owned.

The coatee was made out of blue, wool broadcloth and what made it interesting was that it was "Double Breasted" and must have 50 or more pewder buttons on it. There were rows of bottons on the front of the coatee, buttons on the sleeves and even buttons on the coat tails!

What impressed me about the buttons was that they were HEAVY. Obviously they were solid castings and round except for a small flat spot on the back from where a wire "button eye" protruded that allowed the button to be sewn on to the coatee.

As there were no mould or seam marks on the buttons, it was obvious to me that they had been cast in a special mould and then polished until casting seam disappeared.

Suddenly "inspired" I went and got a set of calibers and measured the diameter of a button.

ALL OF THE BUTTONS WERE ABOUT .65 CALIBER!!!

Then it became clear to me. If our soldier was running low on ammo for his .69 Smoothbore musket, all he had do was have some powder and then "pluck" a button from his coatee, load it into his musket and shoot it at the enemy!

So, I guess that those buttons were "dual purpose" buttons!!!!

Who would have ever thought! And now you know WHY some of those militia coatees had so many buttons-SPARE AMMO!

Keep that in mind for the next time you look at an old, faded photograph of a militia member posing wearing his militia uniform with lots and lots of buttons on it.