Key holing minnies

[NJCOP]

I'm not new to muzzle loading but I am new to WBTS guns. As I'm rewriting this post due to an errant key stroke, War and Peace is getting abbreviated.

I have a Miruko Zoave that I bought to start shooting with fully knowing they weren't used during the war but Miruko does make good guns and its what I could afford before going on the hunt for a PH Enfield which has turned out to be something of a circus.

"If Bilgewater Bob is out there. I apologize for wasting your time and regret doing so as the other gun owner backed out of the deal and I now have a big fat nothing in my gun locker where your PH could have been sitting."

Getting back to the key holing, I went to the range today with my home cast Lee Minnies and my home rendered beef tallow and bees wax lube. I shot 6 rounds. One hit where it should have and the other five were all over God's green earth on a police qualification target at 25 yards. OMG Just to make sure the gun wasn't a total piece of crap I shot 3 round patched balls and they lumped into a real nice group with the one good minnie round.

I know that there are a dozen reasons why this could happen but on the way back from the range something hit me. When I lubed these minnies I dipped them in the lube and placed them on a piece of aluminum foil. There was a pretty thick coating of lube not only in the grooves of the bullets but also on the ridges. In fact when I pushed them in the barrel it was leaving a sizable amount of lube on the muzzle of the barrel. By any means possible did I overlube these bullets causing them to hydroplane down the barrel instead of engaging the lands and grooves or am I grabbing at straws? Not to sound idiotic but in general is the lube only suppose to be in the grooves? Would it being glunked on the ridges cause the key holing?

The lead that I'm using appeared to be pretty soft but I may need to do some extra heating to make sure any hardening additives that might have been added are eliminated. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

The most likely cause is hard lead, not your lube. It must be pure lead, not fairly soft. It also could be too small of a bullet for the bore size. You need to be about .002 under bore size. Since the gun shoots well with patched RB, one of these is the likely cause.

More heating will not bring the purity needed, unless you add some very nasty chemicals to the batch to bring it about. Then you will need a Haz Mat team to come clean up after you! :shock:

[Paul Lampman 263V]

You didn't mention your powder charge. The most often culprits of keyholing are too hard lead which won't expand reliably and undersized bullets which won't expand enough. Sometimes a little extra powder works wonders.

[matt]

NJ COP, where in NJ are you? Maybe if you are close we can try to figure out whats going on with your musket. I am in Staten Island.
Matt
Winslow's Battery D 1st NY LT Artillery

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

Yeah the one word I did not hear is "sized!" Do you size you bullets? Have you slugged your bore? The barrel might be marked but I have found more often that not it is wrong. As well as owning .575 molds that cast .580 bullets as well as .573! Hard lead, thick skirt and powder charge as also sometimes the culprit.

I know for me it had everything to do with bullet size. I have a barrel that is marked .577 that is actually a .580. I shot .575 out of it and had a shotgun effect! I still keep a cardboard cutout in my membership card as a token reminder of how bad I was due to a loose fitting round!
[attachment=0:21uddy2i]0803012155.JPG[/attachment:21uddy2i]

Muskets are like sportscars, in ways you need to fine tune them to get the best performance.

I know the Middle Atlantic Region has tons of people in Thee State of New Jersey, maybe I can help hook you up with one of them. Where abouts do you live.

I would also like to invite you out to a shoot to see what we do, we have a shoot in September in Springtown, Bucks County Pa. I would like to invite you as a guest to come out and see what we are about!

[Lou Lou Lou]

Minies keyhle for several reasons as stated. The underlying reason is the bullet not getting enough spin. Either because it didn't expand and/or not enough powder. Unfortunately you have to work up the loads for each gun to determine the optimum load.

[Eggman]

You folks around New York City be careful. I hear some New Jersey folks just got ate by a bear.

[NJCOP]

I want ot thank you guys for the help and invites and would eventually like to take you up on it. I'm a Officer in a jersey Shore town and we generally have to wait until the Summer ends to resume our normal lives.

Regardng the lead harness, I can cut it with my fingernail if that's any indicator, for round ball its always been fine. Regarding the powder charge, all I had on hand was 2fg Triple Seven. I ran out of Goex shooting my Plains Rifle two weeks ago and haven't gotten back to my reloading supplier yet. I was using a 55 grain charge which is reduced from the normal 60gn black powder charge as T7 fires at slightly higher pressures and they recommend cutting back the charge by 15%. The rond balls were being shot with 70 grns. Regarding the skirts on the Lee Minnie balls. I couldn't tell you whether or not they would be considered thick or thin. I'm currently at work and don't have the ability to mic one of them or the bore.

If the skirt is the issue can anyone recommend a thinner skirted minnie mold? I picked up the Lee mold as they are a cheaper entry level mold that generally work well and when taken care of last for awhile.

Regarding the powder charge, I am not aware of how high I could go safely in these replicas to expand the skirt. My Lyman will go 110 grns, the CVA Mountain Rifle will take 90 and my Rem in-line will do even more though I never push them as its not needed and accuracy generally goes out the window. So if anyone has an idea of a general max load that I could work down from that would be helpful also.

As i mentioned the patched balls are working well but they are slow loading. I would like to make sure i can get this thing to shoot as I would like to send it out to have the front sight raised and am not going to spend the cash to do it unless this thing is a reasonable shooter.

I really do like the fact that when you pull the trigger on these War guns they go off with authority which isn't always the case with non- musket nipple guns.

[NJCOP]

Joe,

That's the pic. Thank you for the invite and if I can get out of state I'd really like to come out.

Bob R

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

Bob,
Your powder charge is a bit high. Most of us shoot about 45 or 50g of either FF or FFF. All the Lee minnies have a thin skirt. From what you have posted so far, it sounds like your lead is soft enough. I'm thinking the culprit is undersized bullets. Find a way to mike/plug gauge your bore and then make certain that your bullet is NO MORE than .002" undersize. You should be fine then.

[matt]

Bob,
Im on vacation late september to early october if you want hop on up the GSP and over the outerbridge and the range I belong to is only 5 min away. Also when using BP most in the N-SSA tend to use 3f in our muskets. Can you easily pinch the skirt of the minie closed? if so then yours are undersized. If you come up Ill cast up some minie's out of a .576 mold and we shall see how they do at 50 yds.
Matt

[Southron Sr.]

Dear NJCOP

Just to make sure we "cover all the bases," keep in mind that lead has a tendency to "Work Soften" which is exactly the opposite of steel which "Work Hardens."

Years ago I got some sheet lead from a scrap yard. I checked it with the old "Thumbnail Test" and sure enough, it was "Soft."

I cast the lead sheet into Minie Balls" and at the next Skirmish was dismayed when my Minies went everywhere except where they were supposed to go. Then I checked the Minie Balls with the old thumbnail and guess what? They were now HARD! When the lead sheeting was originally made, apparently it was run thru several sets of rollers, which "Work Softened" the final product.

When I melted the lead down and cast it into Minies-it turned "Hard" again.

For almost 40 years now I have been "Hot Dipping" my musket cartridges (loaded bottom out) in lube and then setting them on a piece of aluminum foil waiting for the lube to harden. The excess lube has never affected the accuracy of those rounds. REmember-lube is a "Good Thing."

The last "Base to Cover" is IF you have a "Skirt" (i.e. the bottom part of a Minie) stuck in your breech, that will cause subsequent shots to keyhole. That "Skirt" must be removed before accuracy will return. Also, a stuck "Skirt" can cause "Cook Offs."

"Skirts" can be found by running a cleaning rod down your barrel and feeling for one OR cleaning your barrel and then looking down it with a strong light illuminating your bore.

Get with some Skirmishers in your neck of the woods and they will help you solve the problem.

GOOD LUCK

WELCOME TO SKIRMISHING!

[bilge water bob]

Bob,

not to worry about the PH deal, the member i was selling it for decided to use it after all. He shot so poorly with his mississippi, he is fixing the sights and using it.

As for the key holes, I just spent a ton of time fine tuning my enfield, I got away from the traditional minie and started shooting a .578 hodgdon with 42 gr fffg, it's like night and day, the gun shoots great. Good luck, if you're going to change moulds, i may have a few you could use.

good luck!!

[John Bly]

Get some BLACK powder and try those minies. The Triple 7 does not have the impulse on the base of the bullet that black powder has and it won't expand the skirt. The bullet should be no more than .002 smaller than the bore. You'll see a drastic improvement when you shoot the real black powder instead of a substitute.

[Bill Weitz]

With respect to your powder charge, you need to consider what your using the gun for. If your hunting, a charge around 80gn is not unusual and in some state there is a minimum. If you shoot targets as we do 40 to 50gn is typical.
Your lube is fine, I push my bullets through a piece of pipe to scrape off the exess so I don't get that ball of wasted goo on the top of the barrel.
To get in the ball park with your size, you could press your patched ball in the mussel just enough to be able to pull it back out or ram it down and pull it back out with a screw puller. You should be able the see your rifleing and take a measurement. Not as good as haveing it checked with the correct tool, but it will give you an idea.

[rachbobo]

Something I heard of quite a while ago was that if there is a casting flaw or weakness in the skirt,
The Minie, expanded in the bore, as it exits the barrel. The weak part of the skirt can blow out.
Instead of the Minie losing contact with the bore evenly the blow out can cause the slug to tip at it exits.
Kind of like having a poorly crowned muzzle
I am mostly a round ball shooter so I can't speak from experience on the subject but I'm just passing along what I read some time back about odd ball quirks that can crop up when shooting a minie.

Bill Cheek

[NJCOP]

Well as it would happen I took the gun to the indoor range yestrday just long enough to tick off the Black gun guys with a little smoke. I ran the minnie down the barrel with the same charge as the patch and ball and walla the round is flying staight and true BUUUUUUUUUUUUT 70 gns is WAY TO MUCH and is only bandaging the problem. I'll probaly keep it for a hunting load.

I will be:

1. Picking up some Goex tonight.
2. Switching up my lead source. My friend is a plumber and he's throwing me some old lead toilet traps. These are soft lead. I was using crude Olin shot for this batch of balls so the hardness is probably a factor. That stuff will work well for casting my 40 cal psitol bullets.
3. I do have a mic and will be mic-ing the barrel. The rounds do go down the barrel easily but with the additional lube being on the bullet slows them a bit and maybe they are going down a little too easily. Lee makes a .578 Improved minnie ball mold that would solve this problem if it exist.

After I get these issues in line, the gun doesn't fire well, I'll be visiting with one of you guys. At least it shoots balls well enough! But man are these guns faster to shoot than my other sidelocks and with these eyes those musket caps are a blessing.

[sneezy]

Just a thought about that toilet trap lead - be careful to cut out and not use any part of the trap that's soldered. Solder used in these traps contained tin and tin will cause harder bullets than you want.

[matt]

NJCOP,
If you need some pure virgin lead after the summer is over i can give you some so you know its good to go.
Matt

[NJCOP]

Matt,

I'll take you up on that. I won't need alot to tell the difference. What I need is a supplier of decent lead.

Bob R

[Fred Jr]

If you are coming to the this week end Fort to catch the Allegheny regional Skirmish I can bring you some virgin lead. It is a bit costly at the present but it is as good as you can buy.

FredJr 12TH PA

[matt]

I got my lead from Fred and its really great stuff, but if you dont need much I still have some for you.
Matt

[NJCOP]

I'm in PA on Sunday but I'll be in Hatfield. Family obligation: mother in law's 70th birthday. I'll have to look into meeting up with you folks a little later.

One other quick question: I 'm going to have to either send my barrel away to have the front sight raised or with the Zouave I can purchase a front Sniper sight.

Does anyone have any experience with the sniper sights relating to their heights and point of impact when using them? 50 or 100 yards or would I be back at a 200 yard point of impact?

[matt]

NJ,
Can you silver solder? if so than its very simple to do. If you cant knock off the front sight of the musket than you can file or grind it down to where there is very little left of the base, get a taller competition type front sight from a sutler like S&S or Lodgewood and silver solder it place where the orig sight was. Then when you go to the range bring a propane torch with you so you can heat the front sight up and move the windage. once you have the windage set for 100 yds bring the target to 50 and if the round is low(as it should be) then file the front sight to raise the strike of the round. If you do windage at 50 when you move back to 100 you may find you are off. Hope this helps.
Matt

[NJCOP]

Okay,

Bout had enough of this Japanese wonder Zouave. To quote the classic comedy movie Airplane. "This guy is up, down, he's all over the place ... what an a--shole."

The gun shoots best with patch and ball and 60 gns of powder but it still is nothing to write home about. My Great Plains Rifle shoots about 1 to 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards. This Zouave comes no where near that and forget Minnie Balls. Some fly straight some key hole. I mic-ed the rounds and weighed hem prior to using them and they were all within 3 grains. Everything above and below went back into the melting pot and the lead is as soft as the Hornady balls which is soft.

Some of the issues with this gun is the darn barrel bands keep shooting loose after a few rounds. And that creates bedding issues. So I believe this puppy is going up on Gunbroker for what I can get for it. I'm going to put my money aside and buy a quality reproduction rather than dumping good money after bad in a reproduction that wasn't used in the WBTS. ENFIELD HERE I COME!

[Maillemaker]

Bout had enough of this Japanese wonder Zouave. To quote the classic comedy movie Airplane. "This guy is up, down, he's all over the place ... what an a--shole."

My Enfield, which I bought on Gunbroker, does the same thing. It's bore is also way oversize - .584".

I ordered a replacement barrel from Whitacre.

[NJCOP]

Does anyone know if filling the base of the bullet with lube helps expansion or am I just spitting in the wind?

[Maillemaker]

I don't know. I fill the base of my Lee Original Minies because the grooves are so shallow. Plus I don't like grabbing a slimy, slippery bullet.

But I have been told that filling the base with lube can result in the lube inconsistently staying stuck in the base of the bullet, which means you are shooting bullets of different mass, which means inconsistency in accuracy.

I have experimented with putting lube in the base of the bullet while painting the outside with Lee Alox Lube. But my biggest problem right now is I don't have a bullet well sized to my huge bore.

Steve

[matt]

Filling the base will not aid in expansion. Your Minnies are too small. The skirt will only open so much if you go to heavier powder charges you will risk blowing the skirt open too much which will kill the accuracy and possibly blow the skirt totally off the body of the minnie which leads to other problems like no accuracy and cook offs. What is the bore size of the musket? what are your minnies sized to? Dont give up on it if the rifiling is good they can be made to shoot. Basically most muskets in the N-SSA are bedded especially the repops it gives you better contact with the metal that is most of the time not there from the factory. Also makes the stock less likely to warp when it gets wet. You need to really get with one of us in the NJ NYC area so we can get you straight.
Matt

[NJCOP]

Took the time to carefully mic the bore; its oversized. A new minnie mold is on order. Enough for the Saki-bomb Zouave.

Going to buy an Enfield regardless, that's what I wanted when I started out. Another option I have is taking my .65 Patt 1859 Enfield 3 Band Native Infantry Musket and having Whitacre barrels make me a barrel and breechplug to replace the existing ones. The gun is identicle to a 3 bander with the exception of the smoothbore and fixed sights The only thing is this gun is in near new condition considering the gun is 150 years old and I'm waiting to affix a value on the gun. If its more valuable as a collector I'll sell it to a collector who appreciates it and use the money to buy a shooter. Any opinions? Here are a few pics of the gun:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =238590251 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=238590251)

Here are some pics of a similiar gun in a lesser condition:

http://www.northirishmilitaria.com/moreinfo.asp?id=213

As you can see its a Pattern 53 variant.

[ms3635v]

NJCOP,

Just a thought. My son-in-law was shooting a three band Springfield rifle-musket and was getting very erratic groups. So, we sent his barrel to Dan Whitacre who skillfully installed a new barrel on the breech from the the old barrel. The guns shoots extremely well with a .580 diameter Hodgdon bullet sized to .579 with 45 grains of 3f GOEX powder. The turn around time on this project was just about a month, and Dan cut a dovetail for the front sight which made adjustment for windage very simple. I can't say enough about Mr. Whitacre. I have bought six barrels from him for rifle-muskets that I have built and everyone has been exceptionally well-made and are extremely accurate. You may also want to consider having Bobby Hoyt do the work. Bob lives in Fairfield, PA, just a short drive from Gettysburg (he also has a shop at the Nationals). I also have the utmost respect for Bob, and his work is every bit as exceptional as Mr. Whitacre. I have seen Bobby Hoyt's reline's on Smith carbine barrels and they are unbelievable. We, in the N-SSA, are very lucky to have such talented gunsmiths available to us. Charlie Hahn also is a gunsmith extraodinare!