1855 Springfiels Pistol/Carbine

[rachbobo]

About 2 years ago I had Dan Whitacre make me a .58 cal barrel for a 1855 Springfield Pistol-Carbine I plan on building.
I started making the stock for the pistol but smewhere along the lines the project fell by the wayside.
The barrel is still hanging from a nail on the wall near my work bench next to the picture I'll use as a guide when I get started again.
Maybe a year from now if I ever get it done, would it be legal for use in a Carbine Match with the butt stock in place ?

Bill Cheek

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Bill:

Send John Holland a PM as he can answer your question. It would interesting to know IF the N-SSA has a "Spec Sheet" on a M1855 Pistol/Carbine. If it does, then to get your Pistol/Carbine "Approved" by the SAC, it must conform to the dimensions specified on the "Spec Sheet."

By the way, after Sam Colt delivered those Walker Revolvers to the army, the Ordnance Department wanted Colt to license his revolver patents to the government, so revolvers could be manufactured at Springfield Armory. Colt said emphatically: "NO!" The M1855 Pistol/Carbine was the best the Ordnance Department could do without infringing on Colt's patents.

Colt retaliated by coming out with the "4 Screw Dragoons," i.e., revolvers that used a detachable stock suprisingly similar to the stock the Ordnance Department designed for the M1855 Pistol/Carbine!

My point: The M1855 Pistol/Carbine was a result of Colt and the Ordnance Department butting heads. Colt won that one by a long way because the government had to buy their revolvers from Colt as long as his patents were in force.

[rachbobo]

Thanks,
Along with all my other projects I'm going to have to get started again on it. I might be bold enough to try to make my own version of the Maynard Tape Priming system using Musket Caps.
Another question I wonder about is if there are any shoots using the .52 cal single shot US Model 1836 and 1842 pistols made by Waters, Johnson, Aston and others.
I know they are not as sexy as Colts Remingtons and others. But I'm sure that not every unit on either side had "Modern" weaponry at the outbreak of hostilities, and many officers carried the single shot into battle till they were replaced.

Bill Cheek

[Southron Sr.]

Geeze!!!! At one time I had an original M1842 pistol but it never occurred to me that I could use it in a Skirmish. I considered it "5 Shots SHORT" for the pistol team matches!

[rachbobo]

Possibly if enough interest were to develope single shot pistol matches could be put on the list just like the Carbine and Musket matches
I have a few I'd like to let Bark again.

Bill Cheek

[William H. Shuey]

There is some history for this. Many years ago there was a skirmisher who had one of these and was shooting it in matches. He had been injured in some kind of accident and was handicapped to the point that he couldn't handle a full sized weapon. He had acquired the pistol/carbine and had been given permission to compete with it. I believe he was in a wheelchair too.

Bill Shuey

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

I'm five foot ten and I shoot a Richmond Carbine, and from time to time have been told I get "over" the muzzle. I have seen people taller than me do the same, as well as shorter ones. My only concern is with idea that the butt-plate of the gun must be on the ground, I cannot see how you would load it without blowing out your back or just camping out over top of the muzzle. If I can figure out how to do that I would love to build one of these.

The second is with such a short site radius you would have to hold it like a rock, even being a little off would be huge miss at 50 let alone 100!

If anyone has a pattern for one I would love still to see it! Or a good repro to copy.

[RaiderANV]

Many many moons ago I shot a Austrian Cavalry carbine (14" barrel .709 dia) in the team carbine matches a few times. At 50 yards I could put them in the same hole. At 100 yards I was lucky to keep them within the whole dang frame. I used the Lyman shotgun slug and 35 grains of 3F Goex. The lil' sucker is a blast. I loaded it on my knee so there was no leaning over the barrel.

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Joe, It was for that reason (getting over the muzzle) that the CWSA allows a 10" "carbine stool" to be used to put the butt of a musketoon on that lifts the muzzle to the height of a 2-band rifle's. It's also a lot more comfortable for those with a bad back! I once proposed the N-SSA allow the use of a "carbine stump" for the same reason, but got laughed at. Charlie Smithgall, however, said it could be ruled OK as it was just an extension of the ground. However, I stopped pursuing it as I had switched to using a Smith. BTW, the current rule requires the butt to be on the ground OR ON YOUR TOE.

Pat, How did you load that on your knee? Standing or kneeling?

[efritz]

Sirs.

This was all brought up a year or so ago about the pistol/carbines. It's in the rules as to why not. To be able to shoot one in competition, the rules will have to be changed as necessary.

The single shot pistol was also an idea that may surface again someday. Probably not team competition but at least just individual competition. I can see no reason why the N-SSA would not allow single shot individual competition. It would be a money making event. No extra time to fit into the schedule. Just some medals based on entries and some more targets to be sold and scored by stat. The only agg. I would consider is the single shot pistol agg. Don't have it count towards any other aggs.

[rachbobo]

Joe,
I assume the rules require the bottstock be on the ground when loading.
Would the rules allow squatting or kneeling to load like when volley fire is used by 2 or more ranks.
The one I'm working on has a Whitacre barrel and I'm carving the stock and building the lockplate.
I found a place called The Rifle Shoppe that can supply the brass parts like Buttcap, Back Strap, Trigger Guard, Buttplate etc.
I ordered a hammer for a 1855 rifled musket, tumbler and a few other internals from DGW.
I'll use a Remington 1855 as a template when I make the lock plate and Maynard Tape Primer System.
It's going to be a long term project buy as Roger Miller sand in the song You Can't Rollerskate in a Buffalo Herd,
All you have to do is put your mind to it
Knuckle down Buckle down Do It Do It Do It

Bill Cheek

[John Holland]

Well said Eric.

I, too, am a proponent of single shot pistol matches. I spoke with the National Statistics Officer and his Deputy on this very subject and they said it wouldn't be a problem for them to add the match, or score the targets. You are certainly correct that it would add much needed revenue to our coffers and the cost of medals is negligible. Perhaps we should try proposing it again. Although it's too late to be added to the Agenda Packet for the August Board meeting, it could be done for the January Board meeting.

JDH

[John Holland]

Mr. Cheek -

The lock parts you are intending to use aren't appropriate for the M-1855 Pistol Carbine. The lock for that arm is a scaled down version of the M-1855 Rifle Musket lock. I say the following with the utmost respect: You really need to handle and measure an original before you invest a lot of money in something that will be incorrect. That is, unless you are just building something to suit yourself to play with.

You mentioned in an earlier post that you thought the N-SSA would be a good fit for you. Have you signed up with a unit yet?

JDH

[rachbobo]

John,
I realize the rifle lock is larger than the pistol version. As I said I printed out pictures I found online and scaled them to size and will use them as a template. As a point of reference I measured from the bottom to the top of the bolster on the Dan Whitacre made barrel. I ignored the heigth of the nipple because that could vary.
Using the hammer and tumbler from the rifle version insures a tight fit and I'll have to modify the hammer smaller to scale.
I will do the same when I make the lockplate by using the scale printouts as a pattern. The only thing that will not be to scale will be the opening of the Maynard Tape Primer system if I can make my own using musket caps.
I'll also play with using #11 pistol caps to see if I can get it to work.
If neither work I'll stick with hand placed Musket caps.
I started this and the Starr Carbine replica long before I heard of the N-SSA. They are machining, hacksaw and file challenges to me and if they are approved for use, all the better.
I have been to the Fort twice and as a matter of fact just got back from there an hour ago.
I have to work out the details of how to join and see which units are open to join.
A few of the weapons I own can be used because they are original but I will not fire or alter them. Others I have to get the right size balls and or molds for them.
Seems that I have spent way too much time building guns and not as much shooting as I need to do.
I live in Capon Bridge WV, where can I get a list of units in this area to see about joining with contact info.

Bill Cheek

[Paul Lampman 263V]

Bill
There are several teams that are "based" within reasonable proximity of your area/The Fort. That being said, where the team is based sometimes has little to do with where members live. As an example, my team The Cockade Rifles, originally based in Petersburg, VA has a member in WV, 7 or so in PA, 1 in NC, 1 in CA, a few in MD and the rest spread around VA mostly around Richmond but we cover the state from Falls Church to Va Beach. Most of the teams in the Assn. are open for membership. The important thing is to find a team that you feel that fits you and that you fit in well with. Skirmishing is an investment. You get out it what you put in.

You've made a good start by coming out to see what's going on. Come to a couple of more regional shoots and talk to the teams behind the line. Express your interest. There will be any number of members willing to talk to you. Our team has a couple of members who did just that and decided we were a good fit. Ask them what their team requirements are. Some teams require qualifications to shoot on their teams. Ask how many shoots the team attends. If they don't attend many shoots then you'll find yourself often looking to be a pickup. The more you talk to different teams the more questions you'll learn to ask.

The next shoot at The Fort is the Allegheny 12-14 Aug. If you want to stay the whole weekend (which is a good way to talk to more members) then or the following Gator Skirmish you are welcome to stay in our bunkhouse. We have two cabins. The front cabin is for cooking, eating, poker playing, spitting in the fire place, telling lies/stories and sipping on home made and store bought beverages. Plenty of room as most members have campers for family, critters and such and there's no obligation. Our interest is to see the N-SSA grow.

phlampman@cox.net
757-535-7393