rate of twist on Euroarms P1853?

[Maillemaker]

Can someone confirm the rate of twist on Euroarms P1853 3-band Enfield rifled muskets for me?

Thanks,

Steve

[Southron Sr.]

Euroarms P-53 Enfield's barrels are "Button Rifled," .006 Deep, 1-72" Twist, 3 Lands, .577" & 3 Grooves .589"

"Button Rifled" refers to the manufacturing process of pulling a carbide "Botton" through a reamed bore that displaces the metal to produce the rifling grooves.

[Blair]

Steve,

At last count for production of Eruroarms P-1853 Enfield type firearms...
A twist rate is 1-72. Progresive depth three lands and groves measured at .003 per grove. .004 deep at the breech. (.006 total depth from grove to grove if you could measure them that way, or .008 at the breech)
Cut rifling replaced the older buttom type of rifling an number of years ago.
Bores were cut to a usual .577 minimum bore dia. This could variry from time to time depending on the wear and resharpening of the tooling used for the drilliling, boring and rifling.
Euroarms will use thes same measurments and dementions on their Springfield line also.
Hope this helps.
Blair

[Maillemaker]

The 2010 S&S firearms catalog has the Enfield P1853 Euroarms musket listed as 1/78 twist.

Steve.

[Blair]

Steve,

Is this the rate of twist you site (or request to know about) in your posting? Is based of the new unfiled barrels coming in from Euroarms? Like what James River Armory was importing and having Hoyt rifle out?
Do you know and/or understand the difference from a custom rifling and the standard factory type rifling? Ask and you shall recieve!
Just out of my own curiosity, if you already/actually believe you have the answer to your question... before you asked it, why are you asking for additional info here?
Blair

[Southron Sr.]

Steve:
I obtained the information cited in my post above from the DGW catalog. Obviously, Blair has the most recent information.

Now, the most accurate Enfields were the P-58 Naval Rifles and the P-60/61 Enfield Army Short Rifles. Both the Naval Rifles and the Army Short Rifles used barrels that were identical, i.e., a 'Heavy' 33" long barrel, with Progressive Depth, 5 Land & Grooves rifling with a 1-48" Twist.

To my knowledge, the ONLY replica two band Enfields that have this form of rifling are the Parker-Hale P-58 Naval Rifles as all the other replica Naval Rifles have different style and twists of rifling.

IN 1863 the Army of Northern Virginia ran an extensive series of tests on all of the various arms available and they determined that the MOST ACCURATE arm was the P-60/61 Enfield Army Short Rifle FIRING British made ammunition. (The P-58 Enfields were confined to the C.S.Navy.) These P-60/61 Short Rifles (and their British made ammo) were issued exclusively to members of the ANV's "Sharpshooter's Battalions."

So, If you can find a Parker-Hale P-58, glass bed it and "sight it in" you will have an extremely accurate Skirmish rifle.
The P-H Rifles have been out of production for several years now.

For more information about ANV Sharpshooters (also known as "The Shock Troops of the Confederacy,") check out:

http://www.cfspress.com/sharpshooters/arms.html

By the way, one of the few Confederate Sharpshooters to survive the war was Berry Benson. When he came home from the war, he also brought with him his issue P-60 Enfield. He was a "Local Hero" from Augusta, GA. His figure holding that rifle is found on the Confederate monument in Augusta and his P-60 Enfield Army Short Rifle is on display in a museum in Augusta.

[Maillemaker]

Blair:

I'm trying to find a bullet that works in my Euroarms P1853. I was talking with Charlie Hahn today about an appropriate bullet, and he thought the rifling was too fast on the Euroarms P53 for the RCBS-Hodgdon skirmisher bullet. But when I told him the catalog said 1/78, he said maybe the bullet would work OK. So then I set out to find what the actual twist rate was on the Euroarms muskets, and I am finding conflicting information, so I thought I would ask here. I think Charlie might have been confused with the ArmiSport 1853, which I think has a 1:48 twist.


Is this the rate of twist you site (or request to know about) in your posting? Is based of the new unfiled barrels coming in from Euroarms? Like what James River Armory was importing and having Hoyt rifle out?
Do you know and/or understand the difference from a custom rifling and the standard factory type rifling? Ask and you shall recieve!

I don't know what, if any, modifications S&S Firearms made to their Euroarms P53s. The catalog says:

RFE2260 1854 Enfield 3 Band Musket .58 Caliber Blued STeel and Brass furniture, 1 piece walnut stock, 39" barrel, 1/78 twist rifling. Mfg. by Euroarms of America. N-SSA APPROVED....525

I'm assuming these are "stock" from Euroarms, as I don't see anything about customizations. But then, I bought mine off of Gunbroker, so I don't know that mine is factory stock, either, but I'm assuming it is. My bore is measuring about .584"


Just out of my own curiosity, if you already/actually believe you have the answer to your question... before you asked it, why are you asking for additional info here?

Because I'm getting conflicting information and am looking for clarification.

The S&S Firearms catalog says 1/78.

This website says 1/78:
http://fcsutler.com/fcweapons.asp

Just found a catalog on the Euroarms.net web site that says 1/78:
http://www.euroarms.net/Avancarica/cata ... 20ENGL.pdf (http://www.euroarms.net/Avancarica/catalogo/CATALOGO%202008-A%20ENGL.pdf)

And this Euroarms site says 1/78:

http://www.euroarms.net/euroarms_netenf ... nfield.htm (http://www.euroarms.net/euroarms_netenfield_file/euroarms_netEnfield.htm)

But then there are other sites like this one that say 1/72:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/inde ... 61893.html (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-361893.html)

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

Please understand, what I say here is not meant as a criticism you or to demine you in your quest for info per say. It has more to do with how you present yourself in your quest for said info.
Parker Hale does produce a three bander variation with a 1-78 rate of twist. Just so you know this was typical within the English production arms. You must also understand this was not at all common within what the Italians were producing at the time, Enfield or Springfield.
Also, please realize what Parker Hale was producing was actually coming from Italy.
Few people know or realize this today. Most believe the Italians copied what the Brits were doing. Nothing could be more wrong!
The only tooling that remains in England that the English actually use to make the Parker Hale's... is the machinery used for rifling the barrels they (Parker Hale) got from Italy.
Surprised?
Yes, most here will be too.
Blair

[Muley Gil]

"Also, please realize what Parker Hale was producing was actually coming from Italy.
Few people know or realize this today. Most believe the Italians copied what the Brits were doing. Nothing could be more wrong!"

Blair,

Are you saying that the Parker-Hale muskets that were sold in the 1970s have Italian made barrels?

[Blair]

Italian made, yes.
Not rifled nor finished but yes made in Italy. Along with every thing else.
Oh boy... here comes the storm!!!!

[Maillemaker]

Blair:

As far as I know, this is a stock Euroarms P1853 Musket, which is why I asked about the twist rate for Euroarms P1853 muskets. I don't know how James River Armoury, Hoyt, or Parker Hale got into this conversation.

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

Stock Euroarms is 1-72 rate of twist with progressive deplth rifling
Parker Hale got into this because they use a 1-78 rate of twist rifled on unfininished barrels fron Euroarms
James River Armory imported the same unfinished barrels from Euroarms and had R. Hoyt cut a variety of rifling and rates of twist in those barrels dependinin on what individuals ordered.
Does that help clear things up?
Blair

[Maillemaker]

Seems to conflict with what the Euroarms web site says, but I'll go with it.

I'll try and measure it on my musket by marking the cleaning rod with a tight patch.

Steve

[Damon]

Blair,
I think you may have some things mixed up.

The original Parker Hale Enfield muzzleloaders where manufactured in Birmingham England. For whatever reason Parker Hale was sold (I think it might have something to do with loss of military contracts and the UK's not so sympathetic attitude to firearms).

The machinery, casting mould etc eventually where purchased by Euroarms, this included unfitted Parker Hale barrels. These apparently have long since been used.

The original PH had progressive depth rifling- 1:78" for the Pattern 1853 reproduction (3 land and grooves)
-1:48" for the Pattern 1858 and 1861 rifle and carbine respectively.