2 band 1863 Springfield?

[Muley Gil]

Back a few years ago, when I was in Afghanistan, I found a 2 band Springfield on one of the gun sites and bought it. I stuck it in the back of the vault, as I had several skirmish guns already. Well, tonight I dug it out.

At the time of purchase, I figured it was just a cutdown rifle musket. The front sight looks just like the one on a 3 bander. It sets about 1 1/4" back from the muzzle. It also appears to have been there for a very long time.The barrel measures 32". The rear band is solid and the front band is a split one, with a swivel. The nose cap is stamped with a "C" on the front. Condemned? The stock has a ESA cartouche.

Any ideas on what I may have?

[Southron Sr.]

Welcome to "The Great Two Band Springfield Debate!" "Were They or Were They NOT?

There is one group of Skirmishers & Historians that claim that ALL two band Springfields were post-war "cut downs," (from regular three banders) by surplus dealers to make the shorter rifles more appealing for sales to military schools, hunters etc.

Members of this group claim that:

(1) There are no contracts or records indicating that two band Springfields were manufactured or issued during the war.

(2) There are no photographs taken during the war of soldiers holding two band Springfields, hence, they didn't exist.

(I have always had a problem with this sort of logic-after all, there are no photographs of Pickett's Charge and using the logic of #2 above, Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg never happened!)

Now...the other side of this debate claim that two band Springfields did exist during the war:

(1) They know that the Richmond Armory salvaged battle damaged arms (both Yankee and Confederate) and sometimes cut Springfields (and others) down to two banders for issue to mounted units, etc.

(2) There are records proving that two bander Springfields were made and issued during the war-those records have yet to be found.

Now, as far as the N-SSA is concerned, the two bander Springfields are legal for Skirmish use. When the N-SSA was just starting in the early 1950's it was the accepted belief that two bander Springfields were used in the Civil War, hence, they were "Grandfathered" into the N-SSA rules.

Now, in addition to the "Great Two Bander" debate, there are what I call the "Eternal HOT Topics" in the N-SSA that will be debated forever, here are some of them:

1. Which is the "Best Lube Formula."
2. Sharps vs Maynard-Which is Better?
3. Should three banders be banned from competition because their muzzles are closer to the target than the muzzles of two banders?

Etc, etc,etc.,

[William H. Shuey]

I believe it is mentioned in "U.S. Military Firearms" by James Hicks that there are letters in the Springfield Armory or old war department records authorizing the use of barrels with muzzle defects to be cut down and used to manufacture 2 band rifles. The thought seems to be that they would be O.K. for use by secondary troops such as supply train and rear area guard units. This would allow use of barrels that otherwaise would be wasted.
That said, there are no records indicating that such weapons were ever actually made.

Bill Shuey

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

THERE ARE RECORDS showing that 2 banders were made for use in the CW. Paul Davies found and published the payroll records for the Richmond Arsenal. The employees were paid for piece work, not hourly. These were essentially Model 1855's. Modifications were made to make them easier to make and save metal. Essentially, the modification was a gradual elimination of the Maynard priming system. The records show that 1311(the number is from memory and may be wrong but its in the neighborhood) of these were made in Richmond Armory. Some were made from salvaged parts and guns, Others were made from all new parts. The name used in the payroll records was Richmond Short Rifle. I have both Gary Vikers custom and an original Short Rifle

It is clear from these records that new 2 bands were made on the machinery and parts captured at Harper's Ferry and moved from HF to Richmond and Fayetteville.

In addition, Inventory records after the war showed there were some 2 band sprngfield type, non-Southern made 2 banders, listed as part of the US weapons inventory. No one knows where these came from.

Muley Gil, I suspect this is an old skirmish gun or possibly a weapon put together for sale to military schools, hunters, etc.. It is not likely to be a Richmond Arsenal 2 band. The barrel lengths known to be made are 33" and 30" barrels. Also, the front sight is of a "pinched" type that is unique to the Richmond Arsenal.

Are there any other markings under the barrel or lock? If it is a musket made for skirmishing, most of those makers marked their barrels and locks some how. Seems to me I remember a skirmish approved sprinngfield type 2 bander with a 32" barrel that is approved.

[Muley Gil]

"Muley Gil, I suspect this is an old skirmish gun or possibly a weapon put together for sale to military schools, hunters, etc.."

I had a PM discussion with another member and I believe this is probably a Bannerman type conversion. The nose cap is secured with a large copper rivet and the triggerguard has been peened, instead of secured with nuts. The only marks on the reverse of the lockplate are an "E" and a "3".

It's going to take a bit of work (and probably a wad of money), but I believe I can make a good shooter out of this one.