Pedersoli Civil War Muzzleloaders

[Damon]

Hi all,
Pedersoli has its new (ex. Euroarms models) Civil War Era muzzleloads on its website now. Pitty the P'1853 Enfield has the incorrect rate of twist, but the P'1858 and P'1861 do have the correct rate of twist and number of grooves. Unfortunately no mention if progressive depth rifling is used or not.

Damon in Australia

[Maillemaker]

Link:

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda- ... -band.html (http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_350/rifles-enfield-enfield-p1853-3-band.html)

What is the historically-correct twist?

[Southron Sr.]

If I recall correctly, for the P-53 it was 1 in 78, three lands and grooves.

I am surprised that Pedersoli didn't copy the original twist exactly. The company is heavily involved sponsoring the Italian team in the International Muzzleloading Matches. Those rules require that replica arms have the same rifling twist, lands and grooves as the originals.

[Damon]

The only reasons I can think of for the deviation of the P'53 from historically acurate rifling are:
1. All the other new 3 land and groove rifles are 1 in 66"
2. Most international level shooters would choose the P'58 Naval rifle.

Damon

[Space Cowboy]

Hello All,

Pedersoli is just starting this product line. They planned to take over the Euroarms line, but now they have to change many things to have the fully accurate rifle copies. They are going to produce their own barrels, with the correct riflings: 1:72" 3 grooves for Springfield and Richmond 3 band, 1:78" 3 grooves for Enfield 3 bands, 1:48" 5 grooves for Enfield 2 band. There are two quality levels at Pedersoli: 1st PMG, 2nd all other. All Pedersoli PMG (Pedersoli Match Grade) barrels have a kind of progressive depth rifling thanks to the manufacturing process. They are lead lapped from the rear, so the dia between the lands at the muzzle is usally smaller than at the breech. So it is not the traditional progressive rifling of the originals. By now I can't tell you wich category the rifle musket barrels will be, but if they use the same technique as with the 1857 Mauser rifles, we can be sure that their rifles will be deadly accurate. The 1857 won many-many international medals so far.

Best,
Space Cowboy

[Maillemaker]

Hello Space Cowboy,

Thank you for the update on the Pedersolie P53 Musket. I have been eagerly hoping for a really good copy of a 3rd model P53 Enfield. I'm willing to pay a premium above the usual ArmiSport and Euroarms prices to buy one.

What is the source for your information? Can you tell us more?

Steve

[Maillemaker]

It would be nice if folks would drop Pedersoli a line encouraging them to make an accurate P53 for reenactors.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/contatti.asp?l=en

[Space Cowboy]

Hell Maillemaker,

I am the editor in chief of Pedersoli's Blackpowder No. 1. magazin, so the source of info is directly from factory. If you have any specific questions, just let me know. I'll try to get accurate info for you.

Best regards,
SC

[Maillemaker]

Hi SC,

Wow, that's great!

I have emailed Pedersoli several times with questions/suggestions and not gotten a response.

Now I'm a beginner at all of this so take this with a grain of salt:

My understanding is that the original Parker-Hale P1853 reproduction was based off a 4th-model P1853. This variant was never used in the American Civil War. A better reproduction would be based off of the 3rd model. Also the hammer that Parker-Hale used was incorrect - it is smaller than is found on original P1853s. There are also inaccuracies in the shape of the stock. These deficiencies were copied by the later Italian reproductions.

It would be fantastic if Pedersoli was re-tooling their P1853 to be representative of the 3rd model P1853. It would also be nice if they could put the modern markings (serial number, black powder warning, etc.) on the underside of the barrel where they are hidden by the stock, if this is at all possible.

A good article to read concerning "Authenticizing Your Enfield":

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/art ... nfauth.htm (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/articles/walden/enfauth.htm)

It should probably be interesting to Pedersoli to note that there are at least a couple folks out there in the business of "defarbing" Enfield muskets to make them look more authentic. People pay around $300 for this service, on top of the base price of the muskets, which now sell new from ArmiSport for around $630 or so.

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Steve,

I sent your notes directly to Pierangelo Pedersoli. I am sure he will find your points interesting. As far as I know the most important Enfields from the shooters point of view are the following ones:

- P1853 rifle musket early .577 39" 3 equal size grooves 1:78" unfirorm twist depth (0,014")
- P1853 rifle musket late .577 39" 3 equal size grooves 1:78" progressive twist depth (0,005" at the muzzle, 0,013" at the breech)
- P1856 rifle .577 33" 3 equal size grooves 1:78" unfirorm twist depth (0,014")
- P1858 Naval Rifle 33" 5 equal size grooves 1:48" unfirorm twist depth (0,014")
- P1861 Rifle 33" 5 equal size grooves 1:48" progressive twist depth (0,005" at the muzzle, 0,013" at the breech)
- P1859 and P1858 Short rifle 24" 3 equal size grooves 1:78" unfirorm twist depth (0,014")
- P1861 Short Rifle 24" 5 equal size grooves 1:48" unfirorm twist depth (0,014")

Which is the one you mentioned?

These are the models that are copied nowdays. Pedersoli's main attention is on the barrels and riflings now. Unfortunately there are no replicas on the market that 100% reproduce the original riflings...

Cheers,
SC

[Maillemaker]

Hi SC:

I don't know how to equate the P1853 model numbers to your list. I just understand that there were 4 models of P1853, with the 3rd model being the most common. The 4th models were mostly converted to Snider cartridge conversions, as I understand it. The second model P1853 had springs in the stock to retain the barrel bands, and they did not see use in the American Civil War in large numbers.

Steve

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Space Cowboy:

The most "Accurate," standard issue Enfields were considered to be the P-58 Naval Rifles and the the P-60 Army Short Rifles. All of these "Short Rifles" had IDENTICAL BARRELS that had 5 Lands & Grooves, the 1 in 48 Twist and "Progressive Depth Rifling." The only difference between the Naval Rifle and the Army Rifle was that the Naval Rifle had brass furniture while the Army rifle had iron furniture!

Matter of fact, Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia conducted a series of tests of all the models of rifles and rifle-muskets in use in the ANV and determined that these Short Enfields WERE THE MOST ACCURATE .577/.58 rifles in the ANV.

The Short Rifles were used to equip special "Sharpshooter" formations and to insure the best in accuracy, the Sharpshooters were issued only British made ammunition for their arms.

For an "in depth" look at the Confederate Sharpshooters history, go to:

http://www.cfspress.com/sharpshooters/arms.html

One of those Confederate Sharpshooters, Berry Benson, not only wrote a book about his wartime experiences but also brought his issue Short Rifle home with him at the end of the war. It is on display in a museum in Augusta, GA.

We could certainly use some "Match Grade" Enfields in the N-SSA!

Any idea when we will see any of the new Pedersoli Enfields here in the United States?

THANKS!

Sincerely Yours

Southron Sanders

[Damon]

Space Cowboy,
is there a timeline when the Enfields, particularly the 1858 Naval rifle (a Pattern 1860 Army short rifle would be nice as well) will be release to the international market?
Regards,
Damon from Australia

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Damon,

To have the full line it will take 1-1,5 year. The first pieces are the Springfield and Richmond (first pieces are under production now). The plan was to have them on the market is a short time, but because of the many changes, the factory needs more time.

SC

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Space Cowboy:

I have sent you a "Private Message" via this website.

Sincerely Yours,
Southron, Sr.,

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Shooters,

Some good news from Pedersoli! All the guns will be produced with historically accurate twist rates (except the progressive depth). The company is now producing the following models and will start delivering in July 2011:

S.201 - Mississippi US Model 1842 Percussion Rifle .58 cal.
S.205 - Richmond C.S. 1863 Rifle Musket .58 cal.
S.243 - Springfield M1855, 1861,1853,1864 Rifle Musket .58
S.273 - 1816 HARPER'S FERRY COLT CONVERSION .69 cal.

On the Fall we will continue with the production of:
S.221 - Enfield 3 band Pattern 1853 Rifle Musket .58 cal.
which availability is forecast towards the end of December, beginning of January.
In the 2012 we will complete the production with the following models:

Late Spring
S.218 - Enfield Musketoon Pattern 1861 Short Rifle
S.220 - Enfield 2 band Pattern 1858 Naval Rifle .58 cal.

Fall
S.291 - Zouave US Model 1863 Rifle .58 cal.
S.209 - COOK & BROTHER Artillery Carbine 24" .58 cal.

Cheers,
SC

[Lou Lou Lou]

Will they be submitted to the Small Arms committee for N-SSA approval?

[Space Cowboy]

I am sure about this.

[Maillemaker]

What I really want to know is are they going to re-tool the thing to represent a 3rd model Enfield. All current Enfield reproductions are based off of the 4th model which was not used in the American Civil War. Also all current repros have an incorrect (too small) hammer.

Steve

[BerdanSharps]

Hello Space Cowboy,

first of all, sorry if my english isn't perfect.

It will be great to have high quality civil war firearms made by Pedersoli. I own a 1859 Sharps made by DP and I couldn't be happier with it.

But what I really want is, like many others here, not just the accuracy for shooting in the inside of the barrel,
but the historical accuracy of the whole appearance of the firearm. What many here want to know is
if Pedersoli improved e.g. the shape of the wood, the barrel around the nippel and the hammer (these are just the most important parts in my opinion)

If I buy a surely very well made Pedersoli Enfield, I really don't want to have it whats called "defarbed" (= reshape wood, exchange inaccurate parts like the sling swivel or the hammer, have it reblued and so on... = make it look historically correct)
Reenactors and historically interested shooters (like me) have to pay up to 300 Dollars to defarb the current Armi Sport or Euroarms Enfields or other types. This is unnecessary.

Since most of the interest in these musket types comes from the use of them in the american civil war, I expect from a manufacturer with such high standards and a reputation like Divade Pedersoli to talk to historians and take originial civil war firearms (many are available!) and make all the changes necessary to do it right. Just taking the Euroarms stuff and make the barrels more accurate for shooting is not enough and unworthy for Pedersoli.

For years reenactors begged the other manufacturers to make the corrections. They were completely ignored.
Pedersoli has the chance to be different and really worth the price we are all willing to pay for historical accuracy.

If I have to defarb an expensive Pedersoli Enfield, I won't buy one.

My relatively cheap Armi Sport Enfield shoots perfectly accurate at 300 yards for years now (bullets made with a superb Pedersoli mold :D ), so I don't have to buy a Pedersoli Enfield just for shooting. I simply expect more. Historical accuracy.

Salute

[cgn1971]

"If I have to defarb an expensive Pedersoli Enfield, I won't buy one."

That is how you'll get them to take notice and make the changes,not by endless emails from everyone and talkin about them to each other.
Of course you're gonna need every reenactor and anyone interested in shooting historical accurate weapons to not buy one aswell.
If you're selling thousands of items and making a great profit you're probably not gonna change what you're doing, but if you got thousands in a warehouse that nobody wants then you'll start asking why nobody wants them and what do I need to do to make somebody want them.
That's just how todays buisnesses look at it unfortunately.

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Shooters,

Thanks for your comments! I gave all the info to Pierangelo Pedersoli, and he is very happy to receive this kind of feedback from you. It helps their work very much.
I do not know how much you have to pay to make a rifle musket historically accurate, but I agree that it's better to have an absolute N-SSA ready, historically accurate gun out of box. (What is the cost of a "defarb" job anyway?)

SC

[Damon]

Space Cowboy,
from my research (being an Australian it has been interesting) there is quite a business of what the US re-enactors call defarbing (Wikipedia has a rough definition of what Farbism and therefore defarbing is).

Basically companies or individuals will remove visible modern manufacturing marking (I personally would question the legality of this and safety but that is speaking as an Australian), more importantly:
1. chaning incorrect parts. On the Enfield for example this includes sling swivels, barrel bands (to the Palmer type instead of Baddley bands, hope spelling is correct)
2. Reshaping the stock to a more historically correct shape
3. Changing the lock-plate markings (but due to the numerous contactors making Enfields for example, this would a logistically nightmare for a manufacturer such as Pedersoli).
4. Adding period correct proofs.

A website with some good examples is Blockade Runner:
http://www.blockaderunner.com/Catalog/catpg2a.html

I think however, due to certain international concerns, such as serial numbers, Italian proof-house marking, manufacturer and place of origin marking requirements, and the fact that some of the proof-marks are still the property of either the British government or Birmingham companies Pedersoli would be best to focus:
1. barrel corect rate of twist or rifing and barrel dimensions
2. Correct sights for the model and make or firearm
3. Correct stock dimensions/proportions
4. Correct hardware features for the models issues in the time period of interest, Enfields seem to be the biggest problem having 4 types with differring barrel bands, ramrods, sight graduation changes.

Just the humble opinions of a relatively new Australian student of the ACW and the small arms used in its battles.

Damon from Australia

[GPM]

Space Cowboy, As far as lockplate markings go, Brown bess muskets and pistols have been produced with "Tower" markings in the past with no "copyright" issues that I am aware of. Two seperate sutlers produce replacement lockplates with Tower 1862 markings. This seems to be one of the most commonly encountered markings on original Enfields.

[Space Cowboy]

Thanks for the info!

Unfortuantely the markings on the barrel (maker, serial no., calibre, "balck powder only", CIP proof marks) have to be at a visible place. This is something that must be respected.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

In observing that the Navy Arms website indicated "out of stock" on the Parker-Hale line, that with EOA now sold to Pedersoli, Navy Arms may seek a similar arrangement for continuing production of the Parker-Hale line. Or they may not seek any continuance at which point we will have seen the last of the Parker-Hale P/53 rifle musket, P/58 Navy Rifle, P/61 Artillery Carbine and other variants. At any rate, if anyone wants one, it will probably be at whatever the market will bear.

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Richard,

The Parker Hale brand was owned by Euroarms. About 6-7 years ago you could still buy Euroarms rifles with original PH barrels manufactured in Birmingham, but they run out of stock. By that time you could by the same Enfield rifle in 3 versions:
- with original PH barrel
- EA barrel with PH markings
- EA barrel
The last two versions were the same exactly. If you bought a new EA rifle with Parker Hale signs after 2007, it was probably a normal EA barrel. The PH barrels have different proof marks (Birmingham CIP proof marks) that the PH marked and EA barrels (Gardone VT proof marks), so it is not hard to identify the originals.

Cheers,
SC

[Blair]

Space Cowboy,

Not hard to identify until a defarber got or gets a hold of it.
Then it becomes anything the current owner wants it to become, or the defarber has marks or stamps for.
Disadvantage most owners are not aware of is that any warranty or guaranty that may have been offered with the original firearm, has become void.
Defarbing also makes it difficult to identify the actual maker/importer should one ever need replacement parts of any kind.
Pedersoli, as a modern maker of reproduction firearms, they can not be held to the 150 year old makers marks.
This is what many modern historically accurate/authentic reenacters simply do not understand. Pedersoli (any modern arms manufacture) must use the the modern makers marks on the Barrels as are required by Law.
Unfortunately, few of the 'defarbers' will respect the barrel making requirements that Pedersoli will be required to uphold.
Blair

[John Bly]

If they are going to produce the 1841 rifle aka "Mississippi" in .58 caliber they would do well to produce the Harpers Ferry Arsenal conversion with the 1855 long range sights, bayonet lug and short front band. This seems to be a prevalent modification to many 1841 rifles that people are now shooting. As the N-SSA population ages those long range sights are much easier to use. Of course, if they don't see fit to produce one in that configuration then I will have a new market for short front bands and Rich Cross will stay busy making 1855 long range sights.

[Maillemaker]

I think the bottom line is that Pedersoli needs to research the 3rd model P1853 Musket, and make sure that it dimensionally matches a historical example of that firearm.

It has to have the right barrel bands, which some reproductions currently do not.
It has to have the right sling hardware, which some reproductions currently do not.
It has to have the right hammer, which all reproductions currently do not.
It has to have the correct screw head stanchions on the side of the stock, which some reproductions currently do not.
It has to have a correctly shaped stock, which some reproductions currently do not.
If it is legally possible to do so, it should weigh the same as an original firearm.

Ideally, all modern barrel markings should be on the bottom side of the barrel, hidden under the stock. Even if this cannot be done, it would be good if the modern barrel markings were duplicated on the bottom side of the barrel, so that when they are ground off by de-farbers (as they will be) the information will still be on the barrel.

If Pedersoli is serious about this, their best bet would be to spend a few thousand dollars and acquire a complete correct 3rd model P1853 musket of verified providence and duplicate it.

Aside from the modern barrel marking issue, I think the biggest issue is that there were a several different manufacturers of the Enfield P1853 rifled musket, and thus the markings on the firearm, including the lock, stock, and the barrel, vary accordingly. Enfield muskets were made by several vendors, including Enfield, Birmingham Small Arms Trade, London Armoury Co. Ltd., Barnett, E.P. Bond, Potts & Hunt, Parker Field & Sons, and Yeomans. Of the London trade groups, the L.A. Co. and Barnett were the most common. But because of all these possibilities, it would not be possible for Pedersoli to create markings for all of them.

So Pedersoli has two options: First, pick a specific 3rd Model P1853 Enfield by a specific manufacturer, and then mark it appropriately. For example, Pedersoli could decide to replicate a 3rd model P1853 manufactured by the London Armoury Co. It would then have LAC proof marks on the barrel, an LAC-marked lockplate, and an LAC cartouche on the stock. This might annoy reenactors who wish to have an Enfield manufactured by another manufacturer.

Secondly, it could create a dimensionally-accurate 3rd Model P1853 Enfield with no manufacturer markings at all. This would allow people who cared about such things to easily have those markings added by a craftsman of their choice.

As an alternative, perhaps Pedersoli could offer lockplates with different stampings as an aftermarket product offering.

I have already sent this link to Pedersoli before, but I highly recommend this article, as it explains the common de-farb exercises and common Enfield characteristics and markings:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/art ... nfauth.htm (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/articles/walden/enfauth.htm)

Steve

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Pedersoli will comply with the import requirements needed to ship their weapons into this country. These modern markings are required to be visible.

Defarbers and those that own the de-farbed weapons are taking chances as it is my belief after reading the laws in this area that this is illegal. Yes, since it is such a minor thing, it is unlikely you will be prosecuted, but still you are violating the law. As an attorney, I advise against this.

I would like to see Pedersoli stamp their weapons internally with their marks to prevent fraudulent dealers from passing their weapons off as "original CS firearms" The defarbed weapons are bad enough without Mass produced weapons of proper types, etc. being thrown into the market.

[Maillemaker]

This is from the article I cited earlier:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/art ... nfauth.htm (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/articles/walden/enfauth.htm)

"The best (and most authentic) choice is to reproduce a specific gun in a private or museum collection, provided it is not a rare type and you have access to it in order to photograph or draw all its pertinent markings. If this is not possible and you have no overwhelming personal preference, my recommendation is to copy the Birmingham "Tower" type, dated 1861 or 1862, as this is the most commonly encountered specimen today. Keep in mind that whatever type you choose, all its characteristics must match. If you choose to do a Birmingham gun, it must have Birmingham lock markings, Birmingham proofs, Birmingham stock markings, and Birmingham type furniture, and vice versa for London guns."

Steve

[BerdanSharps]

I don't think we should demand any special markings at all since they are really easy and cheap to add.
That takes one's mind off the important things and our chances for a appropriate shape of the muskets drop ;-)
Just my opinion..

[Maillemaker]

I don't think we should demand any special markings at all since they are really easy and cheap to add.

The more I think on this the more I tend to agree. People will inevitably want different variants of P1853 so perhaps the best option would be no markings at all.

Perhaps Pedersoli could sell a marked and an unmarked version. Surely the unmarked version would be preferable to them as it would be cheaper to manufacture.

Steve

[John Holland]

From the N-SSA's rules:

14.6 IDENTIFICATION OF REPRODUCTIONS

In the interest of preserving the identity of original arms and parts, and in order
to discourage counterfeiting of originals, the use on reproductions of original
names, markings, and dates of their prototypes is discouraged. Manufacturers of
reproduction arms are required to mark their arms with their own names,
trademarks or symbols in such a manner as to be visible on the completed
firearm to distinguish these from the originals.

[Maillemaker]

I find these kind of rules ambiguous at best. To simply say that something is "discouraged" is pretty much meaningless.

Steve

[John Holland]

If these types of Rules are too ambiguous for you, then I would suggest you contact the Rules Committee for a definitive explanation.

JDH

[B. Miller]

Space Cowboy,

A quick question, are Pedersoli's competition C&B revolvers going to be easier to come by as a result addition of the Civil War line firearms? At the present these seem to be special order items with any vender that offers them.

Thanks,

Bruce

[Maillemaker]

If these types of Rules are too ambiguous for you, then I would suggest you contact the Rules Committee for a definitive explanation.

Based on what you posted, there seems to be no need. They are allowed.

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

You may, of course, assume (quote), "They are allowed." That choice is yours to make.
However, you may also wish to go back and re read what Space Cowboy wrote, (quote),
"Unfortuantely the markings on the barrel (maker, serial no., calibre, "balck powder only", CIP proof marks) have to be at a visible place. This is something that must be respected.

Compare that statement with this part of the ruling John Holland posted, (quote),
"Manufacturers of reproduction arms are required to mark their arms with their own names, trademarks or symbols in such a manner as to be visible on the completed firearm to distinguish these from the originals."

Production approved repro firearms must be identifiable as to that Manufacturers "Production" acceptance and subsequent approval. These identifying marks are on the barrel.
Should these be removed, the documentation required to properly identify the firearm Manufacturer may have been removed along with them.
Don't be disappointed if your supper accurate/authentic defarbed CW reenacter firearm fails acceptance because you can no longer document the maker.
This is just a suggestion on my part,
Blair

[Maillemaker]

You may, of course, assume (quote), "They are allowed." That choice is yours to make.
However, you may also wish to go back and re read what Space Cowboy wrote, (quote),
"Unfortuantely the markings on the barrel (maker, serial no., calibre, "balck powder only", CIP proof marks) have to be at a visible place. This is something that must be respected.

I think there are two separate issues being conflated here.

Firstly, we were talking about the markings on the firearm in the context of a historical replica, in light of the fact that many people today buy reproductions and then have them more authentically marked, including the removal of inauthentic markings. It was then pointed out that for legal reasons no manufacturer is likely to be able to not put anachronistic markings on the firearm. This is probably true.

Then, John pointed out the rule that in the N-SSA, such "de-farbed" firearms are "discouraged." But it does not say that they are not allowed. Consequently, one must interpret this that they are allowed, only "discouraged." If such firearms were not allowed, then the rule would say they are not allowed.


Compare that statement with this part of the ruling John Holland posted, (quote),
"Manufacturers of reproduction arms are required to mark their arms with their own names, trademarks or symbols in such a manner as to be visible on the completed firearm to distinguish these from the originals."

And all manufacturers of reproduction arms currently do this. Some people just then remove such markings, and re-mark them in a more authentic manner. Per the rules that were quoted, this is only "discouraged". I'm not clear on what form the discouragement takes. Dirty looks, floggings, or impromptu firing squad? :)


Production approved repro firearms must be identifiable as to that Manufacturers "Production" acceptance and subsequent approval. These identifying marks are on the barrel.
Should these be removed, the documentation required to properly identify the firearm Manufacturer may have been removed along with them.
Don't be disappointed if your supper accurate/authentic defarbed CW reenacter firearm fails acceptance because you can no longer document the maker.

When I have my musket de-farbed, I will have the maker's information transferred to the underside of the barrel, along with documentation that shows the change.

It would be nice if the manufacturers went ahead and included such stampings on the underside of the barrel as a matter of course. They could leave the top-side markings also, if needs be.

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

First part of the rule posted by John Holland, titled, "IDENTIFICATION OF REPRODUCTIONS" reads, (quote)
"In the interest of preserving the identity of original arms and parts, and in order to discourage counterfeiting of originals, the use on reproductions of original names, markings, and dates of their prototypes is discouraged."
The underlined portion is in reference to the use "of original" arms "name, markings and date" on reproduction arms (parts such as lock plates) is what is being "discouraged."
Manufacturer/Barrel markings, etc., are covered under the second sentence in this rule.
As John suggested, "contact the Rules Committee for a definitive explanation." You probably aren't going like their explanation either.
Blair

[John Holland]

This is directed to all parties involved in this topic.

First of all, I'm going to STRONGLY recommend that everyone read the N-SSA's Rules as posted through a tab on the homepage at
http://www.n-ssa.org., or more simply http://www.n-ssa.org/NATIONAL/RulesJan2011.pdf. You can even download them for future reference so you don't have to be online to check a Rule for yourself!

If everyone had acquainted themselves with the N-SSA's rules, you would have read the following:

14.7.1 ARMS TO BE SUBMITTED FOR APPROVAL

f. Any arm that has the original manufacturer’s identification
removed or in any way altered.

That means that if the SAC is satisfied with the information provided by the customer who brings in a previously N-SSA Production Approved arm that has "defarbed", you will receive a SAC Individual Approval to use said arm in the N-SSA's competitive matches.

John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

While John has cleared up the rules on removal of markings very nicely, I would caution AGAINST ANY REMOVAL of markings that come with the weapon. I have read the laws on importation of firearms and feel strongly that the removal will leave you subject to prosecution by the feds. Some states also have laws against this practice.

Because of priorities and knowledge of the way the courts work in the federal system, I doubt you will ever be prosecuted. Defarb at your own risk and knowing you could wind up in jail for this.

[cgn1971]

You could do like me back when I was still reenacting and "defarbing" was just getting started, Go buy a Uberti Henry and when folks say it needs "defarbing" kindly invite them to go speak with the ATF for ya and get their permission.
Any if you "defarb" a cap and ball revolver don't dare put one of the popular cartridge conversion cylinders in it, cause once again you've now altered the original markings and serial number on a cartridge gun.

[Don Dixon]

Do a search on "defarb" and you will find a 2010 thread in the "for sale" section on the issue. In it, several of us expressed our concerns, in some detail, regarding the potential legal risks of the practice. These things are firearms, not props in a play, and are covered by a range of federal, state, and local laws and regulations having the force of law. Remove the manufacturers' markings at your peril.

Hypothetical Case: There is an "accident" at a reenactment and someone is shot. There is considerable press coverage in a state which is not particularly gun friendly. The police can't identify the weapon used in the incident, but they do find a number of firearms in which the manufacturers markings have been removed (But I just "defarbed" it.) in violation of state law. Do you really want to be the owner of one of those guns? At the very least, they will seize it.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[John Holland]

Believe Mr. Dixon's hypothetical scenario. Mr. Dixon hasn't stated his qualifications here, but I will tell you his extensive legal background on a Federal level is more than enough for me!

JDH

[Mike McDaniel]

Space Cowboy,

A quick question, are Pedersoli's competition C&B revolvers going to be easier to come by as a result addition of the Civil War line firearms? At the present these seem to be special order items with any vender that offers them.

Thanks,

Bruce
I certainly agree with this. I've handled the Pedersoli revolvers, and they are far superior to anything short of a Feinwerkbau R&S or Hege Army Match Maximum.

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

When an accident such as Mr. Dixon describes, it will be the decision of local prosecutors, State and Federal, if you are prosecuted for the "defarbed" weapon. If they can't find the actual shooter that caused the injury, they will want someone to hang instead. Guess who they will pick, the ones they have a drop dead conviction on who is caught holding an Altered "defarbed" weapon. Since no one but a hardcore re-enactor will see(or care) that your weapon is not defarbed, is it worth it? Defarb at your own risk!

The reason I would like to see internal markings on replicas is that it will make them more difficult to pass off as originals. I keep seeing people try and pass these off as originals and know that they have been successful to quite a degree. I have told at least 4 people this year that their "original" musket was a repro made to look old. One of these was the local "expert" on CW weapons.

[Southron Sr.]

Well, to start with, the U.S. Customs enforces the law that requires that "the country of origin" be stamped or otherwise be plainly marked on the arm. But Customs doesn't stop there, IF any of the spurious markings on an imported arm violates any of the copyright or trademark laws, then the arm will be seized and destroyed.

[Maillemaker]

The reason I would like to see internal markings on replicas is that it will make them more difficult to pass off as originals.

I would also like to see internal markings on replicas.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

14.7.1 ARMS TO BE SUBMITTED FOR APPROVAL

f. Any arm that has the original manufacturer’s identification
removed or in any way altered.

That means that if the SAC is satisfied with the information provided by the customer who brings in a previously N-SSA Production Approved arm that has "defarbed", you will receive a SAC Individual Approval to use said arm in the N-SSA's competitive matches.

Well this is definitely the "meat and potatoes" of the rules concerning defarbs. If I'm reading them right, if you want to use a defarbed weapon, you have to submit it to the Board of Directors, only at Board of Director meetings, "submitted to the Inspector General or to the Small Arms Committee at least six weeks before the January or August meetings or the meetings held at the Spring and Fall National Skirmishes."

Now I know what they mean by "discouraged." :)

Steve

[John Holland]

Steve -

You have mis-interpreted the rule. The rule you have quoted is for "Production Approvals". Arms with a Production Approval means that you can purchase the arm from a vendor and go right up to the line with it, no questions asked, no Small Arms card required.

Example - ArmiSport makes a reproduction of a Civil War arm....Taylor's & Co. imports it into the U.S. .....Taylors & Co. would like to have the arm used by the N-SSA....Taylor's submits the arm for review by the Small Arms Committee six weeks prior to a Board of Directors meeting....the SAC reviews the arm and is satisfied that the arm is proper for use in the N-SSA's competitive matches.....then at said Board of Directors meeting the arm is presented to the Board of Directors by either the Chairman of the SAC or the National Inspector General, along with a written report....the Board of Directors then decides whether to accept or deny the recommendations of the SAC....if the Board accepts the SAC recommendation to allow the arm it is then given Production Approval by the Board and added to the Approved Arms List.....this allows the membership to purchase said arm and use it in the N-SSA's matches with no requirement for the individual to get a SAC card for it.

The other rule about "Defarbed" arms, very simply, is if you have a Defarbed arm you are required to take it to a Small Arms Inspector to have an Individual Approval card issued from the Small Arms Committee which will allow you to use the Defarbed arm in the N-SSA. If you build your own arm from parts you are also required to do the same thing.

I hope this has cleared up any confusion on how the system works. If not, let me know and I'll try it again!

John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee

[Maillemaker]

Ah, OK. I'm still new at all this so I'm not up on all the rules. I'm going to my second skirmish this weekend. Where are Small Arms Inspectors? Are they at every skirmish?

I'm still confused because 14.7.1 says:

14.7.1 ARMS TO BE SUBMITTED FOR APPROVAL
The following arms must be submitted to the Small Arms Committee for
consideration of approval.
.
.
.
f. Any arm that has the original manufacturer’s identification
removed or in any way altered.

This sounds like defarbs have to go to the Small Arms "Committee". It this the same thing as a Small Arms Inspector? Do inspectors work on behalf of the committee?

Steve

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Steve, there are several that are likely to be there this weekend. Lannie Harrison and Richard Hill immediately come to mind.

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Shooters,

Unmarked guns: this is impossible. European manufacturers have to keep the strict rules of national laws, regulations of CIP and the regulations of the United Nations set in 2001 in Palermo. So this is not „just” national law. This is something more. I am not familiar with the NSSA rules, sorry about it, but what ever the rulebook says, the the manufacturers' God is the police, who makes them keep the law.

Bruce: Pedersoli is working on building a better distribution system for the USA to solve this problem you are facing. Their six shooters are priced higher than any Italian replicas, as they are manufactured with the serious target shooter in mind. They cost more (2,5 times more) than the other repros. This is why the dealers do not really like to keep them on regular stock. DP and 3 other Italian companies established a distribution firm a few monthes ago - Italian Firearms Group – to improve their market presence. Hope this will help a lot. Pedersoli's revolvers are among the best ones. If you check the MLAIC target shooting result pages you can see only a few types: Hege Army Match Maximum, Feinwerkbau Rogers & Spencer, Pedersoli Remington, Pietta Shooters Remington (with the progressive twist, but you have to spend another few hundred USD for the accurizing). This is a very tough competition both on 25 and 50 m.

I'll be offline for a few days, I'll be taking part at the MLAIC Friendship match is Austria this weekend, but will try to check this forum if I find a wifi hotspot. I'll be shooting my original Bridesburg rifle musket made by Jenks and Son in the 100 m Minié, and 50 m Lamarmora event. If I reach 90 on 100m and 95 on 50m I'll send all of you a virtual beer. :)

Best regards,
SC

[Eggman]

That word "defarbed" is certrainly a catchy little slice of the language. I looked it up in my college dictionary but it wasn't there. But since my dictionary has a 1962 copyright, there are no "hard drives" or non-biological viruses or anything like that in there either. I did find it in an Emily Dickinson poem however.

Twas on a moon-lit night,
de stars shown gay and bright,
we chewed our Juicy Fruit with all our might,
while de band played defarb with delight.

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Eggman:

In addition to being an accomplished Maynard shooter I learn that you are also a poet of note! My heart swells with pride knowing that you are a member of our humble Carolina Region!

Actually, the term "Farb" was coined by the "Authentics" in the Re-enactment community back in the 1960's to describe anyone or any group that wore historically inaccurate "costumes" rather than historically correct reproductions of Civil War uniforms and equipment.

Even today, there is a lively debate as how and where the word "Farb" originated.

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

I was told (by a reenactor) that there was a man named Farb who was notoriously inauthentic. This etymology, of course, is not included in the writeup about the term in Wikipedia.

[MR. GADGET]

I see that they are or will be selling the S.273 - 1816 HARPER'S FERRY COLT CONVERSION .69 cal.

Can anyone clear up the type of 1816 and all the different repop models out there.
What I'm getting at is this and only this, I see 1816 H&P sighted smoothbores .
Is there a repop that is sighted, or easy enough to just add the rear sight to the correct model, or is the only way to get a sighted SB to find a real one?

Thanks..

[Lou Lou Lou]

I was told that many a long winded discussion started with " far be it for me to disagree with you but you dont know your Springfield from your Smith: Hence FARB, then to defarb as to remove any offending traits.

Y'all can go back to this succicnt discussion.

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Lou:

There is a good book out called "Confederates in the Attic" that deals with a definite "sub-culture" in the Civil War Re-enactment community, what I call the "Hard Corps 'Authentic" Re-enactors." If your local library doesn't have a copy of the book, have them get one thru Inter-library loan. It is a good read.

To start with, everything on or about them must be either original Civil War or an exact reproduction of the same. They could literally be "Time Travelers" if a machine existed that could carry them back to 1863. Their uniforms and equipment are perfect and in many cases, they even master the idiom and language of the 1860's. In their pockets they carry 1860's money and even nick-nacks (pocket knife, coins, comb, etc) like a soldier of the time would carry. Of course, they have no "modern" items on or about their bodies.

Flash them back to 1863 and they would perfectly "at home" in a Civil War military unit.

So, I can understand their desire to have rifles and rifle-muskets that are "De-farbed" of modern markings. Since they are muzzleloaders, I sincerely doubt that the LEO's will take too much interest in the practice of De-farbing unless there is an accident or homicide and the de-farbed musket is involved.

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Shooters,

The first new Pedersoli Springfield rifles are ready. The new barrels are performing very well, and there are several minor modifications on stock, metal parts, markings. I attached a picture about the group size of the first rifle at 50 m, shot from the rest. I believe that these rifles will be capable of hole-in-hole accuracy. The target is an ordinari ISSF 50 m pistol target with 5 cm diameter bull's eye.

Cheers,
SC

[Blair]

Space Cowboy,

Sorry, I was unable to pull up the image you posted. Do you have another link that you could post that will let us see what you posted?
Is this of the target? Was it shot from a bench? Off hand?
Any info on the load and bullet type, and dia. used would also be of great assistance.
What other images can you provide of the firearm and the changes made to it?

Any ideas of what the suggested retail cost maybe yet?
Blair

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Blair,

Here is the direkt link to the pic:
http://www.kapszli.hu/image/forum/69795_0.jpg

It was shot from a rest. I'll collect the load and bullet info for you,

cheers
SC

[Maillemaker]

Certainly looks like impressive accuracy. I'm very curious as to how it compares to a historical Springfield in terms of rifling, weight, and appearance.

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

I'll receive the first rifle for testing in a few weeks. I have an original Bridesburg in mint condition, so I'll be able to do the comparsion of the repro and original.
Cheers,
SC

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

SC,

Any chance that Pedersoli may stamp a company mark inside the lock plate, trigger guard, and butt late?

[Space Cowboy]

The company must keep the CIP rules: the markings (maker, calibre, black powder obnly, proof marks) must be in a visible place, cannot be hidden. The place on the barrel can vary.

The load for the group size was:
- 620 gr .577 Minié from Pedersoli mould, unsized, unweighted
- lube: Pederoli's Minié lube (soft)
- charge: 65 gr Swiss No. 3. (2Fg) measured by volume

Cheers,
SC

[Maillemaker]

I think something is up with the BBS. Page 6 keeps appearing and disappearing in this thread, and some of the comments seem unrelated to the thread.
Steve

[Rebel Dave]

Steve
I have noticed the same.
Some of my posts on the "Shooting tips nand Techniques" have vanished. I wonder if the sight has a Glitch.

Rebel Dave

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

I have been looking a these as well.

I noticed that Cabelas now shows the Pedersoli 'Cooke & Brother' carbine as available, despite them being slated for a fall release.

[Bob Riley]

If we can submit items to a "Wish List," I would love to put in for an authentic copy of an 1842 smoothbore. Pedersoli could build a nice one.

Bob Riley

[Southron Sr.]

The Armi Sport M1842 is pretty decent. IF Pedersoli wants to sell a lot of guns, then they should reproduce the Austrian Lorenz as it is THE ONLY ONE of the Civil War's"Big Three" Rifle-Muskets in terms of numbers issued and used (Springfield, Enfield and the Austrian Lorenz) that is yet to be reproduced.

The re-enactors have been begging for a decent replica of the Austrian Lorenz for years now.


[Note: I am including in the "Springfield" category Harpers Ferrys, Richmonds and Fayettevilles.]

[Southron Sr.]

Check out the history of the Austrian Lorenz:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORENZ_RIFLE

One in .54 caliber with 5 lands and grooves and a 1/48" Twist WITH the adjustable rear sight would be a Skirmisher's dream rifle, while a smoothbore with the block rear sight would appeal to re-enactors!

[Southron Sr.]

OOPS! The correct address is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_rifle

[Don Dixon]

Southron,

Lest you confuse the issue, the Muster 1854 "Lorenz" rifles were not ".54s." The Austro-Hungarian Army ordnance standard was 13.9 mm/.547 inches for the barrel bore, with four lands and grooves. That's why much of the Federal ".54" calbier ammunition shot so badly in them. But, the Federal and Confederate Ordnance Departments didn't have much of a clue, despite the Federals having done a technical intelligence exploitation of the weapons prior to the Civil War.

If the Small Arms Committee is interested in accuracy, that's what Pedersoli (or whomever) should manufacture, and what the Small Arms Committee should approve.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

Just an update on a Pedersoli Sharps Infantry I picked up used at Spring Nat'ls. This is supposedly the one we raffled a couple of years ago. Anyway, I had it fitted with an O ring conversion and, da*m this gun shoots lights out. I am extremely happy with the accuracy, and I'm shooting the same load as in my Shiloh Sharps Carbine, 50g of FFg Goex behind a Rapine Christmas tree dipped in MCM.
Space Cowboy, Just thought you would like to know.

[Mike McDaniel]

Space Cowboy:

If Pedersoli is considering a Lorentz repro, I would strongly advise consulting with Don Dixon. He's been studying the Austro-Hungarian weapons for several years, and has turned up a lot of information.

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Shooters,

Regarding the Lorenz rifles. About two years ago I landed my original Lorenz M 1854 infantry rifle to Pierangelo to copy it. Now I have also an M1854 Jagerstützen in my collection. Both with beautiful bore. I really hope that in a few years they will hit the market.

Regarding the rifling and bore of the Lorez rifles:
The Lorenz rifles came with the 4 groove - 4 lands rifling. The twist rate of the infantry rifle was one turn in 210 cm (1:82"), while the twist rate of the Jager was 1 turn in 158 cm (1:68"). The kaliber of the rifle is not .54 but 13,9 mm as mentioned before in a post. In original A-H units: 6 lines and 4 points. This kaliber is called the "south german convention caliber", as this was the caliber of many german states connected to the Austro-Hungarian empire as well. The bullet itself had two compression grooves (not grease grooves), and it was 13,72 mm in diameter (6 lines and 3 points). The weight of the bullet was 400 wiener grain (not the same as the US grain). It is approximately 29 gramms. The bullet was loaded with paper patching. And the cintruction of the cartridge was simmilar to the Enfield cartridge: the bullet was in the opposite direction than in the US cartridges. The speed of the bulléet at the muzzle was 1180 wiener feet / sec (approximately 375 m/s).

I made an original bullet mould, to reproduce the original bullet. I have several collected from battlefields, and some in really good condition. I also made tests with teh preproduced cartridge with good results. The Jager shot easily inside the 9 ring at 50 ms. With the Pedersoli .547 Minié, the rifle shoot hole in hole.

So Lorenz is a really good rifle. I wrote many articles about the history and shooting Austro Hungarian rifles (Augustin Muskets, 1849 Kammertbüchse, 1798 M Muskets, Wänzl rifle, Werndl rifle) and also a book. So if you have any questions about these guns, just let me know. I have all the original manuals, regulations, tactics for these arms.

Here is an article about the Jager - sorry in Hungarian:
http://kapszli.hu/emagazin/FM%20eMagazi ... ktober.pdf (http://kapszli.hu/emagazin/FM%20eMagazin%2022.%20szam%202010.%20oktober.pdf)



Cheers,
Balázs

by the way: I just received some photos of the first Springfield: new markings, new catrouches, reshaped comb, reshaped muzzle, and reshaped rear sight. I'll receive the first test pieces next week.

[Don Dixon]

Space Cowboy,

I enjoyed looking at the Jäger article. Now I just have to translate it :) . I also found that the Pedersoli .547 bullet worked best in my original System Lorenz arms. Those of us who shoot the k.k. Army weapons like them very much, once we find a bullet that works in them. The problems the Federals had with their System Lorenz arms in the American Civil War was largely a product of stupidly issuing grossly undersized ammunition. Standard Federal ".54" ammunition was at least 0.254 mm/0.01 inches smaller than the k.k. Army bore diameter, with no paper patching.

I would be interested in citations to your articles and book. I am always interested in more good research material on the k.k. Army weapons. I have had difficulty in getting published materials from eastern Europe. For example, I've been trying for several years to get a copy of Ctirad Benes' book Palne Zbrane Systemu Lorenz with no luck.

There seems to be a demand by our reenactors for M 1854 System Lorenz Type I and II infantry weapons. Whether people would be willing to pay what Pedersoli might want to reproduce the arms is a good question, as is the size of the reenactor market. The N-SSA market is even more limited. But, you also have other wars to reenact in Europe in which the System Augustin and System Lorenz weapons were used.

On the subject of System Augustin weapons, your Hugarian web site shows two reproduction "M 1844" System Augustin tubelock weapons: a cavalry carbine and an infantry musket. I saw them listed there several years ago, but have seen nothing on them anywhere else. Could you please provide further information?

By any chance are you a member of the Hungarian MLAIC team?

Regards,
Don Dixon

[Blair]

Don,

I sent a copy of the article to Tom Hunger. Being he is Hungarian, I though he would enjoy it.
My computer will translate (I think), I have not tried it, but can give it a try.
You may want to cross check with Tom in a day or so for a translation, or at least a report on the article.
Just a thought,
Blair

[Space Cowboy]

Don,

The Augustin weapons on the website are manufactured nowdays as well, but they are produced in very limited quantities, a it is done by a small company. They are exact copies, only the bolster is modified to accept a normal 4 mm percussion cap to make the use easier. In fact this is not really necessary as I worked out a method for modifying the 4 wing musket caps to activate the action. It works perfectly with my original 1849 M Kammerbüchse.

This Kammerbüchse can be interesting as well, as they were used in the civil war also, usally referred to as Garibaldi rifle. They were converted to percussion and used with .69 Minié bullets. In fact this load coulkd not be too accurate, as the bore diameter of this gun is 18,1 mm (.71, original obsolete unint: 8 lines 3 points). This guns originally were used with 3 types of bullets:
- M 1842 cartridge - patched round ball cartridge
- M 1847 spitzkugel cartridge - this bullet was an undersized cylindrical - conical bullet with pointed edge. It had one deep groove and no skirt. The groove was not a grease groove but held an oversized felt ring, that held the lubrication, and sealed the bore.
- M 1853 compression bullet cartridge -

This guns have a Delvigne (chamber) type breech, so all bullets were rammed against the wall of the chamber, to upset it into the rifling. With oroginal bullets these guns are really accurate even at long range, but due to the slow muzzle speed and 41 g weight of the bullet bullet path is very high. This guns were issued to Jager batallions, grenzjägers, and skirmishers. The majority of the regular infantry were equipped with smooth bore muskets.

I use my Kammerbüchse with the following load: 42 gr 3Fg swiss + 24 grains of filler + thick patch + .682 RB. I have to ram the bullet 6 times hardly against the wall of the chamber to have the same gas pressure - impact height. The gun with this load is capable of hole-in hole accuracy at 50 ms, and 8 ring accuracy at 100.

I made testings to reproduce the original muzzle speed of cca 240 m/s. I found out that 42 gr FFFg swiss can do the job, but it does not fill the chamber completely. To do this you need approx. 65 grains, this is why you need the filler.

Here is an article about the Kammerbüchse bullets - sorry in Hungarian...
http://kapszli.hu/emagazin/FM%20eMagazi ... vember.pdf (http://kapszli.hu/emagazin/FM%20eMagazin%2013.%20szam%202008.%20november.pdf)
Starts from page 14. This article also gives a few info about the military powders of the AH monarchy.

MLAIC: yes, I shoot in the international team. And I am the delegate of my country, and member of the MLAIC comission.

cheers,
SC / Balázs Németh

[Space Cowboy]

Regarding the Lorenz rifles and books:

The Lorenz could be a good competitor agains Pedersoli's Mauser rifles. Same caliber, same profile. Currenty the Muaser is the highest prized - and probably the best - rifle musket on the market, so I beliewe if the Lorenz is launched, it will be on the same price level. But who knows... USA is much bigger market than MLAIC shooting. We'll see. :)

It is easy to find books. I recommend you to read the original contemporary books about the subject. In most cases they are far better than anything you can find on the book shelves today. Their only problem is you have to know the german language and sometime the gothic abc. The good point is you can find many of these original books scanned free on google books. I will make a list of book links for you later.

You can find here also many original US and CS regulations, manuals (Scott, Wilcox, Gilham, etc...) and british manuals (books of the marksmanship school of Hythe).

Cheers,
Balázs

[Smoothbore]

Will you guys be picking up the Whitworth/Volunteer rifles?

I

[Space Cowboy]

Not in the near future as far as I know. The first task is to have the planned .58 cal rifles on the market in time.

Cheers,
Balázs

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Shooters,

I had my first experiences with the new - cheaper - Pedersoli Speingfield rifle. Here is a short video about the tests:
<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jWkDPscNyD4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
direkt link:
http://youtu.be/jWkDPscNyD4

Sorry for my english!!! :) In the next issue of the Blackpowder No. 1. magazine you'll find the complete article.

Cheers,
SC

[Maillemaker]

Fantastic video, thanks!

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

Thanks Steve! In the next part I'll continue to develope the 100 m load + I'll be testing the original. I think I will have to modify the rearsight of the repro.

[Blair]

Nemeth, aka, Space Cowboy,

I too, thank you for a very well done video. Very informative on many levels.
Your English, in my opinion, was just fine! And that comes from someone who speaks American, not English.;-)

I have been working with the Distribution point here in the U.S. for the new Pedersoli line of firearms. Please, keep Richard Hemmerde informed as you are able. Richard will be sending these arms to the N-SSA SAC for approval. I hope I am able to assist Richard in this endeavor as best I can.
Thank you,
Blair

[Space Cowboy]

Thanks Blair! Good to hear about the progress! Please keep me informed if you have any info about the approval. Every info is vital to Pedersoli.
SC

ps: Nemeth is my family name, call me just Balázs :)

[Blair]

Balazs,

I would be pleased to. Thank you.

As the U S Distributer of these new arms, Richard, is in a very much need to know status.
I hope to be able to get with Richard, so he and I can go over these arms before they are submitted for approval.
Should you or the Pedersoli family have a need to know more, please, either contanct Richard for additional info or myself by my e-mail at, btaylor18@cfl.rr.com for additional info.
Again, thank you,
Blair

[Damon]

Balázs,
have you had an opportunity to see Pedersoli's Model 1841 "Mississippi" rifle yet?

P.S. Thanks for the Model 1861 video, very well done.

[Space Cowboy]

Damon,

The next rifle in the line will be the 2 band Enfield. All the rest will follow in the next 1,5-2 years time, so I did not have a chance to shoot the Mississippi.

Best regards,
SC

[Damon]

Balázs,
was there a change in the production schedule for Pedersoli? Originally the time line suggested the Mississippi would be one of the first Civil War guns produced along with the Springfield 1861.

I think if the Pattern 1858 is next it will be a good thing as I would like to purchase one.

Damon

[Space Cowboy]

Damon,

Maybe you are right. I will check it at the factory.

Balázs

[Space Cowboy]

Damon,

I talked to Pierangelo today. He confirmed that the next rifle is the Enfield. They are planning to launch the 3rd model first, and later a 4th model as well. They are planning to launch historically authentic modells, so they are revorking the barrel, barrel bands, lock (hammer), stock, etc... The gun will be launched autumn-winter this year.

cheers,
SC

[Damon]

Balázs,
thanks for the update. It certainly sounds like Pedersoli are putting a lot of effort into these reproductions, rather than just producing what everyone else has in the past.

Regards,
Damon

[Space Cowboy]

Damon,

You've got the point: making the same as others do do not make a sense. Pedersoli's main adventage in my opinion is the barrel making. They know everything about making an accurate gun. Now they are improving in making historically accurate repros. If they can do it, the items will be unique on the market.

Balázs

[Mike McDaniel]

On a related subject, are the Pedersoli Philadelphia Derringers available yet?

[Maillemaker]

Boy this sure does sound encouraging and exciting!

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

Mike: they are already available. I suggest you to contact your local dealer!

[Blair]

Balazs,

I heard that they were going to use button rifling in their ACW arms.
This has been done before with very mixed results.
Perhaps you can shed some light on this subject?
Blair

[Space Cowboy]

Blair,

With the new barrels they use brooch rifling as far as I know, but I will get confirmation on this from Pierangelo. I would say 99% that it is not button rifled, but I will check.

Balázs

[Blair]

Balazs,

Thank you.
I was actually hoping it may have just been a misunderstanding in the terminology.
Or, at the vary least a variation in the wants of the reenacter community, compared to the competitive Shooters needs.
Blair

[Space Cowboy]

Blair,

I just the received the info from the factory, that the barrels are button rifled, but not in the traditional way. The process is the following:

The process is done on the same machine as with the broach rifling. They do the same operations as they do with the borach rifled barrels:

1. drilling the hole + reaming at the correct dimension
2. lapping inside
3. lapping outside
4. straightening 2 times
5. first button through the barrel
6. second type of button through the barrel
7. installation of breach + muzzle crow + etc..

I hope this info helps.


Best regards,
Balázs

[Blair]

Balazs,

Thanks again.

My understanding from the past, is that the button, pulled through the barrel, to cut full depth first time tends to stress hardened the barrel steel.
I truly hope making several passes helps reduce these stresses.
How is this going to work out with the primes of Progressive Depth Rifling? Will that still be possible?

[Space Cowboy]

The progressive depth rifling - in my understanding - cannot be done with button rifling. The grooves of the progressive depth rifling are cut one by one, so if Pedersoli decides to make such barrels, it must be broach rifling, no button. The most important difference between the two rifling methods is the with the button rifling the tool does not remove (cut) material from the bore, it presses the grooves into the metal. During the broach rifling process a tool cuts out the material of the grooves.

The bad reputation of the button rifling is caused by the cheap gun producing methods, where the process starts with a 4-5 m long metal pipe, that is cut into necassary length pieces, and then rifled. This is the easiest, and cheapest method.

Pedersoli starts with drilling the hole into the metal cut to the necessary lenght + 20 cm. (after the lapping is done 10 cm from the muzzle, and 10 cm from the breech is cut down, as the diameter of this parts are usally a bit bigger than the other parts of the bore.) The repeated straightening procedures are necessary to remove the stress from the bore. If it is not done correctly before the rifling, that is a problem.

[Blair]

Balazs,

I think it is the old idea of "cheap" gun production methods that may have many here rather skidish.
"Cheap" methods but at a higher finished cost? Hum?
I know it does with me! But then again, I can't speek for anyone else.
I truly hope this button rifling thing workes out well for Pedersoli.
Blair

[Maillemaker]

From what I've been reading about rifling techniques, button rifling forms the grooves, as opposed to cutting. This has the advantage of leaving behind a mirror smooth finish. It also results in less wear on the tool, which can result in more consistency in manufacturing caused by tool wear. It does build up stress in the barrel, which, if unrelieved, will result in the barrel changing shape during courses of fire and impacting accuracy. But the barrels can have these stresses relieved. There are some high-end barrels that are made using button rifling.

Steve

[Night Raider]

Fellas, I'm brand new here. But I've been on other shooting/hunting forums and this is the first one where I've actually seen/read such a detailed discourse between members and a manufacturer "insider." Hope ya'll appreciate what you got here with Space Cowboy/Balazs. Gives me a real good impression of Pedersoli, as a company, and I'm further impressed with the people who work for them.

Now, having said all that, I'm really interested in hunting deer and elk with the guns so I can't comment much on the whole "defarb" issue. If the gun carries well in the mountains and shoots straight and looks good, I'm interested. I've not had the opportunity to walk into a local sporting goods store and handle these guns, but managed to shoulder a used Hy Hunter Zouave recently and found it's 13-1/2" length of pull way more comfortable fitting to me than my TC Hawken's 14-1/2" LOP. I'm tired of putting up with ill-fitting guns, so my query to Mr. Balazs is: could Pederoli put on their web site the dimensions and weights (in inches and pounds) of their guns? It would help someone without access to the guns make a decision on what fits and doesn't. Thanks.

[Blair]

Night Raider,

I very much agree with you.

I have been involved with the repro arms community for sometime now, and I have never experianced this kind of open disclosure of a manufacture in the past.
I am very excited about the open minded exchange of information Pedersoli has exibited thus far on the Military types of arms. I can't speek for the civilian types. These are not an area of specific intrest to me on this forum or at this time.
Blair

[Space Cowboy]

Night Raider, Blair,

Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it, but I think there is nothing specaial about it. I am nothing more than a shooter/historian, who is lucky to have his hobby as a job. :)

Pedersoli improved much more than other replica manufacturers in the past 50 years because they listened to the people who use their arms. Pedersoli guns are the most expensive on the market, but they win far the most medals on international competitions (last MLAIC World Champs: 50+ medals!!). Learning from the present and future customers, hearing and understaning complaints is a must for a premium company. So I am the one who must thank you for your comments.

Cheers,
SC

[Space Cowboy]

Night Raider,

The basic data ara posted on the website (weight, barrel length, total length). I am not sure they can publish further data, but if you need info on a particular gun, let me know, and I'll help.

cheers,
SC

[Night Raider]

Thanks SC. I'm looking forward to reviewing your line of Civil War guns as they become available. Is there a Pedersoli distributor in Northern California, USA?

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Shooters,

I just talked to Mr. Pierangelo Pedersoli. He confirmed that in October the first pieces of the Enfield rifles will be available. All metal parts are ready, now they are designing the 100% new stock. I'll keep you updated.

cheers,
SC

[Space Cowboy]

Thanks SC. I'm looking forward to reviewing your line of Civil War guns as they become available. Is there a Pedersoli distributor in Northern California, USA?

Night Raider,

Here is the list of US distributors. I suggest you to contact the closest one.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/distributori-nazione.asp/l_en/idarea_3/idsottoarea_224/distributors-united%20states.html

SC

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Space Cowboy
Do you know or have any idea if Pedersoli will re-pro the Jagerstutzen?

[Damon]

Space Cowboy,
will you be able to do a youtube review of the Enfield when it arrives similar to your review of the Springfield Model 1861?

Damon

[Space Cowboy]

Ron: As far as I know, it is not in production plan. The civil war line is the most important now. But if Pierangelo decided to have it, I'll lend him my original to copy.
Damon: I will receive one of the first rifles for testing. I will surely do that video. I will just have to find an original for comparsion. The only I have is my frined's rifle, but that's a 3 groove contractor 2 band rifle produced for the Volunteer cors of GB.

cheers,
SC

[Damon]

SC,
please let us know when you do that youtube review. I really enjoyed the Springfield '61 one you posted a link to.

Thanks,
Damon

[Space Cowboy]

Damon,
I will be visiting the factory on the 7th Nov. I'll take my camerea with me of course, and if we'll have a rifle ready, I'll test it at Pedersoli's 50 m test range.
Cheers,
SC

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Friends,

I just returned today from gardone, from the Pedersoli factory, and made you a short interview with Mr. Pedersoli about the new Enfield. He clarified many previous issues. Hope I could provide some valuable info!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt3nX2ev0og

Cheers,
SC

[Maillemaker]

Great news!! They are changing from 4th model to 3rd model!

Steve

[Maillemaker]

This is very nice, thanks for the video!

They claim a basically a complete redesign of the musket. The barrel will be contoured (belled) as per the original. They are re-shaping the stock as per the original. They are changing the wood to American Walnut, which is not the correct wood, but will result in a more authentic weight. They are changing the hammer. And they are going to be including some kinds of "authentic" stampings on the arm.

I am excited about this arm.

Steve

[Blair]

I am also excited that this new arm will be offered to the Hungarians before "we" get it here in America... Where the ACW was actually fought.
Sorry for my acerbic nature, it is simply a thought on my part,
Blair

[Space Cowboy]

One more video for you today. Have you ever thought about why Pedersoli guns are winning so many medals on international level (last World Champs 50 medlas for example)? Well here is some secret info for you, how Pedersoli makes accurate barrels. The process you see here is the same they use for all the civil war rifle-musket line. This process makes the difference. This is basically why their rifles cost a bit more then the competitors' rifles. They do not just simply button rifle the bore, but spend a lot of time with the heart of the rifle.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOo-muzMRp0&amp;feature=youtu.be

[Space Cowboy]

Blair,

I understand your concerns about this problem. But there is one thing you have to understand also. For Pedersoli the American customers and the US market is the most important, they fight for every single gun to push out to the stores in your country. It is not the decision of Pedersoli when you meet the gun in your local gunshop. Unfortunately this question is completely in the hands of the trade... Pedersoli does everything he can to give you the rifle immediately, all other countries come after the US. But he cannot override the trade rirght now.

The good point is that IFG is starting, and this company will make a stronger market presence in the US, and will be able to serve the customers better, more convenient way, and faster then anytime before. So don't be afraid, I'll maybe shoot the first prototype for testing, and to write about it, to find out it's benefits and limitations, but the US market will receve the very first batch of every civil war rifle.

cheers,
SC

[Blair]

Space Cowboy,

Please understand, this is not something that, I personally, am afraid of.
I feel safe in telling you that this is something that many reenacters are very concerned with.
I have told the IFG Rep. here in the U. S. of this info. Let us wait and see what he has to offer to this equation, if anything?

Blair

[GPM]

Space Cowboy,
To my knowledge this is the first time any of the Italian makers have made changes to their product on advice from the American market. Many on this board and others have shared information and my hat is off to them. But, this information has been shared before with zero results.
The difference this time was having someone like you as a go between. Even if the changes are not met with 100% approval, I think the skirmish/re-enactor community owes you a sincere thanks for your time and effort.

[Space Cowboy]

GPM,

Thanks for the kind words. In fact I also think that this is the first occassion, but I am too young to say this for 100 %. :) Pedersoli is the last one of the big names to enter the civil war rifle musket business, so the company must do something special, different if he wants to compete on the market. DP guns are higher priced than any other guns on the market because of the longer manufacturing processes, better raw materials, etc.. To sell these guns they must understand the customer, and they must make the customers understand why is there a price difference.

I really hope that this project will be a success.

cheers,
SC

[Damon]

Thanks SC for the video and please thank Mr Pedersoli for doing the interview.

[matt]

Very good info and very insightful into how much time is spent with the barrels themself. Im not much of an Enfield shooter but would be willing to try this one.
Matt

[Maillemaker]

I think that Pedersoli had a unique opportunity here with Euroarms bowing out. I know I emailed the Pedersoli web site myself a few times with things that I would like to see as a result of this changeover. I pointed them to Geoff Walden's "defarbing" article. It is also great that we have folks like SC bringing our voice to the manufacturer, and I'm sure others, like Blair, have also.

I think it was critically important that Pedersoli do something besides just re-issue the Euroarms weapon at Pedersoli prices, and it looks like they are doing so.

I've probably spent $1500 on getting my Euroarms P53 to shoot right, and it still needs to be blued with its new naked Whitacre barrel.

I may not bother putting any more money into it. I may just spring for a Pedersoli 1853 instead! I really want to support a company that has gone to such lengths to satisfy its target market!

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

For me it is a simple frustration factor!
Knowing Pedersoli has made some changes to some of the arms coming out of the old EoA line up... but, not having enough info to know the details of just what those changes are.
This frustration causes me to be a bit more than a little testy at time.

[Maillemaker]

We'll know soon enough. :)

[BerdanSharps]

I was very happy to hear form Mr Pedersoli that they will change the shape of stock and hammer. I trust Pedersoli very much since my beloved DP 1859 Berdan Sharps rifle is made very close to the original.
I am sure we won't be disappointed!

salute

[Space Cowboy]

Blair,

There are so many things nowdays to be frustrated of: economical crisis, Iran making an atombomb, increasing crime, etc... let's not be frustrated about this project. I'll try to give you as many info as possible. In the meantime let's drink a cup of good Hungarian palinka to ease the pain of waiting. (It's much better then any Italian grappa for sure, just don't tell this to the Pedersoli stuff :) ).

cheers,
Balázs

[Damon]

Balázs,
do you know if Pedersoli is set on the firearms they are going to produce? It would be good to have a reproduction Pattern 1856 short rifle and Pattern 1860 Sergent's rifle instead of the Pattern 1858 Naval rifle (The P'58 is a great rifle but in terms of the Civil War a Pattern 1856 and Pattern 1860 would be more correct).

Damon

[Blair]

Damon,

I, for one would agree with you on the P-1856 short Infantry Rifle. (drop the Sea Service P-1858 Rifle altogether)
The P-1856 Rifle is an all iron/steel furniture two band Rifle length firearm.
That same furniture, cast in brass, will serve well for making up a more correct pattern Cook & Brother Rifle and carbine. (most properly in the long trigger guard)
However, none of us will know just what has been done (accepted) until they are here, and we can see what has been done.
I say that at the risk of being precieved or sounding like the ever petulant child waiting for Christmas morning to open gifts.

Blair

[Maillemaker]

It's too bad these won't be out until after Christmas! :)

Steve

[Damon]

Blair,
I know one reason they will keep the P'58 Naval rifle, they are great shooters. I personally think they would be better to drop the P'61 artillery carbine, which basically never existed in issued form and go with the P'1856 short army (sergent's)rifle. The P'56 at least has a strong tracaeable link to the ACW and would be popular with shooters and reenactors.


Damon

[jsableghorn]

Can anyone tell me where I would be able to purchase a P'58 Naval rifle? I have never been to any events but have been following this thread and trying to learn along the way. I made a trip to Gettysburg for the first time this past August and have become very interested in the N-SSA and these beautiful rifles. I am just looking for a little guidance please.

Thank you, Jon

[Muley Gil]

"Can anyone tell me where I would be able to purchase a P'58 Naval rifle?"

There have been several for sale on this forum. IMHO, the best one available at this time is the English built Parker-Hale. They are not in production, but are out there. Check the various Civil War forums and GunBroker too.

[jsableghorn]

Thank you Gil. I appreciate the suggestion and will start searching.

Jon

[BerdanSharps]

Hello,

I found these (fairly small) pictures of the new Pedersoli 3-Band Enfield in Civil War Talk, posted by Craig L Barry:

"Here are a few images from Pedersoli of their new P53 Enfield "proto-type." The lock is Tower 1861 marked, the lock plate washers are correct and the barrel proofs look decent. At least at this stage it still has the incorrect sling swivels and case colored barrel bands like the Armi-Sport, not sure why that is because it would be cheaper and more historically accurate to blue them. The barrel is .577."

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/new-pedersoli-enfield-pics.61899/#post-392600

There are a few things like trigger shape, stock finish, rugged lock engravings and shape of barrel around piston that are still incorrect.. but as it is just a prototype, I am pleased with it so far.
What do you think?

[Dave Fox]

I've sent Pedersoli an inquiry and am awaiting a reply. In another forum (Shiloh Sharps) it was rather authoritatively asserted Pedersoli was going to reproduce the defunct and dearly lamented Lyman Sharps ringtail mould #557489. Any word on this happy rumor?

[Maillemaker]

Looks cool to me so far - wish there were more and bigger pictures!

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

E-mail me and I will forward you the large images Mr. Barry sent to me.
btaylor18@cfl.rr.com

[Craig L Barry]

By far Pedersoli is the best in terms of historical accuracy in terms of what the Italians have produced
so far. If you want it "right" in historical feature accuracy it will still need some work. I will have one in
hand shortly and can give it a more thorough going over, but from the images alone, if they make a few minor
stock and hardware changes Pedersoli should have a fine looking P53 rifle-musket.

The two band 'short' rifle is a bit of a disappointment, Pedersoli went with the P58 Naval Rifle vs the
much more commonly encountered P56. Not sure why, maybe the rifling?

[John Holland]

Having spent a lifetime in a manufacturing industry I can tell you why they went with the P-58 Naval Rifle. Cost savings, plain and simple. They use all the same parts they already have on hand for their P-53. They probably feel the costs of tooling design and set up are not worth it. It takes a lot of arms sold to offset the initial investment. The N-SSA would support a P-56, but the reenacting community would not, with the reason being explained to me that short rifles are quite usually banned from events because of shooting in ranks.

JDH

[Blair]

John,

The reasoning you suggest is no doubt the most accurate assessment from a manufacturing point of view.

However, as you and I have discussed, there are options available to the Italians that will enable them to get the maximum usage out of their initial retooling investments.
Example: Two or perhaps even three guns out of one by simply changing some of the furniture. Some of this furniture maybe cast in brass or iron. Correcting the shrink rate between these two materials can be corrected at the manufacturing level so as to be interchangeable. In the past, the Italians have not been open to this concept. The point here is working within the N-SSA SAC Spec Sheets for these various arms.
The good news here is that Pedersoli seems to be very open minded about such potential interchangeabilities of such component parts and pieces.
All I can hope to do at this point, is perhaps, offer some influence towards making such potential changes. 'We' Will just have to wait and see how this works out.
Blair

[Craig L Barry]

Pedersoli will be making an Enfield Musketoon, which I believe uses similar hardware
to the P56 with regard to placement of rear swivels, trigger guard, &c. I thought---and this is
just my impression---that it was the 1:48 twist on the P58 and there was already a built in
market for them among "shooters." Pedersoli considers live fire enthusiasts their
primary market and wants their offerings accurate enough for (re)enactors "too."

And no doubt it utilizes more of the P53 hardware so it would be less costly to
produce that way.

[Blair]

The P-56, Short Infantry Rifle uses all iron/steel furniture. (Nose cap, butt plate, trigger guard and side lock washers)
Aside from the use of iron furniture, the P-56's trigger guard is also quite long compared to the other patterns of Enfield type/like arms.
An American made variation of this type arm, using all brass furniture (instead of iron) is the Cook & Brother Rifle. The key here with the C&B Rifle is in the long trigger guard.
Should these parts and pieces be manufactured where the iron and brass parts were interchangeable with each other... some very savvy individual could use these parts and pieces to make/manufacture two very different types of firearms with very few alterations/modifications between the two arms except for the metal the furniture is cast in!
Just an idea regauding my line of thought on this subject of interchangeability of 'new' made arms,
Blair

[Southron Sr.]

Differences Between the P-56 & P-60 Enfields:

From a manufacturing point of view, it would be easier [and much better] to manufacture a replica of the P-60 rather than a P-56. Here is why:

STOCK CHANGES:

The P-60 uses the same barrel as the P-58, hence the ONLY changes required to the stock making machinery that makes the P-58 stocks would be that the length of the trigger plate channel would have to be made longer to accommodate the P-60's longer trigger plate.

Conversely, manufacturing a P-56 would require TWO changes to the stock: [1] Making the length of the trigger plate channel longer. [2] Changing the stock's barrel channel as the barrel on the P-56 is tapered more towards the muzzle.

FURNITURE CHANGES:

None, as both the P-56 and P-60 use IRON furniture [nose cap, trigger guard/plate and butt plate] that for all practical purposes are identical.

BARREL CHANGES:

Since the P-60 uses a barrel that is IDENTICAL to the P-58, no barrel channel changes in the stock would be required. The P-56 has a barrel taper that is different, hence this is another needless change and needless expense the manufacturer would have to bear to make the P-56.

ACCURACY:

The British Army ABANDONED the P-56 because it was less accurate than either the P-58 or the P-60. The P-60 [along with the P-58] are the MOST ACCURATE of all the muzzleloading Enfields.

The P-58 & P-60 are superbly accurate because they use the heavy barrel with the 5 groove, 1 in 48" twist. The P-56 does not.

[Blair]

Southeron SR.

I agree.
Now, what 'we' need to do is convince the Italians!
From what I understand the Naval Rifle will come with 1-48 rate of twist. I am not sure at the number of grooves at this time. But will let you know when I know for sure.
Question, what will give the Italians cause to make a more accurate (authentic) Cook & Brother Rifle? How about showing them how they can make one Rifle into More than one Rifle?
Could the P-56, P-60 and the C&B Rifle become, perhaps, THREE rifles from one basic pattern?
I think it could. If 'we' show them the way. And, it seems to me, that Pedersoli is very reseptive to this idea/concept at this time!

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Blair:

I really don't believe any Italian manufacturer will come out with a Cook & Brother, two band rifle simply because the re-enactment community
pretty well discourages re-enactors from using two band rifles.

From a manufacturers point of view, the company would be better off manufacturing a replica of the three band Austrian Rifle. Both Re-enactors and Skirmishers would purchase a high quality replica of a three band Austrian.

[Blair]

Southeron Sr.

I think an Austrian type firearm maybe something that may take place somewhere down the line. That would require a completely new set of tooling. I'm not sure a complete set of tooling would be a practical manufacturing benefit to DP at this time.

Right now, Pedersoli does have a Cook & Brother in the planning. Not sure if it will be the Carbine or the Rifle just yet. (I am hopping it will be the Rifle)
The Carbine has not been approved within the N-SSA as of yet. This is primarily due to the vast amount of variations within surviving examples.
However, the N-SSA does have an Athens, GA. made variant of the C&B Rifle approved. If DP fallows the spec sheets, they should be able to make this work out with a minimum of tooling changes. It will require the long trigger guard and, of course, the all brass furniture. As for the rate of twist?... I have no idea what-so-ever. I've never had the chance to check out an original C&B Rifle.
Blair

[Southron Sr.]

Ah, Yes...the old Cook & Brother Rifle and Armory.

For the record, the Cook & Brother factory building in Athens, GA is still standing. Matter of fact, over the years it has housed a variety of industrial manufacturing enterprises. After the war, the armory was defunct and the well constructed building was expanded to house a cotton mill. The last time I was there (about 20 years ago) the building housed a Johnson & Johnson Band Aid factory (kind of "ironic" for a building that was originally constructed to house an armory!)

Right across the street from the old Cook & Brother factory building is a historic marker erected by the State of Georgia that proudly proclaims [probably due to local pride]that the "finest rifles in the Confederacy" were manufactured there during the war. Having owned two original Cook & Brother guns, they were far from being "the finest rifles (and carbines) manufactured in the Confederacy."

Across the creek and up the hill a bit, on another road, but within sight of the old Cook & Brother Armory stood another "Athens City Legend." This was the historic and now long lamented "Effie's Cat House." Snif...Snif...Snif... You see, Athens is a "College Town" and the little city basically revolves around the University of Georgia which is the biggest employer in Clarke County.

What can I say, no one knew just how old an establishment Effie's was-it might have even gone back to the Civil War days! I do know that many a college co-ed "worked her way thru college" working at Effie's. The Bouncers were reputedly off duty, Athens Policeman. Anyway during football and basketball season, Effie's was very busy. Fans and out of towners went to Effie's to either celebrate UGA winning football or basketball games OR went to Effie's for consolation after a grid iron or basketball court loss. Faternities also kept the establishment busy when school was in session.

Anyway, when I worked for Euroarms of America back in the mid-1970's I talked the company owner, Louie Amadi to manufacture a replica to the Cook & Brother Carbine. I pretty well had Louie talked into stamping "Athen's Georgia" on the replica C & B lockplates but, Bill Edwards, who had written "Civil War Guns" and was a good friend of Louie going back to the late 1950's, recommended instead the New Orleans lockplate marking be copied on the replica guns, and so it came to be. I offered to loan Louie Amadi my original Cook & Brother Carbine so he could carry it back to Armi San Paolo so the stock could be copied exactly. Louie turned me down.

Oh yes, Effie's.....In the mid-1970's a new band director was assigned to run the Athens Salvation Army. When he found about Effie's he was mortified, outraged because there was the possibility that beer (and/or rum) was being served to Effie's customers. He started holding band concerts on the vacant lot in front of Effie's and invited the local press to cover his "War against Demon Rum."

Well, to make a long story short, after a media blitz, the Mayor and City Council acted "Shocked, Shocked, Shocked" that a cat house was actually operating in Athens. So Effie's was shut down. Of course, no one considered the fact that the girls at Effie's lost their well paying jobs and had to literally "make ends meet" [financially] by getting low paying jobs as waitresses or cooks in local restaurants. I could go on, but I digress.

I will close by saying that the Cook & Brother Armory is still standing, having out lasted the Confederacy by almost a Century & a Half, not to mention Effie's! The Cook Brothers would be proud if they knew what a sturdy building that they built!

P.S. A persistent rumor is that in the 1930's when the armory building was being expanded, several hundred gun barrels were found in the attic of the old armory building. They were laid out by workers and concrete poured over them to form the floor of the new section of the building. Those old barrels, acted as "re-bar" in the new floor and are supposedly still locked in that concrete floor!

[R Filbert]

Fellow makes a good point if you are going to make reproductions do them as accuratly as possible-This would mean as exact as you can-not coming off the line feeling lke your holding a 2x4 contoure is important to me-as nothing feels like an origianal! Parker hales did a good job as I have put all origianal parts on this musket W/little to no problem.Lets keepum rite and not produce clunkers!

[Bill Osby 12083]

Anyboby seen the Enfield yet? Or heard anything on when they"ll hit the market?

[Blair]

Bill,

I have not been able to get a hands-on with any of them just yet.
I have seen some photos and, on a whole, they look pretty good. Some correction were suggested, the modified or corrected parts were hand carried to the Shot Show and change out. I think this says a lot about Pedersoli attention to historical details.
I hope to get a chance to view them sometime in the near future and will report what I find out.
Blair

[William Schoenfeld, 1386]

Blair,
What does it look like for distribution in the US for the Springfield and other models? Rumor had it at the last National that Dixie Guns would have them by Christmas. Also has anyone presented the Springfield to the board? Any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks
Dutch
Mosby Rangers

[Blair]

Dutch,

What I have is the M-1861 that Pedersoli had before the buy out was EoA finished out by Pedersoli and had been approved by the N-SSA. There is no plan on resubmitting it. (I would still like to get a look at it and see if there are improvements I can recommend.)
The P-53 RM and P-58 Rifle is being changed into the 3rd Pattern Birmingham Trade variation. So far these are looking pretty good but will have to be resubmitted for production approval, along with the Richmond and the M-1841 Rifle.
I don't know what all has been changed on the last two firearms as of yet. Most of the request for info have focused on the Enfield type arms.

All the normal imports will be carrying them when they are finally into full production. (maybe with the next couple of months?)
The U S distributer will be the Italian Firearms Group (IFG). Their home office is only about 15 miles from where I live here in FL.
I hope you find this helpful?
Blair

[Blair]

To all,

Just as a side note here, those of you that wish to see the photos of the new Enfield, please e-mail me with your request.
I will reply with the images attached.
Thanks,

[William Schoenfeld, 1386]

Blair,
Is the Springfield that is now approved the same type that Space Cowboy did a video on? PLease send me the pictures at mosby1862@cox.net.
Thanks
Dutch

[Blair]

Dutch,

To my knowledge the '61 Springfield "Space Cowboy" used in his video was one of the earlier ones made by EoA but finished by Pedersoli.
This is one of the reasons why I want to get a look at them and offer suggestions for improvements.

Hang on, I'll sent the the photos of the Enfields in just a moment,

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Blair,The Springfield I used was new DP manufacture, but not the last version. There were some minor changes on the stock after the video was done.Best,SC

[Blair]

Space Cowboy,

Thank you.
I suspected this but was not sure and did not want to miss direct people with the info I currently have on hand. And there is not much on anything other than the Enfield at this time.

Sorry, did not post my e-mail address
btaylor18@cfl.rr.com

[Space Cowboy]

I will be visiting the factory in a few weeks again, and I'll make you some video coverage of the progress. In the meantime I hope to receive the first test version with our next shipment.

I'll keep you informed!

Best regards,
SC

[Blair]

Space Cowboy,

The video's you have produced in the past have been very informative and well done.
I would very much like to see any additional ones you produce and addition information would share with us.
Thanks,

[Maillemaker]

I love your videos and can't wait to see a video review of the new Enfield!

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

Thanks guys! I am really excited to try that rifle as well, and it will be documented for sure.

On the meantime pls check some other videos.

Pedersoli Remington testing:

http://youtu.be/M3cHmmjct8U

The next is not Pedersoli, but the comparsion of an Uberti 1860 to an original with some shooting tests:

http://youtu.be/k0wlIyCQJuw

And some tutorial on how to make combustible envelope cartridges for a percussion revolver:

http://youtu.be/eUBrI0jKiuQ

Best,
SC

[Space Cowboy]

Enfield update: the first batch will be ready in March. I reserved one for sure for testing from the first pieces. I also hope to make video about it at IWA show in Nürnberg.

[Maillemaker]

Can't wait for the Enfield review!

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Great videos. Makes me want to run out and by a Uberti 1860!

I also like the cartridge making video, however your link at the end that is supposed to show you shooting them is unclickable.


Steve

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Steve,
Here is the video about the testing of the paper cartridges:

http://youtu.be/NNF5BgNvqOo
Cheers,
SC

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Space Cowboy

How do you make the nitrate papers or do you buy them already made? If you make them, what for paper do you use? How do you get the shape? and what do you use to nitrate them and how? I tried to make nitrate papers for my Sharps by using writing paper and socking them in saltpeter. They shot good but did not burn clean and left a lot of residue in the chamber. Your cartridges looked liked they burned up completely.

PS. I never thought a 1860 Colt could group that good. I never got really serious with the one I have. But I will now.

[Space Cowboy]

Ron,

I use also saltpetre. I add as many to the cup of water it can take. The paper I use is very thin paper used for printing invoices. The quality of the papaer makes the difference. The more artificial chemicals it has, the more residue it leaves in the chamber. try something: ignite a modern color magazine page, than find an old magazine black and white newspaper from the 70s-80s. You will see the difference. The old paper will burn completeley and quickly because it is made of only natural ingredients. So experiment with different papers.

To be honest, the video was made after firing the first six shots. Later that day I shot about 30 cartridges, and there were a few (2-3) that left some residue in the chamber.

I was also surprised on the accuracy of the old and the repro Colt. As I am a precision target shooter, I always used sold frame revs. The secret of the Colt is in the axis and the wedge. I usally hammer back the wedge after each shot, so it holds the barrel with the same force with every shot.

Be careful with the repros: if you have a chance measure the diameter of the chamber and the groove to groove diameter of the bore. The cylinder must size the ball at least to the groove to groove dia of the bore. Or 0,001-0,002" stronger.

Cheers,
SC

[Maillemaker]

That is really cool! I always wondered how those "cartridges" worked. I did not know that they literally dropped in, paper and all, into the chamber. For some reason I always throught you tore off the ball and dumped in the powder like with long arms.

Now it makes sense how a revolver could be loaded in combat!

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

There were cartridges of the style of the rifle muskets as well. But as far as I know (according to Dean S. Thomas's excellent books on this topic) the majority of the catridges used were combustible envelope cartridges, compressed powder cartridges and seamless skin cartridges.

One more thing: the cartridge i used looks like the original combustible envelope cartridges, but it's my design. The original could be something very simmilar, but I havent seen an original in real life yet to check.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Space Cowboy

Thanks for the Info.
I thought of using rice paper but I don't know if you can buy it anymore, I have not seen it in years. As for the 60 Colt a number years back I thought of drilling a hole just ahead of the wedge and threading it and putting in a set screw to tighten on the arbor to keep the barrel from moving. But I never got up enough nerve to try it. I thought I might screw up a good revolver.

[BerdanSharps]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPiXpooOlY0
Nice close-up view of the new enfield at 0:44.
Seems like we have to live with the old shape of the bolster around the piston and the old trigger (I'd buy an original one from IMA), but that's okay for me.

[Blair]

BerdanSharps,

Nice closeup like you suggested, but too dark to get much real detail. (what is this "piston" you mention in "bolster around the piston"?)
You may like what you see from IMA.
I believe I'll will invest my money with something I can use for shooting... safely! This is just my opinion of course.

[Maillemaker]

http://i.imgur.com/WmxzG.jpg
I have punched up the brightness and contrast to bring out some detail.

Can't wait to see some good footage from Space Cowboy!

Off the top of my head, here is what I see (and I am no expert on this stuff by any means):

They seem to have an engraved line around the perimeter of the lock plate, which is appropriate when you have the double-engraved line around the hammer. I cannot make out if it is a double-line around the perimeter of the lock plate. It should be.
(The Civil War Musket - Lock Stock and Barrel pg. 133)

The hammer appears larger and more correct in shape than the old Euroarms hammer.
(The Civil War Musket - Lock Stock and Barrel pg. 133)

The lock plate appears to have the Crown behind the hammer, and something over "Tower" in front of the hammer. Hopefully this is an appropriate date over Tower. This would be appropriate for a Birmingham Small Arms Trade Enfield.
(The Civil War Musket - Lock Stock and Barrel pg. 127)

The rear sling swivel appears to be the correct "bell" shape (The Civil War Musket - Lock Stock and Barrel pg. 136)

The trigger seems a little off in shape from originals to my eye.

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

All of these are very good point, and from my knowledge are correct things to look for or look at.
But... oh yea the ever present "but"... how is the rear sight base marked?
One can not see this on either the two or three band pattern.
A very little thing I know. But if you want to get it approved by the N-SSA SAC... one should find out?
(Keep in mind the N-SSA is a Shooting organization)

[Maillemaker]

I'm making the assumption that this will be as acceptable to the N-SSA as the Euroarms it is decendant from. I know Pedersoli takes competition shooting seriously and so I am assuming that they will be intending for these arms to be N-SSA legal.

So my interest at this point is what corrections they may have made to the arm in terms of correcting many of the anachronisms in the Euroarms Enfield.

You are right that there are many details that cannot yet be discerned and I can't wait for Balázs' video review.

We can't make out any details on the sight. I think, but cannot be sure, that the bands look like correct Palmer-style bands. We can't see the lock plate washers. We can't see the proof marks on the barrel. This is but a small tease! :)

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

I will try to report on all of these things, once I get a chance to actually hold/view the arms as they come in.
I also hope I get the chance to make suggestions as to, or for any corrections that maybe necessary/appropriate as I know (and, of course,) understand the N-SSA SAC rules may apply.

[Maillemaker]

Can't wait to hear your report!

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Tonight I received an email from Pedersoli announcing the new muskets available for sale.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/notizie-armi-dettaglio.asp/l_en/idne_43/silver-line-guns.html

They need better and more pictures on their web site, but for the Enfield, you can make out the cartouche on the stock.

Steve

[BerdanSharps]

BerdanSharps,

Nice closeup like you suggested, but too dark to get much real detail. (what is this "piston" you mention in "bolster around the piston"?)
You may like what you see from IMA.
I believe I'll will invest my money with something I can use for shooting... safely! This is just my opinion of course.

Oh my bad, with piston I meant nipple (in german it is piston).
And I only wanted to buy an original trigger from IMA, not the whole gun-
I already own a very nice IMA nepal enfield which I would never shoot with :)

I already bought a single trigger from IMA, fitted almost perfectly in my Armit Sport Enfield and looks much better,
so I bet it will fit in the Pedersoli too.

Edit: I'm pretty sure the engraving says 1862 Tower.
On the pic you can see what I meant with area around the nipple:
429

Salute

[GPM]

The bolster shape can vary greatly from one Enfield to another. Especially with the hand assembled arms imported during the Civil War.

[BerdanSharps]

Hello Space Cowboy,

Cool video with the new DP 2 and 3 band enfields (starting min 4:15):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jhKMJcVCbg&feature=plcp&context=C4f4ab0dVDvjVQa1PpcFMI7yy0HCE6ORyhyki8ODf8 WTmZMVHFi6Y=

I couldn't hear much of it, so could you please tell us how these fine looking rifle-muskets felt? :)

I'd like to know (If you were able to look at it that close)- with my Armi Sport Enfield I had some problems with the rear ladder sight: In the front it wiggled slightly which was deadly for the accuracy at 100 meters. I also had to weld shut the notch and file in a much smaller one.
What impression did the Pedersoli Enfield sight make to you?

It would be really great if you could test the 2 band enfield at 100 meters.

greetings

[Blair]

BerdanSharps,


A very high quality, authentic, Enfield rear sight is on its way to Pedersoli as I write this message.


I did have the chance to view and measure up the two "pilot" Enfield arms that were made up in time for the Shot Show this last January.
At the time I was able to view these arms, I was un aware that Pedersoli was already working on changes and improvements of those two "pilot" arms.
What was exhibited at the IWA 2012 Show in Germany were these very much improved arms. Refinements are still ongoing, as was suggested by Dr. Pierangelo Pedersoli in the video. Changes such as the rear sight.
None of these new improved arms have been received in the States at this time. I can not say at this time when will I get a chance to get in and view the new improved arms?

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Berdan Shaprps!

Thanks for linking my video. I tell you the truth? I did not check if the rear sight is loose or not. But I have not seen any Pedersoli rifles with loose rear sight, so I think that this problem will not exist on these rifles.

I'd really love to test them also. I am going to visit the factory again in early may. By that time they'll have the first test pieces!

Hi Blair!

The company worked a lot on the Enfield, and still there are some minor modifications needed (for example the placement of the rear bands).

I tested the two band Enfield, because I had bad memories with the Euroarms version. I was unable to make a good sight picture as the comb of the Euroarms stock was very high for me, while the original two bander of my friend was good for my body. I checked the pedersoli version, and have to say, it gives the same feeling as the original. It's promissing.

SC

[BerdanSharps]

Blair, Space Cowboy

thank you for the info, it is very nice to hear how much effort Pedersoli still puts into these guns. I'm really looking forward to see the final version of the enfield and another interesting video on the capandball channel!

greetings

[Maillemaker]

Any new information on the new Enfield?

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

I wish I had some news.
The last word I got was Pedersoli recieced the rear sight. After being tied up in Costoms for a little over two weeks.

[medic302]

does anyone know when the p53's will be available yet?

[Blair]

medic302,

Not yet!
Hopefully some time shortly after or around Spring Nationals?
Sorry, that is my best guess at this time.
I will post any up dates I get here first.

[Rebel Dave]

Cabelas already has some Pedersoli Civil war guns on thier site. Not cheap either.

Rebel Dave

[Blair]

Rebel Dave,

The Cabela Pedersoli arms you mention are probably arms that Pedersoli has been manufacturing right along.
The new line will involve the arms that Euroarms was making before they closed. (Pedersoli bought up the tooling from Euroarms)
This will include;
Within the Enfield line, P-1853 three band RM, P-1858 Short Naval Rifle, P-1861 Art. Carbine. These will all be based off the short stock, Birmingham made 3 rd Pattern variant.
An M-1861 Springfield (already N-SSA Approved).
A 1862 marked CS Richmond RM standard hump lock plate.
M-1841 Harpers Ferry Rifle, in .54 &.58 cal. (I do not know how these will be marked at this time)

None of this new "Silver Line", as Pedersoli is calling them, are in this country as of yet.
Blair

[Steve Weems]

Blair--My original BSAT P1853 3 band has the rear sight starting at 100yds---will the new ones be so marked? *Be nice not to*
have to modify the front sight for 100 yd shooting--Steve Weems

[Blair]

Steve,

The rear sight on the new "Silver Line" P-53 Enfield will be properly marked.
I do not know if Pedersoli will be changing or modifying the front sight to accomodate the point of aim with the rear sight graduations.
Just based on what kind of attention to detail Pedersoli has exibited with these new arms... I would say YES! they will be sighted to 100 meters/yards.
I hope this info helps answer your question.

[Damon]

Hi Blair,
Have you heard when a .54 version of the M1841 will be offered? The Pedersoli website only lists the .58 version at the moment.

Thanks,
Damon

[Blair]

Damon,

Wish I could say.
I don't know when the first shippement will come in.
Then there will be SAC approval, but that shouldn't take long.

[Space Cowboy]

Dear Shooters,

I jsut received some good news from the factory. Six PEdersoli civil war rifles are now approved by the NSSA Comittee:

S.221 Enfield 3 band P1853 rifle musket
S.220 Enfield 2 band P1858 short rifle
S.218 Enfield Musketoon P1861 short rifle
S.201 Mississippi US Model 1841 both in .54 and .58 calibers
S.205 Richmond 1861

Cheers,
SC

[Maillemaker]

Great news!

When can we get some detailed pictures?

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Maillemaker,

I have pics about the 2 bnd and 3 bnd Enfields from IWA, and asked for photos about the Enfield Musketoon and MIssissippi rifles.

Cheers
SC

[Maillemaker]

Hi SC, it's the 3-band Enfield I want to see. Can you post pictures?

Steve

[BerdanSharps]

Yes that would be great, the pictures of the 2band too, please :)
When will you get the Enfields for testshooting?

[mississippian_1861]

Anybody know how the weight and balance is on these new Enfields? One of my biggest problems with repro arms is that they just dont feel like the real thing.

[John Holland]

The weight and balance on the P-53 is much like an original P-53. The same goes for the P-58 and P-61.

JDH

[mississippian_1861]

So if I'm reading all this right then the new Enfield is the best out of the box repro we have now?

[John Holland]

What I stated is just my personal opinion after having handled them. You will have to handle them yourself to form your own opinion. You may not feel as I do about them. We all have our own criteria.

John

[Maillemaker]

I'm still itching to see pictures to see how authentic in appearance the new models are, and to see how many of the old inaccuracies have been corrected.

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Shooters,

Sorry for diasppearing for a few weeks. It's been a very-very busy time for me. To cut it short: I have the pics on my comuter, and will post it later today. So staye tuned!

cheers,
Balázs

[Maillemaker]

Eagerly waiting!

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Any update on the pictures?

Steve

[BerdanSharps]

I hope SC is all right... sooo close to the end of a long wait!

[medic302]

so, does this mean the rifles will be available soon?

[HardBall]

I've been lurking and watching this thread... Just a friendly bump.

[GPM]

There are five pics of the 1853 on the Pedersoli website.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_350/rifles-enfield-enfield-3-band-pattern-1853-rifle-musket.html

[GPM]

Also pics of the Richmond and 61 Springfield.

[Maillemaker]

Thanks GPM!

Here is what I see from the pictures. I am no expert on this. What I've learned I've mostly learned from Craig Berry's book.

The rifle appears to have the correct Palmer bands. These are noted by the "ears" on the belly of the bands that the screw passes through. The Baddley bands, with counter-bored holes that allow the ends of the screw to be recessed, as seen on Euroarms muskets, were mostly on government Enfields and few (though some) exported to the US had them.

The lock plate has double-line engraving to match the hammer engraving, which is typical for BSAT (Birmingham Small Arms Trade) Enfields.

The "1861 Tower" and crown markings on the lock plate are consistent for a BSAT Enfield.

The lock-screw washers have squared-off ears, as typical for commercial Enfields.

The BSAT cartouche on the stock appears to match one of the BSAT cartouches in his Barry's book, though some BSAT cartouches have two concentric circles as part of them.

It's difficult to make out details from the photos on the web sites, but the barrel proof markings look convincing from what is shown.

The fit of the rear sight looks poor in the picture shown.

All in all, it looks very encouraging to me. If they are accurate as the 1861 Springfield that Space Cowboy demonstrated on YouTube, they may be a good deal when one considers the price of buying a $600 reproduction and spending $500 on a new barrel and $300 to defarb it.

I bought a used Euroarms musket off of Gunbroker last year. It has been one heck of a school of hard knocks. I never could get the original barrel (with a .584 bore!) to shoot any kind of bullet or charge well, so I replaced the barrel with a Whitacre barrel. The internal lock pieces, namely the sear and tumbler, are soft and mushroomed until the weapon would not fire anymore - pulling the trigger would result in it dropping to half-cock. I have re-filed the sear and tumbler to good geometry and am going to try and case-harden them to prevent the problem in the future. And of course I have not done any defarbing to the musket yet. I bought the musket for "only" $495, but I've spent $500 on a barrel, and probably $200 in molds and sizers trying to find a bullet that would shoot in it worth a darn. So I'm already at least $1200 on a musket that, while it now shoots acceptable, still looks pretty beat up.

Steve

[medic302]

i'm getting excited, those pics look good!

[Damon]

A bit more information from the Pedersoli website:
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/notizie-armi-dettaglio.asp/l_en/idne_52/enfield-rifle--pattern-1853.html

[Maillemaker]

I want to buy one. I wonder when they will be available?

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Guys,

Just wanted to let you know that I have the first 2 band Pedersoli Enfield in my hand for testing. I received it on the MLAIC World Championships from Stephano PEdersoli. I am going to start the testing next week.

We have 2 shooters shooting original 2 band Enfields in our international team, so we did some comparsion immediately with the originals from the shooters' point of view. The feel, balance, sight picture of the rifle is very-very close to the original. I am not really into the defarb business, so for me the shooting parameters are high. But according to the first impressions my expectations are high. I checked the rifling with electronic endoscope, and have to say it is one of the smoothest I have ever seen. The grooves and lands as like mirror, so I beleiwe this gun will be much more resistant to fouling than the previous Euroarms models. I also have one of the last unfired Euroarms 2band Enfield rifle in my store. If anyone is interested I can make the video comparsion of the two guns to see the differences.

Cheers,
SC

ps: It was very good to meet the US international team members in Pforzheum, especially Ed Shneeman, Frank Kapper, Don Dixon, etc... We hade long-long talks about Lorenz rifles, that I really enjoyed.

[Space Cowboy]

I want to buy one. I wonder when they will be available?

Steve

Steve,

The guns are out on the market I confirm. The majority of the first batch was sent to trhe US. Check your dealer, and push him to order from the distributors.

SC

[medic302]

awesome! i'm calling around tomorrow!

space cowboy please do the comparison video between the euroarms and the pedersoli!

[Space Cowboy]

Ok, I will do it!

[Maillemaker]

I also would love to see the comparison video.

Glad to see you back around, SC! I was wondering where you had gotten off to!

I called the main Pedersoli distributor here in the US (flintlocks etc) and they said they would not have them for a couple of months yet.

Steve

[Mike McDaniel]

SC was at Worlds. Which are a full-time activity, between shooting, cleaning guns, pouring loads, and talking to people.

I had the chance to handle one of the Enfields at the Pedersoli booth, and it looked pretty good.

[medic302]

i called cherry's and dixie this morning. cherry's told me they would have them sometime in sept and dixie told me to call back next week.

[Blair]

To all...

The most current USA impoter contact I have is,
"The Italian Firearms Group" aka, (IFG) @,
114 Hawk St. Rockledge, FL. (sorry, I don't have a zip code)
phone # is 321-639-4842 (ask for Sharon)

I hope you can get more info with direct contact to the actual importer!?
Blair

[medic302]

i called IFG today as well, they told me to expect them (enfields) in late september.

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Guys,

I have a really hard 6 monthes behind me. :) I got my second university degree in July, finalized a book about Austro-Hungarian tube lock arms (will be published on 6th October ofically), prepared for the Wold Champs (not much success unfortunately), and of course in the meantime I had to reorganize my company, we started 2 new business segments, launched a new brand, etc... oh yeah, and I have a family too with 2 chlidren. ;) So it was not easy.

Mike: the Enfield you saw in Pforzheim was the one I have now. I am preparing for the range tests now. I hope tomorrow I'll be able to give you the first impressions. I also have the Euroarms rifle on my hand. It would be nice to have an original as well for the video. I'll borrow my friend's sergeants rifle I think.

cheers,
Balázs

[Maillemaker]

You're a busy guy! Thanks for keeping us updated on the Pedersoli guns.

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Guys!

Video is ready for watching:

http://youtu.be/WVkEc6bd6lQ

There are many other minor differences, so if you ar interested in any parts I did not cover, just ask!

cheers,
SC

[Blair]

Balazs, (aka, "Space Cowboy")

Thank you, that was well done, and showed the really important differences.

[medic302]

wow that was really well done! the differances are really striking, i look forward to a side by side shooting comparison!

[Space Cowboy]

I am not going to shoot he Euroarms version, as it belongs to the store. I have to sell it as new.

But I will try to get an accurate load for the PEdersoli version. I have the bullets prepared (Lyman 575213 sized to .577). I also have Pedersoli nominally .577 630 grain Miniés, but actually they come out from the mold as .576, so have to size them to 575 to take away the ovality... this seems to me a bit small for the bore, but we'll see.

[Blair]

Providing the bores are actually .577... a bullet .001 to .002 undersized should do well.
I also believe a heavey bullet will preform better in the faster, 1-48 twist rifling.
Just my thoughts on these subjects,
Blair

[Space Cowboy]

Yes, I agree with you. I like the DP bullet's form: the bearing surface is long, and the grooves can hold a good amount of grease. But the size is a bit small. I slugged the bore and the caliper says it is aroung .578".

[Blair]

Balazs,

Then I would suggest trying a .577 or .576 in that heavy bullet for that fast twist.
A 45 to 55 gr. powder charge should do you just fine, depending on the type of powder you have available and/or prefer to use.

[Maillemaker]

Wow, fantastic video SC!

I hope you get to do a video on the 3-band version also, as well as a shooting video like you did with the 1861 Springfield!

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

I have Swiss 4Fg, 3Fg, 2Fg 1,5Fg and Wano 2Fg to test the rifle with. The Springfield loved the 3Fg with 35-40 grains of powder. I will start here with the exactly fitting bullets. For the Pedersoli I think I'll need a bit heavier load ti upset the bullet into the rifling. Will see.

[Space Cowboy]

Wow, fantastic video SC!

I hope you get to do a video on the 3-band version also, as well as a shooting video like you did with the 1861 Springfield!

Steve

I plan to do that also.

[Muley Gil]

I received my October 2012 issue of Guns & Ammo yesterday. Garry James has an article where he compares an original 1858 Enfield rifle to a new Pedersoli Silver Line 1858.

I doubt he spent that much time working up loads, as he got 4 1/2" groups from a rest @ 50 yards with both rifles. He was using 68 grains of FFg Goex. He was trying to duplicate British service loads.

Shoot, my old guinea gaspipe (Zoli Zouave) would print 1 1/4" groups at 50 yards and I know many of our N-SSA members can do much better.

Unfortunately, there was also a photo of James "thumbing" a Minie into the muzzle.