Pedersoli Civil War Muzzleloaders

[Space Cowboy]

I don't think it is a good idea to test the original load in this rifle, as the original rifling had a progressive depth, and the Pedersoli version has uniform groove depth.

And of course this group sizes are ablolutely not good. At 50 yards this gun must put all bullets on the same hole. And the origonal as well by the way.

[medic302]

I received my October 2012 issue of Guns & Ammo yesterday. Garry James has an article where he compares an original 1858 Enfield rifle to a new Pedersoli Silver Line 1858.

I doubt he spent that much time working up loads, as he got 4 1/2" groups from a rest @ 50 yards with both rifles. He was using 68 grains of FFg Goex. He was trying to duplicate British service loads.

Shoot, my old guinea gaspipe (Zoli Zouave) would print 1 1/4" groups at 50 yards and I know many of our N-SSA members can do much better.

Unfortunately, there was also a photo of James "thumbing" a Minie into the muzzle.

i think mr. james is an extremely knowledgeable person, but i think this shows the differance between gun collectors and marksmen.

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Shooters,

I shot the rifle today, tested several loads. Later today comes the video summary + some written info.

Cheers,
SC

[Mike McDaniel]

And of course this group sizes are ablolutely not good. At 50 yards this gun must put all bullets on the same hole. And the origonal as well by the way.
He's not joking, either. The winning scores in the 50m rifle-musket event at the World Championships last month were 96s. On the international target, where the 10-ring is the size of our X-ring, the 9-ring the size of our 10-ring. Shoot like that on an N-SSA target, and you've shot a 100-6X.

[Space Cowboy]

Dear Friends,

Here is the video about the first shooting day with the new Pedersoli Enfield 2bander.

Bullets used:
- Pedersoli .577 630 grain, sized to .575 (drop from the mold as 575-576, so this was the best sizing I could do)
- Lyman 575213 PH 580 grain sized to 577 (drp from the mold as .578)

The bore is .578 land to land. Powder used: only 3Fg Swiss for this day.

The rifle works perfectly, but need a trigger work, as the trigger weight is quite heavy. (safety reason, as the gun goes for the reenactors as well)

The DP bullet gave good groups, but not the ones I like. I beleiwe they are too small in dia for this bore. YOu can have a heavier charge to upset the bullet into the rifling, but in this case the recoil will be too heavy (for me for sure). I moved to the Lyman bullet, that gave excellent results with 40 gr Swiss 3 Fg at 50 m. (the pic attached showst this group. I used a 5 cm diameter plexi caliber to cover the holes. The size of the grpup from bullet center to bullet center is 3,8 cm.)

I already discussed with Pierangelo about the molds. The factory will enlarge the diameter of the 577 molds to match the bore, and there will be also a lighter bullet (hopefully around 500 grains) for off hand shooting.

There are plenty of other experiments to do with other bullets other powder brands, but I am sure that the 40 gr Swiss 3Fg + the Lyman PH bullet is the one I am going to use for both 50-100 m. In a few days I'll give that magic touch to the trigger pull, and I'll continue with the 100 m testing.

I fired 39 shots, without fouling problem. The gun was very accourate at the end of the day too. The cleaning was easy also, showing that the polishing of the grooves and lands is very good.

http://youtu.be/yf8sGsboTdI

cheers
SC

[Space Cowboy]

http://youtu.be/yf8sGsboTdI

[medic302]

great video! i can't wait untill we get to see the 3 band tests!!

about the trigger pull, how are you going to lighten it? how heavy is it from the factory?

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Medic302,

There are several ways to lighten the trigger pull. The one I like is drilling a hole under the sear into the tumbler, and gluing an iron rod in it, and filing it down to the required size. This will lift the sear out to the top of the full cock notch. YOu will need a good drill for this job, as the thumbler is hardened. And sometimes you have to modify the half cock as well, so the sear is not hitting it. This takes maximum 20 minutes for a gunsmith.

I just ordered a Lyman trigger pull gauge, so I'll check the factory trigger pull with that if I received it.

Cheers,
SC

[medic302]

thanks ! do you know when you will have the 3 band to test?

[Space Cowboy]

Your welcome. I suppose in 1-2 month times I'll have our first 3 band as well.

[Space Cowboy]

by the way, if you are on facebook, please check out our facebook page as well. We are posting many articles, videos, info about historical hunting& shooting.

https://www.facebook.com/KapszliCapandball

Thanks,
SC

[Maillemaker]

Great video SC!

A couple of points:

I find the music cut in/cut out as you speak annoying. It would be more pleasing, I think, if the music was just softer in the background continuously.

I was glad to see a passing shot of the modern markings on the barrel. It would be good to show these more clearly. I was confused how in the video you said they were "hidden" however. They are not very hidden to me! :) Of course, we knew that they would be there as they are required to be by law.

The hammer seems not to cock as far back as I would have expected for half and full cock?

Can you share your recipie for your bullet lube made from beeswax and synthetic motor oil?

Steve

[medic302]

SC, just a thought but i think it would also be helpful to shoot the rifles at 200yrds as well. In NMLRA musket matches are shot prone at 200.

[Space Cowboy]

Maillemaker,

Thank you very much for you comments! I agree with most of them. The markings are "hidden" on the left side, so you don't see any script on the "Nice side" of the gun. I agree that it is not real hiding, but petter than having them in front of you eyes.

The lube is made from about 20% beeswax + 80 % 5W40 or 0W40 engine oil. I melt the besswax and start to add the oil. I let it cool, check the hardnes, melt again if needed, add some olil if needed, and so on, until I reach the desired hardness. The lube works very good for me, as it allways keeps the fouling very soft even in dry and hot weather. I know it is not the mpst authentic mix, but it won a few MLAIC matches for me with scores above 95.

Medic,

I'd love to shoot the gun to 200 yards, but the longest range we have in my city (Budapest) is 100 m-s. So maybe in the future.

Cheers,
SC

[Space Cowboy]

The hammer seems not to cock as far back as I would have expected for half and full cock?



The cocking position is close to the half cock for sure, and the hammer can be overcocked with about 1-1,5 cm. The short way for the hammer means short lock time, so this is a help for the target shooters in my opininon. You have less time to flinch.

[Maillemaker]

Oh I see what you mean by hidden now.

Thanks for the lube recipie!

Steve

[Mike McDaniel]

I have this thought in my head...how many people would be willing to travel to Budapest for a Skirmish? :D

[Space Cowboy]

Well if you come, you will all be my guests! I promiss you the best wines, and best Hungarian food available in my country! And we can also shoot! ;)

[Maillemaker]

The airfare from here is equivalent to one Pedersoli P1853. :)

Steve

[Mike McDaniel]

Yup. And I wouldn't even think of it this year. But it might be worth thinking about in the long term - sort of like the NFL exhibition games they play in Europe.

[Space Cowboy]

The airfare from here is equivalent to one Pedersoli P1853. :)

Steve

But that's the only cost for sure.

[Paul Lampman 263V]

Throw in dancing girls and we may have a deal.;)

[Space Cowboy]

Cannot. My wife reads the forums ocasionally. :)

[Jim Mayo]

Since I don't have one of the new P-58 Pedersoli's I have taken a couple of pictures of a Euro Arms P-58 compared to two Confederate inspected two band rifles. One is a P-56 and the other is a P-58. Sometimes it is nice to see how the Euro compares to originals. Hope this image posting thing works. I didn't want to resize these photos to 19K.

From what I have seen on this thread the new Pedersolis look great. I would urge restrictive use of the B-SAT rondell since IMO far more Enfields are seen without the marking than with.

They can be seen in an album here: http://imgur.com/a/pP5X7

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Jim:

Great looking replica/defarbed Enfield!

Who is selling the replica Potts lockplates?

THANKS
Southron

[Jim Mayo]

Dear Jim:

Great looking replica/defarbed Enfield!

Who is selling the replica Potts lockplates?

THANKS
Southron

I bought that gun off of another forum about 5 years ago. Don't know who made the lockplate.

[John Holland]

The repro Potts & Hunt lock plate looks like one from James River Armory. The stamping die was cut from an original Potts & Hunt plate. Too bad their Civil War arms business folded as they were the absolute best for the price.

JDH

[Blair]

I believe JRA was importing lock plates from Euroarms Italy un marked. This allowed him to put a variety of markings on the blank lock plates.
Good idea. It takes a sizeable investment in the stamps which have to be in the correct size and letter font style for just about every variation.
Blair

[medic302]

why did JRA stop making civil war guns?

[Mike McDaniel]

As I understand it, they stopped when Euroarms went out of business. I also suspect they are making a larger profit margin on the cartridge guns they sell now.

[Blair]

Mike,

I believe you are correct.

I talked with JRA reps at the 2009 Shot Show.
They said they were still making ACW guns, but had none to show at this mega Show. ?
I think the hand writing was on the wall even then (3- + years ago) about EOA closing down.

Just for clarification, one might cross check with JRA as to why they went with EOA to get these goodies.
I personally tend to believe it was because EOA parts and pieces were better made than anybody else's at the time, and those parts and pieces would interchange (with only a little amount of fitting) better than anybodies else's.
As a side note... I also believe Pedersoli will provide this interchangeability service better than anyone else.
Blair

[Maillemaker]

I think it would be a cool secondary product line for Pedersoli (or Armisport for that matter) to offer custom lock plates with different period markings.

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

Yes, I too believe it would be.
I also believe this idea may also be possable in the future. Perhaps sometime after Pedersoli gets the new "Silver Line" up and running at full capacity?

We will just have to wait and see?

[Jim Mayo]

I think it would be a cool secondary product line for Pedersoli (or Armisport for that matter) to offer custom lock plates with different period markings.


The problem with changing lock plates is that to have an authentically marked Enfield you may have to change other markings to agree with the name on the lock plate. This is a trap that can be easily sprung. For instance a Potts & Hunt gun would normally have different proof and inspection marks on the barrel than a gun marked Tower. Other stock markings (such as may appear on a Tower) may not be consistant with the P&H gun. A Tower marked gun dated 1863 may have different inspection marks than one dated 1861. This is especially true for some Confederate purchased guns. As Geoff Walden says in his article, it is best to use an original example as a guide when defarbing (or changing lock plates) for Enfields. The Potts & Hunt in the pictures I posted had a variety of stock markings when I got it which I had to remove and still got one wrong. Good thing about it is nobody knows that until now. That being said there are plenty of original Enfields with Tower marked lock plates and very few stock markings that would be easy to duplicate. Also now and then a Enfield comes out of the woodwork that negates everything I just said above. That is what makes these guns so interesting.

[Maillemaker]

I've emailed Pedersoli with the suggestion.


The problem with changing lock plates is that to have an authentically marked Enfield you may have to change other markings to agree with the name on the lock plate.

That's true, but having a correct lockplate sure puts you ahead of the game of having no lockplate.

Steve

[Southron Sr.]

The Blockade Runner sutler has a variety of "Authentic" Enfield lockplates available and for a price, they will "defarb" the rest of your replica Enfield and apply the right stamps.

http://www.blockaderunner.com/Catalog/catpg2a.html

[Maillemaker]

Yup, and Todd Watts is a master at it, too, by all accounts.

But according to Craig Barry, the old Euroarms lock plates will not retrofit with the new Pedersoli Enfield, so the Blockade Runner lock plates may not be drop-in replacements for the new Pedersoli Enfields.

Steve

[medic302]

score! i just bought one of the pedersoli P53's at friendship! i was just shooting some mini's i bought at friendship at a 100yrd target, it kept them on the paper right out of the box. that's a pretty good start as far as i'm concerned.

[Blair]

medic302,

Nice report, thanks.

One other question... how would you compare the quality of the changes/modification to the old Euroarms?
Again thanks.

[GPM]

Can you post some pics of it ?

[Maillemaker]

Yes, pictures, lots and lots of pictures, please!

Steve

[medic302]

while i was in friendship i did have an opportunity to compare the pedersoli p53 to an although beat up, original 2nd model p53 and a euroarms p53. even though the original was pretty beat up the pedersoli shouldered exactly the same as the original, sight alignment was the same, and the weight felt to be the same to me as well. in short, had the pedesoli had spring bands and been covered in 100+ years of crud it would've looked exactly the same. in fact, i handled both with my eyes closed and could not tell the differance. dixie had the price as 925$.

[medic302]

okay, how do i post pictures on the forum?

[medic302]

the euroarms frankly felt bulky and much heavier and by comparison had a kind of cartoonish aspect to it.

[Maillemaker]

The easiest way to post pictures on the web is to use Imgur:

http://www.imgur.com

You can upload a single or multiple pictures. Then just copy and paste the URL from your Imgur album to your post here.

Steve

[medic302]

okay, i'll get on it.

[Maillemaker]

dixie had the price as 925$.

Not as bad as I feared!

Steve

[Maillemaker]

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=16521

Decent picture there, too.

Steve

[Blair]

The priceing is much better than the "suggested" retail price published from Importer back in Jan./Feb of this year.

The photo images, can be somewhat lacking in the details. I would highly recommend getting your hands on one first.
This is truely the best way to find out, for sure, before you make the actual investment.
I really want ro see what DP has done with the 1861 Springfield's (I like them better than the Enfield's anyway)
I hope this info helps,
Blair

[medic302]

enfield pics.

http://i.imgur.com/XcZE5.jpg

[medic302]

more pics.

http://i.imgur.com/URqoI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dlKXG.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/j2Lf9.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/OTmP6.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/jgngn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6Y3oL.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bxl7l.jpg

[Jim Mayo]

Be nice if they offered the P-53 without the BSAT marking. Maybe mark every other one. IMO there are more original examples without than with. The pictures do look good.

[Maillemaker]

Thanks for the awesome pictures! I think these are the best photos I've seen yet.


Be nice if they offered the P-53 without the BSAT marking. Maybe mark every other one. IMO there are more original examples without than with. The pictures do look good.

If Pedersoli plays their cards right, they can corner a nice accessory market for their Enfield. Blank stocks, blank lockplates, blank hammers.

Steve

[Blair]

I plan on coming to this Fall Nations. Perhaps to do some shopping as a side note.
But, at this point, what is more imortant to me is actually getting a chance to do a hands on inspection of the new "Silver Line" of Pedersoli made ACW firearms.
I was able to inspect them back in late March. However, sence they have been N-SSA approved, I have not been able to get back into the wearhouse to view any of the improvements that had been made after that time.
Photos are great!
Photos, however, so not tend to do justice to the "real feel" details one truely needs to get such delails.
I hope many of you will be able to take advantage of this as well. And of course, voice your opinions as well.

[Maillemaker]

I look forward to hearing what you think about them. I'm in the middle of cleaning up some medieval armour for sale to fund buying one.

Steve

[ExMachina]

Neewbie here. :)

I know that the Enfields get all the love, but can anyone please comment as to the quality of the Pendersoli 1861 Springfield reproduction?

I'm looking to buy my first Civil War era repro and I'm biased toward the Springfields. Curious how "authentic" the 1861 Pendersoli repro is (e.g, how does it compare to the Miroku)?

Many thanks

[John Holland]

It is heavier built replica than the Mirouku by probably some 1 1/2 pounds or so.

JDH

[Blair]

ExMachina,

It has been so long since I have had a '61 Miroku in my hands, that in all honesty, I can't make a comparison for you. Then you have the "kit" versions, which could be finished out from very well to very poorly.

Pedersoli was buying all the component parts from Euroarms to build up their version of the M-1861 Springfield. These had been SAC approved. (all of this before Euroarms went belly-up) There were, however, some issues with the Pedersoli '61's.
During this time of re-tooling the old Euroarms equipment, Pedersoli was very receptive to suggestions for improving the Historical Authenticity of their new product line. Suggestions were made on making a few improvements to their '61's.
I am told that these have been addressed, but have not had a chance to see what was done. So, I will be looking for the '61 as well as the Richmond at Nationals.
I do not know if the M-1861 was resubmitted along with the other arms for SAC approval.

[ExMachina]

Thanks. Yes, I had heard that the "new" Pendersoli Springfields were supposed to be improvements over the Euroarms guns. But are they really still a pound too heavy?

EDIT: is there a link that details the improvements Pendersoli made to the 1861 Springfield? I haven't been able to find one.

[Blair]

ExMachina,


Another good question.
The old Euroarms and Pedersoli made '61's were, indeed, heavier.
This was partly do to a very dense North African type of hard wood they were using at the time. The stock patterns were getting somewhat 'pudgy' (oversized) as well, which also added to the weight.
The new variation are suppose to be using American Black Walnut. This is less dense and therefore lighter wood.
John Holland maybe in a better position to answer this question directly.
As I said earlier, I have not yet seen or held one of these "new" Pedersoli arms.
The weight and type of hardwood, 'pudginess' of the stocks are not the things that tends to show up well in photographs. I know of no computer link that will give you the specific information that might help address your question.
Getting a personal hands-on inspection of these, in my opinion, is an absolute must.

[Smosin]

Hello,
I've been reading this thread with interest for several months, and appreciate all the good info provided by contributors. After reading everything, I was excited to purchase one of the new 1853 Pedersolis, from Cabela's, and received it yesterday. I've not had a chance to shoot it yet, but the quality seems excellent overall. It is exactly like the previously posted photos from Medic, with the very nice attention to details as provided in the video provided earlier by Space Cowboy, re: the 1858.
Fwiw, Cabela's is currently selling the 1853 for $849, which is considerably less that Dixie, and several hundred less than I was quoted by two other distributors, neither of whom had it in stock yet, one wanting $1050 with a 3 month wait and a required $200 deposit, the other offering it at $1240 with an expected delivery in October.
Oddly enough, Cabela's does not have a proper photo of the new rifle on their website, instead showing what must be the previous Pedersoli model with case hardened barrel bands.
Thanks again, folks.

[medic302]

i think you'll be happy with it, i'm really happy with mine. i now have to decide what bullet to use. my bore measures .579. i've been considering trying the wilkinson bullet it seems like folks have had excellent results with it. also, i'm considering having a pritchett mold made in .570, and trying the lyman NSSA target mini. any advice would be apprieciated.

[Smosin]

I've had good accuracy with that Lyman N-SSA {edit: Blue-Grey target} minie, in both a Bill Large barrelled Richmond and a PH Enfield, so also intend to try it in the new DP Enfield. It sure cuts a nice clean hole in targets!

[medic302]

thanks! that works out good a friend of mine who lives close has that mold.

[Maillemaker]

Fwiw, Cabela's is currently selling this for $849, which is considerably less that Dixe, and several hundred less than I was quoted by two other distributors, neither of whom had it in stock yet, one wanting $1050 with a 3 month wait and a required $200 deposit, the other offering it at $1240 with an expected delivery in October.

Thanks for the great information!

What is the Lyman N-SSA minnie you speak of?

Steve

[Smosin]

What I'm using is the 405 grain Lyman #578675. It casts at .578 right out of the mould and resembles a semi-wadcutter with big scraping ring and hollow base. Sized to .576", with @ 40 grains of Goex 3Fg I am getting accurate tight groups at 100 yards. I think it is actually called the Blue-Grey target minie. It will be interesting to see if it will shoot well in the new arm.

[Maillemaker]

Thanks, that would be this one:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/637400/lyman-1-cavity-minie-ball-bullet-mold-578675-58-caliber-578-diameter-405-grain-blue-gray-target

I did not know that Lyman made an RCBS-Hodgdon style bullet. It is cheaper than the RCBS mold, for sure.

Steve

[Southron Sr.]

The Hodgdon mould has a "Floating Base Pin" which makes it three times faster to cast bullets.

When I needed a "back up" mould, I purchased a Lyman "Blue-Gray Mould" and then converted it to a "Floating Base Pin" mould using an old piece of hack saw blade (with the teeth ground off) and a Dremel Tool. I did have to cut off the wooden Lyman handle on the base plug and then center drill and tap the back of the base plug

[Maillemaker]

I wondered how that wooden knob-thingy worked!

Steve

[medic302]

for those who may be interested, yesterday i took my pedersoli P53 to the range for a little serious bench shooting. i shot 12 rounds at 50 yrds off the bench. i don't have a mini mold yet so i shot a dozen mini balls that were given to me by a fellow lrml shooter who is german. the balls resemble the lyman PH mini mold except they are .579 dia, and were already lubricated with a beeswax and tallow mix. just to start i was using 50gr of swiss 3F and rws musket caps with the factory steel nipple. i have not bedded the barrel yet.

that being said, the target is a NRA 25yrd slow fire pistol target. with the sight at the lowest setting and assuming the shots would go high, i held center on the very bottom edge of the target. all twelve shots are accounted for, and the group measures 1.8" with two fliers on the very bottom which were the first two shots and had bent skirts. no wiping between shots. i'm not an expert with the rifle musket, what do you more learned folks think?

http://i.imgur.com/hzsP8.jpg

[Smosin]

That's good shooting!
It only reinforces what I experienced Saturday, when I was able to shoot my new P53, for the first time ever, from a rest at 100 yards. The very first round was in the 9 ring,and most other shots were in the black, of a 100 yard NMLRA target, very encouraging indeed.
In all, I fired about 25 times, with a few different loads, and sights were generally dead on.
With a Lyman 575213NS at 511 grains and 60 grains of Goex fffg, I was able to hit the black with most shots, except for a couple of operator-induced flyers.
The most amazing load was with the Blue-Gray minie and 45 grains of 3fg, a nice 5 shot group, I'd estimate about 2" also in the black.
Surprisingly, all this was shot with the sight in the 100 yard setting, just holding the front sight up or down in the rear sight notch.

Oddly enough, while shooting I noticed that a very very thin line of oil or grease was weeping out of the patent breech barrel thread junction, at the front of the breechblock. I suppose the heating during firing was causing expansion/contraction of the metals, forcing grease out of the threads. Unusual?

[medic302]

i noticed that same weeping for the first few shots with mine too. it stopped though, i guess it was just getting worked in. thank you, what are the best groups i should expect?

[medic302]

so the lyman blue/gray mold shot a 2" group at 100yrds for you? that's pretty good.

[Smosin]

i noticed that same weeping for the first few shots with mine too. it stopped though, i guess it was just getting worked in. thank you, what are the best groups i should expect?

I have no idea what to expect myself, but this is all lots of fun so far. The trick is to hit consistently enough to point of aim when standing and shooting, so I guess I'd better try that next.

The B/G bullet shoots very well with reduced powder charges. I was pleasantly surprised.

[medic302]

great! i'll try that bullet next, i have a friend of mine who has that mold. he offered to make up some bullets, i think i'll take him up on it. i'm kinda surprised nobody else has commented, of course i think their nationals are this week.

[Maillemaker]

That looks better than I have been able to achieve with my Euroarms Enfield with a Whitacre barrel!

But I have not yet tried with the RCBS-Hodgdon bullet, either. I'm getting that mold for Christmas. :)

Steve

[medic302]

wow! thank you it sounds like i'm on the right track!

[Muley Gil]

Not bad at all.

[Southron Sr.]

Having oil to "weep" out of the threaded joint between the breech/bolster casting and the barrel is fairly common the first few times a brand new barrel is shot.

I would like to point out that Pedersoli has a reputation for making extremely accurate barrels-their replica Gibbs Rifles often win the 1,000 yard Matches at Oak Ridge, Tennessee. I am not in the least suprised that your new Pedersoli Enfield shoots as good as it does.

The most accurate of all of the Pedersoli Enfields iwill be the replica Naval Rifle because it has a "Heavy" barrel and the fabulous 1 in 48 Twist with the 5 Groove Rifling.

[sashav133]

I just found this thread, and it was so informative I read it in one evening.

I see Pedersoli has introduced a lot of great guns to their silver line, including some that I thought were rather inconsequential--Haper's Ferry Colt conversion, for example. Or Cook & Brother carbine.
But there is one glaring omission from that line, especially in view of after-thought guns I just mentioned, and that is pattern 1860 Enfield short rifle, the one of Berry Benson fame.

So here's a question for Space Cowboy, Blair--how difficult would it be to convince the Italians to make one? As I understand it, it is a matter of rather minor modification to the stock of the Naval rifle, and some different furniture, which can be taken from other rifles in production.

[Southron Sr.]

It might be a tad more expensive but you could make your own P-60 by ordering the following parts from Peter Dyson and replacing the brass parts on a Pedersoli Naval Rifle.

Order thest STEEL Parts from Mr. Dyson:

http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/ENFIELD_RIFLE_parts.html

1. Steel Nosecap

2. Two Steel Escutcheons for the lock plate bolts. Note: You would have to get a welder to build up the "Rounded Wing Tips" into "Square Wing Tips" on the excutcheons. Of course, after the tips were built up, then they would filed square, copying the brass escutcheons that come on the rifle.

3. A Steel Trigger Guard with the long tang.

4. A Sling Swivel that would go into the rear of the trigger guard tang.

5. A Steel buttplate

Install all of these parts and "Presto" you would have your own P-60 Army Short Rifle!!!

All of these parts would need to be polished and color casehardened before being installed on the rifle.

[Blair]

sashav133,

That is a good question.
It is a subject I have discussed with Pedersoli. They seem to like the idea, but it will require some new tooling to get it set up.
I can't begin to suggest when this might happen. It most likely wont be until after they come out with the new Cook & Brother Rifle later this year.
I hope this helps answer your question,
Blair

[GPM]

Blair have you heard if they plan to fix the problems with the Cook & Brother replicas? I noticed Cabela's is offering the Pedersoli Mississippi and C&B carbine but the pics shown seem to be the same stock pics from Euroarms.

[sashav133]

Blair--thank you.
How much tooling do you need for a steel nose cap and an extra hole on the stock? Looking at their website, they already produce everything else that's correct for P60.

Southron Sr.
Having read about the work and the quality that Pedersoli invested into this project, I'd rather let them do it, and reward them for it with my money.


P.S. What is the correct bayonet for P60? Is it the same as for the Naval rifle, or did the army came up with something different?

[Blair]

GPM,

Yes.
One of the issues is in the use of the short or standard Enfield type trigger guard in the original C&B Carbines by EoA.

Pedersoli has told me they have corrected this, along with a few other issues. The Cook Carbine were suppose to be ready by the end of Jan.
Cabela maybe a source for these at this time. I, in all honestly, don't know for sure. Calling them (Cabela), and asking specific details maybe the best I can suggest.
I do not know if any of these new C&B Carbines have been shipped to the US as of this time. I also doubt that the N-SSA SAC has had any of these submitted for approval at this time.
I hope this helps,
Blair

[Blair]

sashav 133,

The tooling difference will depend on casting the different parts... in iron/steel and/or brass. The shrink rate is different between the two metals. Causing size differences in the finished parts.
Stocks are inlet differently depending on the Model/Pattern furniture planned on being used.
My best,
Blair

[sashav133]

Another great book find:

The rifle and how to use it. (http://books.google.com/books?id=sk3ye-2tRD8C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false)

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Shooters,

I made some pics of the new 3 band Pedersoli enfield. I have it on hand, with the new Pedersoli mold and sizer especaially made for this rifles. I'll start testing next week.

17021703170417051706

Cheers,
SC

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Has Pedersoli perhaps considered offerings these other items as "accessories" like Taylor & Co is currently offering a Harpers Ferry-stamped replacement lock for the Chiappa M-1842 for $166 (versus the standard lock at $135), Pedersoli could offer its customers something similar: maybe steel furniture in lieu of brass for those who want to convert their P/58 into a P/56 or 60/61, etc. Pedersoli could simply add a markup (say 150%) to cover the additional cost of manufacture and distribution. Given the length of this thread, I would think that most everyone reading this thread would probably be more than willing to pay 150% markup just to have a source to buy fully-interchangeable finished parts. Dyson & Sons parts still require fitting and finishing, and involve labour that some folks here just aren't willing to do.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

It might be a tad more expensive but you could make your own P-60 by ordering the following parts from Peter Dyson and replacing the brass parts on a Pedersoli Naval Rifle.

Order thest STEEL Parts from Mr. Dyson:

http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/ENFIELD_RIFLE_parts.html

1. Steel Nosecap

2. Two Steel Escutcheons for the lock plate bolts. Note: You would have to get a welder to build up the "Rounded Wing Tips" into "Square Wing Tips" on the excutcheons. Of course, after the tips were built up, then they would filed square, copying the brass escutcheons that come on the rifle.

3. A Steel Trigger Guard with the long tang.

4. A Sling Swivel that would go into the rear of the trigger guard tang.

5. A Steel buttplate

Install all of these parts and "Presto" you would have your own P-60 Army Short Rifle!!!

All of these parts would need to be polished and color casehardened before being installed on the rifle.

Bro'yer Sanders,

You looking to build a Pattern 1860 or pre-war P/56 Army rifle? If you want the P/56 then you'll need a new lighter weight, thinner-walled barrel since the same heavy barrel spec was used for the P60/61 Army rifle as was adopted for the P/58 Navy rifle. Of course, you might also like to have the 3-groove rather than the 5-groove rifling so it will look more like Berry Benson's rifle. Alternatively, you could just buy an original P/60 rifle and not have to change out any parts, but I guess some people would rather spend more money to build one themselves than buy one already made and 150 years old!

[Maillemaker]

Has Pedersoli perhaps considered offerings these other items as "accessories" like Taylor & Co is currently offering a Harpers Ferry-stamped replacement lock for the Chiappa M-1842 for $166 (versus the standard lock at $135), Pedersoli could offer its customers something similar: maybe steel furniture in lieu of brass for those who want to convert their P/58 into a P/56 or 60/61, etc. Pedersoli could simply add a markup (say 150%) to cover the additional cost of manufacture and distribution. Given the length of this thread, I would think that most everyone reading this thread would probably be more than willing to pay 150% markup just to have a source to buy fully-interchangeable finished parts. Dyson & Sons parts still require fitting and finishing, and involve labour that some folks here just aren't willing to do.

I posted your suggestion on their facebook page.

Steve

[Blair]

Richard,

Your complete suggestions, as well as those posted by Southeron Sr. and Maillemaker (among others) have have been proposed to Pedersoli.
I discussed all of this with Pierangelo Pedersoli face to face last November. What brought this into focus was Pedersoli's re-introduction of the new Cook & Brother Carbine and later the C & B Rifle.
Last I heard the C & B Carbine is ready... the Rifle later this year.
Perhaps... An iron/steel mounted variation of either the P-1856 or P-1860 Short Infantry Rifle will be in the works by next year. Which one? I don't know. It will brobably be based off of the Short Naval Rifle. ???? (that would probably be the P-1860 Rifle)
Blair

[Blair]

For some reason I don't understand... I am un able to edit this posting.
But I wanted to let everyone know I have requested up dated information from Pedersoli in regards to this subject.
I may not have anything 'new' to post until this Monday at the earliest, but promise to up date this information as I can. My best,
Blair

[GPM]

Blair have you seen in person or pics the the new C&B carbine ? I hope they at least made an attempt to do better with the lock plate markings. And of course the triggerguard.
I will probably buy either the 2 band Enfield or, depending on how it looks, the C&B .

Unrelated to topic, I can edit from my home computer but not from an I phone. (?)

[Blair]

GPM,

I am very sorry to say that I have not, Carbine nor Rifle!
What I can tell you is that the long trigger guard tang is what DP went after first on the C & B firearms.( among other things) These will also most likely be marked with the 1864 Athens, Ga. lock stampings.

Casting the long trigger in brass or iron is not quit as simple as I had originally imagined.
I am not at all familiar with the Italian methods for doing this, however, it seems to be more complex that I had thought.
I wish I knew more. Hopefully I will have more info to pass on to everyone in a couple of days.
My best,
Blair

[Blair]

I ask Pedersoli several questions;

1. Had they completed both the Cook & Brother Carbine and Rifle?
This was the reply;
quote,
"Cook & Brother : so far we did just the carbine .
For the rifle , we do not have enough information to start and we do not know about the
market.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. What was the status with the Remington and Rogers & Spenser Revolvers? (Target Shooters are asking about these)
This was the reply;
quote,
"Remington revolver : we have this gun and we never presented to NSSA , just because we are to
expensive for the re-inactors :
we are paying
a lot of attention to the shooting performace . Our costumers are the MLAIC shooters.
Our revolver is European champion and it has been world champion as well
and the real competitor of our revolver is
the German company Feinwerkbau , more expensive than Pedersoli"

"Roger & Spencer we are not making this gun any more , at list for the moment ."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those of you that have a facebook account, Pedersoli has a facebook page. (I do not have an account)
Perhaps, Steve Sheldon will post that information?
Blair

[GPM]

Blair, I found what Looks like a pic of the new C&B carbine on Cabelas web site, looks like the trigger guard has been fixed. The pic could not be enlarged enough to make out the lock markings. It looks like they did remove the engraving from the hammer. When I get home I'll post a link

[Maillemaker]

Here is their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Davide-Pedersoli-C/198648030179957?fref=ts

Steve

[Blair]

GPM,

Thanks. That would be of great help in my opinion.
I think you will like what you see if you can get the images enlarged.

One of the problems I have found with catalog images is that they don't normally offer good enough photos.
On the other hand, web site imagery could, if additional images were made available by clicking on that product. (all to often, they don't bother with added images)
Would you like me to bring that up with Pedersoli? (of course it won't mean the dealers will use it). Pedersoli's facebook page does offer some additional images for some arms.
My best,
Blair

[Lou Lou Lou]

They didn't present the Remington to theN-SSA because we are re-enactors and it is too expensive for us?Is that correct? Awful lot of lead expended in those re-enactments. Ok, you can stone me now.

[GPM]

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=1223640

You can enlarge with the zoom button.

[Blair]

Lou Lou Lou,

I know how this may sound.
But please believe me... this is not how it was meant from Pedersoli, nor intended.
Pedersoli knows the N-SSA is not a Reenacting group.
I should have made a statement along these lines from the beginning. (my fault)
What Pedersoli would like to do is capture the reenacting community along with the 'Target Shooters" of the N-SSA.
It ain't going to happen! Pedersoli is finding this out.

The facebook page Steve Sheldon posted may help some persons voice their opinions on some arms.
Pedersoli is reading and listening. Give it a try. If you have an account with facebook????

[Lou Lou Lou]

No problem! Sometimes, I have to bite my tongue. Just how privet are their revolvers, compared to Hege?

[Blair]

Lou,

In all honesty I can not tell from personnel experience.
Best I can offer you is in the earlier "quote" I posted from Pedersoli regarding the Remington.
I honestly believe if you have facebook, you would be better off asking your questions on the web site Steve Sheldon offered.
Pedersoli is listening and will reply on that forum.
Blair

[Mike McDaniel]

I handled a Pedersoli Remington. Impressive gun. I thought it needed to have the trigger tuned up to improve crispness, but it was closer to Hege quality than anything else I've seen short of some of the custom guns.

[Maillemaker]

SpaceCowboy has done a video on the Pedersoli New Army Remington:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M3cHmmjct8U

This gun won the MLAIC championship in 2011.

The video shows better accuracy that I'm getting with my stock Pietta off a benchrest.

Steve

[Blair]

SpaceCowboy,
aka, Balazs Nemeth has produced some fine videos on shooting BP arms.
Even if you don't have a facebook account, (I don't) you should still be able to view these videos through the link posted by Steve. They have been posted on this thread before, but this thread has gotten soooo long that it can be difficult to find access to them.
Just fallow "The Capandball Channel" logo.
My best,
Blair

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Guys!

A new video about the Pedersoli 3 band Enfield:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3el1FGIu6s4&feature=youtu.be

cheers,
SC

[Rebel Dave]

SC

Great Video, and Good shooting, The Pedersoli looks like a fine gun. I think it will catch on if the shoot like that.


Rebel Dave

[Space Cowboy]

SC

Great Video, and Good shooting, The Pedersoli looks like a fine gun. I think it will catch on if the shoot like that.

Rebel Dave

Thanks Dave! I think it is a good choice!

[Space Cowboy]

I think I did not post this video here. I visited the factory a few monthes ago to film how they make the stocks for the guns:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrq0rwp0vbQ&list=PLIGg3pcPWcaIk7WlbEcVzdcG dh3ceQ5iO

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Thanks For posting this video, Space Cowboy. Very interesting.

[Maillemaker]

Nice video, thanks!

Steve

[medic302]

both videos are very nice. if i may add to the discussion, using the .577 moose wilkinson bullet and 65grns of 3F swiss, i put 5/7 shots into the 9 ring on a NRA 200yrd target. shooting prone of course at 200yrds. the other two shots were 8's at 9 and 3 o'clock.

[Space Cowboy]

both videos are very nice. if i may add to the discussion, using the .577 moose wilkinson bullet and 65grns of 3F swiss, i put 5/7 shots into the 9 ring on a NRA 200yrd target. shooting prone of course at 200yrds. the other two shots were 8's at 9 and 3 o'clock.

Medic, that's a beautiful gropu at 200 yards! Can you post a pic of the bullet?

[medic302]

thank you sir! i will do so asap.

[Capnball]

Pedersoli will comply with the import requirements needed to ship their weapons into this country. These modern markings are required to be visible.

Defarbers and those that own the de-farbed weapons are taking chances as it is my belief after reading the laws in this area that this is illegal. Yes, since it is such a minor thing, it is unlikely you will be prosecuted, but still you are violating the law. As an attorney, I advise against this.

I would like to see Pedersoli stamp their weapons internally with their marks to prevent fraudulent dealers from passing their weapons off as "original CS firearms" The defarbed weapons are bad enough without Mass produced weapons of proper types, etc. being thrown into the market. Just wondering if the laws this fellow is citing are referring to these particular imported products, or, I guess, what the laws' definitions of these products are, because under Federal Law, i.e. the National Firearms Act (NFA), all muzzleloaders are considered "antiques", an almost "non-gun" status. They are not even a regulated firearm under Federal Law. If your local or state laws are contrary (most are not, some are, like New Jersey, I believe), MOVE. :) Just kidding. Anyhow, does anyone have more reliable info on the subject?

[Maillemaker]

I don't know about the particulars of the laws, but I know lots of people around here replace the entire barrel.

My Euroarms Enfield has a Whitacre barrel with nothing but the Whitacre trademark and serial number on the bottom of the barrel.

Now if I can replace the entire barrel I don't see why I can't modify the factory one.

Steve

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Shooters,

I just received the info that the Pedersoli Cook & Brother received the NSSA approval!
18691870187118721873

cheers,
SC

[threepdr]

Space Cowboy,

I've serched through this link hoping to find information about Pedersoli's new Mississippi Rifle. Have you handled one? I'm curious if they have made the same time of improvments on it as they have on the M61 and the P53? Correct markings, Walnut and slimmer barrel. Have they patterned it off and original or the old Euroarms product? If they have devoted as much attention to it as they have the new P53, I'll have to have one!

Thanks
Mark Hubbs

[Southron Sr.]

Back in the Mid-1970's when I worked for Euroarms of America one of my job responsibilities was to clear our shipments of amrs through U.S. Customs.

The containers of Euroarms arms would be trucked from the factories outside of Brescia, Italy to the port of Genoa, Italy [Chris Columbus' old Home Town!] and loaded aboard a container vessel. From Genoa the ship usually sailed across the Atlantic to the Port of New York and containers addressed to that port were unloaded. From New York the ship sailed down to Philadelphia where more containers were unloaded and then down to Baltimore.

At Baltimore, the Euroarms containers were usually unloaded there and placed in the Custom's impound yard and remained there until I showed up with our Customs paperwork to "clear" the shipment.

The "paperwork" consisted of a complete inventory of everything in the container. Each and every black powder firearm was listed by make, model, caliber and serial number. Our percussion revolvers were packed in their individual boxes and those individual boxes were packed in cases of 20 each. Zouaves and 3 band Enfields, for example, were packed in cases of 5 each, etc.

We used the services of a professional "Customs Broker" firm located in Baltimore to literally run the paperwork through the Customs bureaucracy at Baltimore (the paperwork that the Customs Broker used was a set of paperwork, mailed directly to them from Italy,) while I received a duplicate set of paperwork in the mail from Italy at our offices in Winchester.

Part of my job was to run over to the ATF building in downtown Washington, D.C. and get AFT "Approval" to import that shipment. The person in charge of that office was a very nice and efficient lady who would actually take about 15 minutes, carefully reading through the inventory of items on the inventory list from the factory before literally stamping the paperwork "approved from importation."

Then I went back to the offices in Winchester and waited until the paperwork from the Customs Broker in Baltimore arrived in the mail. Then a day or so later, I would get ALL the paperwork and drive over to the Custom's impound yard in Baltimore.

A Customs agent would go out into the impound yard with me and we would literally walk around this huge yard full of containers until we found the container(s) from Euroarms. When the Euroarms container was found, the Customs agent would pull out a pair of wire cutters and cut the "seal" on the door latch of the container and we would swing the doors open.

WHAT ALWAYS AMAZED ME was the professional way the Italians at the factory could pack the containers. The cartons holding the boxes of firearms came in a wide variety of sizes but those boxes were packed so efficiently was that there was hardly a spare square inch of wasted space (i.e., "empty" space") inside of that container!!!.

The the Customs agent would pick out a couple of cartons at random and I would pull them out of the container. Using my pocket knife, I would open the cartons and we would compare the list of serial numbers on the paperwork from the factory with the arms in the boxes. Everything always matched (make, model and serial number) of the arms. The Customs agent would tell me that he was releasing the container.

The arms we had pulled out of the container for inspection would be repacked in the container, the container doors closed and locked with a heavy padlock. The Customs agent would place a sign on the container indicating that it had passed Customs Inspection.

I would head back to the offices after that. After I left, a trucking company truck we had hired and pulling a set of "Bogies" [the trailer frame with the wheels the container was placed on] would arrive at the impound yard.

A crane would place the Euroarms container on the Bogie. After it was locked down on the Bogie, the trucker would pull the container over to our warehouse in Winchester where we would unload all of the cartons from the container.

Now, while I am sure that some of the "rules" and procedures have probably changed somewhat, what I can tell you is that back in the 1970's Customs required that on every manufactured produce the "Country of Origin" be stamped or printed on the product. That is why on your Italian made firearms "Made in Italy" is stamped on them.

As the United States has NO "Proof Laws," hence, the proof stamps you see on your imported Italian firearms are there to meet the requirements of Italian law and not American laws. An argument that the Italian Proof Laws are obsolete can be made, because the Italian Proof House uses a very weak black powder for their proof testing. Combined with modern steels used by the replica manufacturers-the proof laws for black powder arms manufactured in Italy are redundant and only add to the cost of production of the arms.

The ATF REQUIRED that all firearms imported into the U.S. have the name of the manufacturer of the arm, the model AND A SERIAL NUMBER stamped on them.

A "Biggie" that Customs checks for is Copywrighted trade marks and brand names. For example, If I were to buy some cheap Chinese wrist watches and have the trade mark name "Timex" stamped on them to try to fool customers that I was selling them a genuine Timex product-if Customs determined that my shipment of watches was in violation of the copywright and brand name laws, then Customs could seize those watches and destroy them.

Actually, the system worked pretty good and Customs does a good job of enforcing U.S. laws. Many of those laws are for the protection of the final consumer of foreign made products.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Interesting, I did not know there was that much involved to import something.

[Maillemaker]

In fact, any import of value more than $2000 must go through a broker. I was annoyed by this being forced to hire a middle man to conduct the business when I was importing things.

Steve