HEELLP!!!

[Capnball]

Guys, I need some ID help. I bought a "Parker-Hale" musketoon thru the mail, and when I got it, there were NO "PH" or "Parker-Hale" markings on it anywhere. I am a gunsmith, and I see NO signs of defarbing or other modification. The barrel has italian proof marks, but there is NO maker's name anywhere on the gun. The three-letter code on the bottom of the barrel is an interlocking "DGG". Serial no. is 27526. The lockplate lacks the double-line engraving around the border, and is stamped with the crown over "1861" over "ENFIELD", WITH ALL STAMPING AHEAD OF THE HAMMER. The guy I bought it from claimed he thought it was '90s production. Any help on the subject would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!

Thanks,

Jordan Goodwin

[Dwambaugh]

Jordan,

Take the lock plate off, then tell me what it says on the bridle.


Dan

[bilge water bob]

I believe the DGG is a EOA, the initials of the founders.

[Capnball]

Dan,
My humble apologies. Please read my PM on CWRF.

To everybody else: Dan's right. The lock is marked PH on the INSIDE. As the barrels for the later PH's were manufactured by EoA, (so I read) that explains the italian proof marks. Any futher help on dates (or anything else) would be appreciated.

[Boyd Miles]

I can only tell you what early production Parker Hales have for marks.
Top of barrel: PARKER-HALE LTD. BIRMINGHAM ENGLAND (in front of the sight) black powder proof stamps (at breech and tang)
Side of barrel at breech: serial number
Stock: PARKER HALE LTD (in circle)
Lock plate: 1861 over ENFIELD (in front of hammer) Crown over P-H (behind hammer)
Bridle: P-H (clearly stamped, I have seen faint P-H stamp on bridle of early Euro Arms)

This is all from my Parker-Hale musketoon, hope it is helpful.

[Blair]

Boyd,

You are correct.
Euroarms was suppling parts to Parker Hale. Parker Hale would then take those parts and fit and finish them to their standards.
I have a Cook & Brother carbine lock (late 1970's) and it too has the PH casting stamp on the bridle. This C&B lock was made by Euroarms not PH.

The DGG in a circle is actually the Euroarms/Armi Sam Paolo Manufactures/Makers mark.
Blair

[John Holland]

Arms with the three intertwined initials, "GDG", were originally manufactured by Armi San Paolo S.r.l.

Euroarms S.r.l., became the proprietary name, and arms made by them still had the GDG emblem representing the company’s founders, Grassi, Doninelli, and Gazzola.

And, yes, they appear to read "DGG".

Of course, Euroarms has recently passed into the annals of history.

JDH

[Blair]

John,

Thanks.
I could not remember what the initials meant nor how they were actually meant to be read DGG, GGD or GDG.

Jordan also had a question, he posed to me in an e-mail regarding how the lock plate may or may not have been bordered/lined. I could not remember just how the Musketoon would have been bordered on the Parker Hale lock.
Any help there might help him out too.
I think the lock maybe a PH product. But, can not be sure without being able to see and check the internal assembly methods, or the thread pitchs.
Blair

[Boyd Miles]

Sorry about leaving that out, it doesn't have a line around the lock plate, at least mine doesn't. #73**

[Blair]

Boyd,
That is what he wanted/needed to know. Thanks for your imput

[Capnball]

I appreciate all the info, guys. Blair, I will check the nipple and screw threads on tues. when the gunsmith nextdoor opens up. He's got thread gauges, and mine got kinda burnt in a housefire. :(

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Perhaps this may offer some explanation for the lock plate bordering. Evidently, the later Italian-made (EOA) Parker-Hale products bore lock-plates with a double-line border, whereas earlier British-made products either had no border (like the original RSAF-made arms) or only a single border, though I don’t know if there is any logic to explain when this change was implemented. Below is an example of the double-line border lock-plates (Italian-made), and below it is one of the other P-H muskets I owned (#94xx) only had a ‘single-line’ border. Last is provided a link to one showing the early “no border” specimen (#2537). All are 1861 Enfield musketoons and bear the Coronet P-H on the lock and the P-H stock cartouche.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii305/rmac1023/PH36xxx2.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii305/rmac1023/DSC01511.jpg

http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=15705

As was reported on the BB a year ago, when Brannen Sanders worked for Louis Amadi (the founder of Euroarms), he took Louis an original 1862-dated LACo P/53 rifle musket to Italy for Louis to use as a pattern but on arriving learned that Louis had already secured patterns based on Parker-Hale’s production. I bought my first Euroarms P/53 Enfield (#2155) from Mike Yeck in 1979, and later bought one of the C&B carbines (#633) in 1981. Both had bridles marked in raised letters “P-H” clearly indicating the bridles had either been made by Parker-Hale or had been investment castings copied from a Parker-Hale bridle. As near as I am aware, the post-1990 transitional production of Parker-Hale (after purchased by Val Forget), were augmented with parts produced by Euroarms. But exactly where this transition fell in the serial number sequence is not known, though some have suggested this occurred in the 11,000 range.

Given Jordan’s description, I suspect what he may have is a standard Euroarms 1861 Enfield musketoon, noting that the lock is not marked with the coronet over P-H nor bears the P-H stock cartouche. These marks and the barrel markings are the only significant differences between the P-H line and the standard Euroarms product line. Whether the barrel was made in Birmingham or Timbuktu, a British-made barrel must bear the country of origin markings so to qualify for export inclusive of the black-powder proof (coronet over BP), and similarly must be submitted again to proof in Italy (under Italian export laws) to qualify for export, hence why the EOA production of Parker-Hale products bear both British and Italian proofs. To place the BP proofmark on the barrel in Italy would violate international copyright laws, and would essentially make the article a counterfeit, subject to seizure and destruction by whatever country imports it.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13146&hilit=Amadi (http://n-ssa.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13146&hilit=Amadi)

[Capnball]

Guys, I REALLY appreciate the info. Mr. McAuley, your information is VERY helpful! This whole thing has taught me a ton about repro Enfields. I agree. My carbine seems to be nothing more than an EoA, although a variation that I was not familiar with. The man that sold it to me offered to refund my purchase, but I decided to keep the gun, as I only paid $355, including shipping. You get what you pay for, sometimes :wink: The rifle seems to be quite accurate, and although I would like to purchase a PH sometime in the not-too-distant future, I believe it will satisfy my craving for an Enfield Musketoon, for the time being anyhow.