How much powder????

[efritz]

Anybody know approx. how much 2F powder is needed to make a breech loaded firearm bullet go about 500 fps without me burning too much powder to find out??

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

That's a pretty open ended question. Could you please provide some more specific info please? Caliber, bullet weight, maybe barrel length, cartridge gun?

[efritz]

.45 LC, approx. 300-350 gr

[efritz]

15 gr. only got it down to 625 fps.

[John Holland]

Eric -

I'm curious, why do you want the velocity that low?

Even the Aguila subsonic .22 ammo out of a rifle is 800+ FPS.

John

[Muley Gil]

"15 gr. only got it down to 625 fps."

efritz,

Is this out of a rifle/carbine or a revolver/pistol and what length barrel are we talking about? I presume you are using some sort of filler over the powder charge.

[Blair]

Is there a reason for using such a heavy bullet in a .45 Colt?

[Eggman]

Didn't Nolan Ryan throw a baseball about 600 ft per second??

[efritz]

This is out of a Ballard rifle with 1:26 twist .457 bore. And Nolan Ryan used smokeless and didn't throw in the rain. What a wuss.

[efritz]

John,

Been experimenting with the Ballard rifle. According to the Miller rule, if I get down to 500-600 fps with a 300-350 gr bullet using a .457 sized bullet with 1:26 twist it will fall below the 2 threshold. I'm hoping there's enough energy left to punch a hole in the paper clean through at 50y. At 100y if I use the mortar elevation chart, I'm hoping gravity will take over and punch clean through. I've been conversing with Dave France on the subject and he's been very helpful. It's kind of fun watch the Miller take effect on a larger bullet that seems to be working although there's some fine tuning to be done. The big concern is not cracking the block like some have reported.

Regards
Eric Fritz
149th PVI

[jerry ashley]

Eric have you been around Alvin too long? This load may not go thru paper, it may bounce back at you. We need you on left end this year so make sure you wear that bullet proof vest for protection. That 350 grain bullet does seem heavy. It may not go thru the water filled cups, like someone else we know.

[John Holland]

Jerry -

I think I'm with you on this one ! ! !

John

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

Would not a good stiff wind, or even a quick gust of wind throw such a slow moving bullet?

[Bill Weitz]

I shoot a 300g bullet with 14g of 2f and some filler out of my 45lc Henry. Sounds better wimpy when it goes off but it tears up 100yard targets. I have no idea how fast is going.

[Southron Sr.]

With such light powder charges you are running the risk of getting a bullet stuck in your bore. That is no BIG DEAL unless you don't realize you have a stuck bullet. Then with the next shot you will most likely ruin your barrel by causing it to swell where the bullets collide in the bore.

ALso, realize that for purposes of accuracy, the twist of your rifling is calculated for a general (within reason) bullet weight(s) and velocities.

[efritz]

Let me do some replying.

Jerry,
I don't know about being around Alvin too long, but I have been around a long time.

Blair,
The reason is, and I may be answering a couple of others, it's a Ballard rifle that has been relined with a bore of .457-.458 and 1:26 twist. There aren't many bullets to choose from in the .458-.459 sizes. Many are 45-70 bullets, especially the larger ones over 400-600 grs. It's tough to find small ones. The next obstacle is finding one that will work. I have found that none of the under 385gr. bullets work nor according to the Miller rule will they work. Not until I get up to and over 385 gr. with a velocity of 850 fps, which is normal, will a good group appear. Now according to the Miller rule, if I get a 300-350 gr. bullet down to 500-600 fps. then the bullet stabilizes and falls within the acceptable parameter which is 1.3-2.0

Southern and Joe.
During my trials I did have one round that I didn't put powder in. The bullet went half way down the barrel. The primer alone did that. I would think that at least 10 grs of powder would be enough to push it the rest of the way. Although I'm not going that far down in my experiments. I am going to try down to 13 grs. before I quit trying to get to 500-600 fps. I understand that unless I'm shooting indoors, wind will definetly be a problem. Interesting enough I do shoot single shot indoors during the winter months with reduced loads. We shoot single shot competition using .22, under 40 cal., over 40 cal, military, and shutzen. No bolt or lever guns. Lots of fun and something to do in the winter. Of course we use smokeless.

Bill,
I understand about the Henry but I think, not sure, the rifling is different and your bore is probably smaller. Likely in the .452-.454 range. That will open up a wider range of bullet choices.

Hope that answers all the questions and concerns.
Stay tuned for later developments.

Regards
Eric

[John Holland]

Eric -

The next time you stop by camp to visit with Riehle maybe I'll come over and sit down and listen to you both for awhile.

John

[jerry ashley]

Eric - might have a bullet for ya to try. its a .457-330gr. Want some samples to try?
Jerry

[Jack C., 69th NY]

Eric,
Rapine had a 457250. I picked up a used one. Supposed to cast .457, 250 grains. I want to try it unsized in my .457 3 band Ballard rifle. This bullet with 20 to 25 gr. of ff Swiss won't be too much for a Ballard receiver. We'll see......... in the next few weeks.

[efritz]

Jack,
Do you or anyone else for that matter know what the twist is on an original Ballard rifle and carbine? With that knowledge, the bullet length, weight, size and velocity, you can go to jbmballisics.com. Look for calculators in the left hand box, go down to the high lighted word, stability and click on that. A box will appear that you can substitute numbers, (bullet caliber,length, weight, velocity etc) to determine a bullets stability. It should be within 1.3 to 2.0. Dave France wrote a very good aticle in the past Skirmish Line about this. So far I have found it to work. Any bullet I've tried that wasn't within that range has not worked. By plugging in 500 fps in the velocity box my 300-350 gr bullets will stabilize. Haven't had the time yet to try it to prove it. More on that later. Bear in mind, it does not work with hollow based bullets or round ball. It may not work for hollow points either. Also note that when either/or temperature or velocity goes up, so does the stability number and vis-versa. So if you have a stability of 1.9 at 45 F., the bullet may not be stable at 90 F when we're shooting competition.

Regards
Eric Fritz

[Blair]

Eric,

Just a thought on my part...
Try a light powder load (with perhaps some filler, of your choice) and a light bullet weight (of the prober dia. to fit your bore).
Reduced powder and bullet weight should reduce the pleasure on the breech block. "If" saving the breech block from cracking is what you are after?
I have no idea what all this other stuff is about you are referring to. A great big old fat bullet with a tiny powder charge... just seems to be looking for trouble. Again, this is just just my opinion.
Sorry. Not too scientific I am afraid. But, if it works, shoot it.
All the rest of this stuff is like 'picking at nits'
Blair

[John Holland]

It's not the breech block you have to worry about cracking, it's the frame.

JDH

[Jack C., 69th NY]

Eric,
I've tried to check the rate of twist on a Ball & Williams as well as a Brown Mfg. Co. but I can't seem to get the right combination of brush or jag or patches to consistently turn the cleaning rod with the rifling. It appears to be 1:30 or 1:28 but it could also be a gain twist? Maybe someone can jump in here and point me (us) in the right direction with how to properly check the rate of twist.

[efritz]

Jack,
I've been hearing that lately that it is a gain twist but I tried an internet search on the subject and came up with nothing. Everything refers to the marlin ballard and yes they do have a gain twist. I would imagine that the twist at the end would be the one that matters when trying to apply the Miller rule in choosing a bullet to work with but that could difficult to measure with a cleaning rod. I don't think there's enough barrel left to get an accurate measurement.

[efritz]

Well gents. 13 grs. of 2F Swiss wasn't low enough to get a 350 gr. bullet down to 500 fps. 605 was the slowest and the group wasn't any better than with 23 grs fo 2F. I did pack the rounds with a little filler. Just enough to compact it so the powder wouldn't mix with the filler and yet keep the powder back against the primer. But then, after John put the gahoulees on me, I tried my 410 gr with 24 and 26 grs. Then the frame cracked. Very small, but cracked. Looks like it's back to the Wesson.

Are guys getting the frames welded up? Is it working? What are the options on fixing the Ballard?

Regards to all
Eric

[Blair]

"Are guys getting the frames welded up? Is it working? What are the options on fixing the Ballard?"

Regards to all
Eric[/quote]

Reply,
Buying a Maynard!
Or, prrhaps, to keep the pressures down, using a "light" powder charge and bullet?
Again, just a thought on my part,
Blair

[Bill Weitz]

The reason I went with the 300 gain bullet and the light load was I understand the the Henry 45lc has a agressive twist around what you talking about. A heavy load and a small bullet will strip though the rifling. The 300gn bullet is long, 2f burns slower and the 14gn of power gave me a 1 inch group of the bench and holds together a 100 yards.
Maybe the formulas don't back me up, but it's working for me.
-Bill