PDA

View Full Version : Henry bore leading



Bob Huntoon
03-18-2011, 09:56 PM
What is causing bore leading in the 4 inches in front of the chamber in my henry?

Cleaning it last fall, the patch brought out stringers that looked like the old kind of metallic "icicles" we used to have for Christmas Trees - back in the day.

429 bore - shooting 430 bullets probably about brinell 12.

Had bore leading on Cowboy '73 and knew it was a lube problem.

Any ideas - suggestions?

Digger

DAVE FRANCE
03-18-2011, 11:38 PM
Hi Bob,

I read a lot about ammunition for Henrys and lever rifles in the past three years.

I think the most common cause of leading is caused by pressure making the bullet expand enough to cause RADIAL pressure that is too much for the lube to handle without the lube breaking down so there is bare metal to bare metal. That is very much like what happens in engines if the oil pressure is not high enough and the oil film thick enough.

I would try reducing the diameter of the bullet by another thousandth when you size the bullet. I read that if the throat in front of the chamber is not right, that will cause leading. It needs to neck down to the groove diameter, not smaller. Both of the lever rifles I have have the same throat diameter as the groove diameter. I have an excellent reference about rifle accuracy, and the author says no factory rifles are chambered accurately. (RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS)

I went to the range about three weeks ago and forgot my cleaning rod. I shot at least 50 rounds with my 73 Winchester without cleaning and had no problem. I just use 60% beeswax and 40% Mobil One. I went to a silhouette shoot with the same rifle the next week, and I did not have time to clean between events. So, I fired 60 rounds without cleaning and the rifle was still shooting well, and I found no trace of leading afterwards.

I use the same bullet (at least nominally - .528) as the bore (groove diameter) of my rifle. I size the bullet at .528 and lube with a lubrisizer. the bullet cleans up all the way around, but little metal is removed. The bullets are not perfectly round before sizing, but I don't think any cast bullets are. I talked to Tom L., Rich C., and Bruce C., about this a year or so ago. And they agreed that bullets won't come out of the mold perfectly because of uneven cooling of the mold and bullet.

The NRA did a big study of sizing bullets versus no sizing. They did a very detailed, very long, test of sized versus unsized bullets in pistols that was reported in the "Cast Bullets" book by the NRA. The unsized bullets did better. You have to size some to get bullets that will fit the bore. One reloading book I have says that the more that is sized off the worse the accuracy will be. Can't remember which one.

I joined SASS and NCOWS last year. NCOWS shoots at longer distances. There are 6 places that shoot CAS or silhouette within 100 miles from where I live - just East of Dallas. And there are a lot more withine 150 miles.

I bought my copy of Cast Bullets from a reloading shop in Michigan. The original price on the book was $1. It first belonged to a shooter who passed away. Now I have had it for over 25 years, and I still value it, even though one of my dogs ate the front cover off.

Good luck!

Let me know what you find out.

David

DAVE FRANCE
03-19-2011, 10:12 AM
CORRRECTION FOR MY LAST POSTING

I should have written the number 0.428 where I wrote .528.

David

Joe 3rd N C Art 2440V
03-19-2011, 10:38 AM
As with shooting lead boolets in any cartridge rifle, size 1 - 2 thous. over bore. Your bullets are probably too small.

Rebel Dave
03-19-2011, 11:23 AM
Make sure you are using the corect alloy lead. What is brinnel 12,??. I can't find my chart, but I only use soft lead, in my 73 and 66 Wins (Ubertis). 12 might be to hard. Actually, I use the same lead as for my muskets. They are .001-.002 over bore dia.

Use a bullet with good lube carrying capabilty. Use only natural ingredience in your lube, just as in your musket. I use 50/50 bees wax and tallow, varying the mixture with the time of year, and temp. I use a .030 white cardboard wad (I get them from Track of the Wolf) over my compressed black powder load, it seems to work good, don't know if it helps or not tho.

I had good results with commercial bullets from Buffalo Arms Co. and Bullets from powder Inc. They use SPG lube in their bullets. resonable prices also. I have also read lots of good about Big lube LLC bullets and molds, they're bullets carry lots of lube.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

Rebel Dave

Walt Magee
03-19-2011, 07:58 PM
Try putting a couple of layers of dental bite wax under the bullet along with 50/50 beeswax and crisco on the outside. That should slow down the leading but everyone I know has experienced some amount of leading.
Walt

DAVE FRANCE
03-19-2011, 09:35 PM
I have never had any sign of leading in any firearm I have owned. I used fairly hard lead for all breech loading ammunition, and I used different types of lube. I did not use Crisco in any lube, but tried many others. I think the leading witch just puts a spell on some who are unlucky. I was married to a witch once; maybe she helped me with an antispell.

David

Yancey von Yeast, 8073
03-19-2011, 09:41 PM
I started with a brand new Cimmarron Henry. Mine had a bore from the factory that was so rough that I could feel it with a patch on a jag. Mine leaded and even clean, did not shoot anything but a pattern. Bob Hoyt lined mine and now it is amazing. One hole from a rest at 50 yards is standard. I have tried soft and hard lead and found that I go no leading with either but the group size was 1/16th inch tighter with 1/20 tin and pure lead. I also use Dave's mobile one and bees wax lube. I like the 429667 from Lyman for a bullet. It is 240 grains and holds a nice amount of lube.

DAVE FRANCE
03-20-2011, 04:49 PM
Yancey,

I think your rifle with the Hoyt barrel shoots better than most Henrys. Do you agree? Both lever rifles I have will shoot about one inch groups at 50 yards.

David

Yancey von Yeast, 8073
03-20-2011, 09:52 PM
Dave,

I have no prior experience with Henrys other than mine. From what I am hearing it does shoot very well. I have heard of others having tons of problems and Hoyt says that they won't shoot black powder well with the factory barrels.

It also shoots the Mav Dutchman big lubes well, but It actually does better with the 429667 so I have not invested the money in the big lube mould. I have never skrimished with the Henry, I'm married to my sharps rifle.

DAVE FRANCE
03-20-2011, 10:49 PM
Yancey,

I shoot the same bullet you do and don't need a bullet that holds more lube. That bullet carries enough lube.

I saw a Henry that had a twist that was much faster than all the Henrys I have looked at. They must have used the same twist for the rifle they used for a revolver. One or two Skirmishers who are tool makers told me they had something wrong with their Henry barrels and they are guys that can tell.

I asked Jim Leinicke years ago which round was best for the Henry and he said both are good.

A book (RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS) states that all production rifles have a chamber that is not good. So, I can believe that Hoyt's barrels are better.

In some of the things I read about shooting cast bullets in lever rifles, it says that some people use soft lead and some even shoot bullets without a lube. That may be true only for revolvers. Also, I have read that bullets will lead if they don't fit the throad well. both of the Uberti rifles I have have a throat that seems good.

I measured the jump on my Henry - the distance from the chambered bullet to where it enters the rifling. Shorter is better and for cast bullets it can be zero. It was about 0.200 on my Henry. That is probably something that Hoyt does better.

David

John Holland
03-20-2011, 11:11 PM
OK, I'm weighing in, and no that's not a FAT joke!

My Henry rifle is a very early import from Allen Arms in .44-40. It shoots extremely well with consistent ten ring accuracy at 100 yards. I have never had any leading problems with it. The bullet I use is a .427 cast from an old original Winchester 44 WCF mould. They cast at .427 and are fired unsized. The lead is back stop recovered using anything that isn't a minie ball. The lube is a home made concotion of bees wax & Crisco. I never shoot it using the magazine for several reasons. Number one is that the weight of the rifle changes with every shot and consistancy is critical. Number two, I wiped the bore between shots, again consistancy. Number three I loaded the rounds over-length so that there was no jump to the throat, did I mention consistancy? The last item, over all cartridge length, also prevented me from using the magazine since the cartridge was too long to feed through the action. Of course I was not the first choice for our Henry Team!

So, I'm with Yancey, Single Shot Team Match for me! No, not with the Henry, but that's another story.

John

DAVE FRANCE
03-22-2011, 07:46 PM
Hi John,

I tried loading longer rounds through the top, but the jump was so long on my rifle I quit trying. And I couldn't shoot it well enough for it to make any difference.

About the lead hardness. I got samples of bullets from several skirmishers who had Henrys that shot well. The hardness was from 8 to a very high number (20? - I don't remember). People shoot Henrys with a wide range of hardnesses.

I load 44-40 rounds for another lever action rifle and I make the rounds as long as I can and still chamber through the magazine. I make them a very consistent length. I don't think it matters a lot, but I like making good ammunition. I bought some better loading equipment and I try to load more like a factory would than I used to (consistently, safely, and fairly rapidly). I check each overall cartridge length with a caliper set for 1.590 inches. It only takes a second or two to check, and I don't want one to have a round not feed.

I have heard some about some bad accidents around where I live since I moved to Texas. One man said his son's Henry fired the rounds in the magazine. He is a neighbor of mine.

The second a man who works for Cimarron and is a gunsmith, told me he had some powder ignite while pouring it into a container, caused by static electricity. I think he is an electrical engineer. This is different that trying to ignite powder in a pile by electricity.

The third man I met at a silhouette shoot, and he told me he does not use black powder because he burned his arm badly. I did not get any details.

Sorry for getting off the subject.

About single shot rifles. The type of rifle I have enjoyed shooting the most is the Sharps carbine.

David

Ken Hansgen, 11094
03-22-2011, 09:06 PM
Hey Dave, Can you find out any more about that electrical engineer who said he had some powder ignite while pouring it into a container? Now you've got my attention as I do that all the time when finishing a loading session and I pour the unused powder in my measure through an aluminum funnel back into a can, usually a can with more powder already in it. Now I wonder, am I cruisin' for a bruisin'?

Ken Hansgen, 11094
03-22-2011, 09:16 PM
My apologies to Bob for getting so far off the subject of his Henry's bore leading. Guess I'll just start a new thread. Dave, when you see this, please submit your answer on the other thread. Thanx,

Bob Huntoon
03-22-2011, 10:50 PM
No apologies necessary.

Forums like this are where we learn things that we don't seem to have time to find out for ourselves.

From what you have mentioned, I have yet to see what I am doing wrong with this Henry to cause the throat leading.

When I first got this piece, I shot it using Veral Smith's (LBT Moulds) Bore lap compound. The accuracy was good - even with the lead fouling, I was not noticing any degardation in accuracy. THAT is why the throat leading was such a surprise.

Lube was SPG.

Have used the dental wax in my Bobby Hoyt fast twist Smith for many years, but shooting 22 grains of 3f and corn meal to max in the Henry, don't know as it would work as well.

Still puzzled. May try dead soft lead and see what happens. Undersized bullet does not make sense from my experience.

Reading my post - let me make clear - the leading in the 73 was in the last 4 to 6 inches from the muzzle - a definite lube problem.

Digger