New shooter - just waiting for my rifles to get here!

[Maillemaker]

So I have purchased an original 1863-stamped Enfield and a Euroarms 1853 Enfield. Just waiting for them to arrive!

I've also ordered the Lee "Original" minie ball mold and some 99.9% pure lead from Rotometals.

Can you shoot these rifles with "naked" bullets, or do I need to make up actual paper cartridges, so that the bullets are sleeved in paper?

I reload modern cartridges as well. Does Lee Alox Lube work well on minie balls?

Can't wait to shoot my new guns! I've got a good friend over in Georgia who is somewhat of an expert in 1853 rifles - I'm going straight to him with them for shooting lessons and how-to operate lessons.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Oh, what kind of percussion caps do you use with these rifles?

[Eggman]

I'll give you an initial burst. Are yoiu and N-SSA member?? There are units all over Georgia that shoot in the Deep South and Carolina Regions. Check the website listings.
The original .575 mini should work well in your repro Enfield. I had great results with that bullet using a beeswax/oil/soap combination lube and 35 grains of 3f black powder. We all use the big musket caps.
We do not use paper cartridges. We all use plastic cases with the powder contained and the bullet stuck in the end nose first. Our loading procedure is pretty much like the original although we do not have flaming paper in our guns. See some of the listed vendors for the plastic cases.
I don't know what to say about your original Enfield. Unless they are premium they usually have a lousey bore and are not usable in the fast firing N-SSA. Here's hoping your musket friend is an N-SSA person.
Welcome to the forum.

[Maillemaker]

Thanks for the reply!

I'm actually located in Huntsville, Alabama. My friend is Jesse Bailey, who has done Civil War reenactments for some years. I don't know if he's part of the NSSA or not. I know everyone has "a friend" who is supposedly an expert in something but from my discussions from Jesse I'm pretty sure he knows his stuff. I love talking with him on the phone about rifles as he is a living encyclopedia.

Yeah, I don't know if the original Enfield will be a shooter or not. It looked in pretty good shape from the pictures I saw when I bought it on Gunbroker, so I took a gamble on it. But my doubts is what prompted me to go ahead and buy a Euroarms before the original even arrived. :)

I'm told (Jesse again) that if the original rifling is shot there is a guy out there who can sleeve and re-rifle the bores. I know this is probably a travesty to many enthusiasts out there but I have always owned firearms with an eye towards owning them forever and shooting them and I am leaning heavily towards "restoring" this rifle as opposed to "preserving" it. This makes Jesse's skin crawl also. :) From its markings, this rifle almost certainly has no ACW history as it is a 1st issue that was probably reserved for British use only, unless it somehow found its way here when it wasn't supposed to.

So you guys shoot "naked" bullets then?

Steve

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

As said above, your minies need to be lubed. Dip them in a mixture of 50/50 olive oil and bees wax, allow to cool and THEN load. A charge of anywhere from 40 to 50 grains of either FF or FFF BLACK powder should work. No need to go over that charge for what you're doing.BTW, you may need to fill the cavity of the minie with lube also. AND for best results the bullet should be sized about .001" smaller than the bore. Hope this gets you there.
As for the original, yes, the barrel can be relined. Most of us just shoot the originals with the relined bore and don't really "restore" the rest of the rifle.

[Maillemaker]

Do you think Lee Alox Lube would work well for lubricating minie balls?

I've got about 10 bricks of beeswax laying around through, for a project that never went anywhere.

But the Lee Alox lube is easy to apply and works great at lubing and reducing leading in my modern reloads.

Thanks for the charge info. Can you use Pyrodex instead of black powder? I think the conversion is not 1:1, I can't remember.

I'm probably going to send the Euroarms off to the Blockade Runner to be defarbed. I'm contemplating doing a full restore on the original, too, correct blueing, color case hardening, new stock, the works. I don't know though. Have to see what it looks like when I get it.

Steve

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Mailmaker, An N-SA member lives in Huntsville--I don't remember his name right now but will do some research for you.

I invite and advise you to attend an N-SSA Deepsouth Region skirmish to see how we do it. The next one is from about Noon Mar 18 'til about Noon Mar 20 at Brierfield Ironworks State Park near Montevallo, AL. The one after that is at the same place on Apr 15-17. You could even shoot with us, tho' not in competition!

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Mailmaker, An N-SA member lives in Huntsville--I don't remember his name right now but will do some research for you.

I invite and advise you to attend an N-SSA Deepsouth Region skirmish to see how we do it. The next one is from about Noon Mar 18 'til about Noon Mar 20 at Brierfield Ironworks State Park near Montevallo, AL. The one after that is at the same place on Apr 15-17. You could even shoot with us, tho' not in competition!

Steve,

If it will help, I'll be visiting Huntsville next week (13-18 March 2011) if you want to contact me by PM, and we can maybe get together and I can relate how all this stuff works.

[Eggman]

One additional comment about lubes, I think I used that Alox or whatever years ago. Opinion - I'm doubtful whether it will melt fast enough. You need a LOT of lube to keep the minies accurate. The easy route - get some Pete's Lube or Gonnorhea Salve from Lodgewood.

[Tom Magno, 9269V]

Do you think Lee Alox Lube would work well for lubricating minie balls?

I've got about 10 bricks of beeswax laying around through, for a project that never went anywhere.

But the Lee Alox lube is easy to apply and works great at lubing and reducing leading in my modern reloads.

Thanks for the charge info. Can you use Pyrodex instead of black powder? I think the conversion is not 1:1, I can't remember.

I'm probably going to send the Euroarms off to the Blockade Runner to be defarbed. I'm contemplating doing a full restore on the original, too, correct blueing, color case hardening, new stock, the works. I don't know though. Have to see what it looks like when I get it.

Steve

Alox will not work with black powder loads - it forms a black tar on the inside of the barrel and is a beotch to get clean. As has been recommended, use 50/50 beeswax and crisco or beeswax and olive oil - the lube on these guns is for keeping the fouling soft, not for preventing leading. It works - 150+ yrs of experience I don't question. No need to relearn old lessons. Welcome to the fun!

[Maillemaker]

Does anyone have a recipie for how to make the beeswax and olive oil lube? Do I just melt 50/50 beeswax and olive oil and dip the bullets in it? Does it dry "hard", or does it stay runny?

Also, I gather this is for shooting "naked" minie balls, not ones still in their paper-lubed cartridges like the British and Confederates seemed to use? It looks like the paper cartridges were lubed initially with beeswax and tallow, and later the tallow was dropped. Looks like they just dipped the bullet end of the cartridge in wax and then that whole end of the cartridge went down the barrel, paper, wax, and bullet.

[Tom Magno, 9269V]

Does anyone have a recipie for how to make the beeswax and olive oil lube? Do I just melt 50/50 beeswax and olive oil and dip the bullets in it? Does it dry "hard", or does it stay runny?

Also, I gather this is for shooting "naked" minie balls, not ones still in their paper-lubed cartridges like the British and Confederates seemed to use? It looks like the paper cartridges were lubed initially with beeswax and tallow, and later the tallow was dropped. Looks like they just dipped the bullet end of the cartridge in wax and then that whole end of the cartridge went down the barrel, paper, wax, and bullet.

In a double boiler over low heat melt some beeswax. Once it is liquid add the same volume of olive oil, then stir. You can then turn off the heat - then dip your minnie balls (base first) up to the top of the grease grooves and set them on wax paper to cool/harden. The lube will cool and should be soft like butter (maybe a little harder than butter, but not much). Yes, this is for shooting the balls naked, no paper patch. Straight beeswax will be too hard and will flake and break off. You can vary the amount of beeswax to your liking depending on outside temp - more beeswax in hot summer, less for colder climates.

[kowdok]

Here's a little info from Carolina. A gentleman posted on this site a yr or two ago the following recipe for lube. 41% Neatsfoot oil ( pure not synthetic ), 41% Beeswax, and 18% neutrogena face soap. measure all by wt. I've tried it and have had good results with it. We do not use paper whatsoever so we lube the naked bullet. Fill the rings and some like to put a coat inside the hollow base. I use a special lubing can that shoots melted lube into the base of the minnie. I have a teammate that shoots an original Enfield and he decided to purchase a custom barrel to use when competing. This saves his original from any damage. Bobby Hoyt in our assn. is a master gunsmith and makes outstanding competition grade barrels for any gun at very reasonable prices. I suggest, if you really want to get the most enjoyment and satisfaction out of your guns, you need to strongly consider joining the N-SSA where you can showcase the ability of yourself and your guns. The Deep South region is the place for you to check out. Good luck!
Jim Rogers

[Blair]

A lubed Minnie ball is not a "naked" Minnie ball!

There are as many formulas out here for lube as there are shooters. The 50-50 beeswax/oil/Crisco/tallow is a basic starting point!
You may find, depending on temperatures at various time of the year, you will need to make modifications to this basic lube mixture to keep it a "consistent" texture at these differing temperatures.
You don't want the lube so lard in cool or cold weather that it becomes brittle. Anymore than you want it to become too soft, "runny", in hot weather.

Keep in mind, the lube helps keep the fouling soft, making the next shot easier to load. The lube will also help to improve the gas seal between the bullet and the bore.
Blair

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Or if you're too lazy (like me) you can buy a commercially-made lube (since you have opened up the famous lube subject, you'll notice that you will get a very large number of different favorite recipes for the stuff!!). I usually get mine at an N-SSA national skirmish which we hold 2X/year near Winchester, VA. I put my lube into a Lyman Lubrisizer and lube the grooves and size the minie at the same time. You may need to size your soft lead minies so they JUST slide down the bore--for best accuracy, I'm told, their diameter should be about 1-2 thousandths of an inch smaller than the bore of your rifle. Anything else down the bore, such as paper, is against the N.SSA's rules.

P.S. I'm still researching that member in Huntsville.

[Maillemaker]

A lubed Minnie ball is not a "naked" Minnie ball!

I'm probably not using the right terms, sorry. When I said "naked" I meant that it's just the lubed bullet going down the barrel, no paper.

My understanding is that the Confederate and British (who they copied and/or used their ammo) way of shooting was to keep the bullet in its lubricated paper cartridge end and push them both down the barrel. Federals were trained to remove the bullet from the cartridge and put it down the barrel by itself.

I understand now that you guys don't allow the paper and use some plastic tube or something for storing the powder and bullet in until use.



Steve

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14792 (http://n-ssa.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14792)

..tune in to the above for how we go about our business !!!

Phil

[Maillemaker]

Well, the original Enfield arrived today. Had a raccoon guarding the box on the front porch! :)

It looks to me to be in pretty good shape. However, there is no trace of rifling left in the bore. I've heard about a fellow named "Whittaker" that sleeves them? There is a very slight crack starting in the stock behind the lock plate and from the rear escutcheon towards the barrel. I understand these are common. The wood looks beautiful to me and the metal work looks amazing to me. There is an old Enfield in the local gun store (1862 lockplate) going for $575, and it is in much rougher shape than this one. Lots of pitting on the barrel and wood missing around the lockplate that has been filled with wood putty. I paid $800 for this one.

http://imgur.com/a/d1sIg

[Maillemaker]

I've tried googling for "Whittaker" Enfield sleeving but am not coming up with anything.

Does anyone have a link to people who can sleeve my Enfield?

[John Holland]

http://www.whitacresmachineshop.com

[Maillemaker]

Thanks for the link, John!

I've got some PMs on this gun, and it looks like it may be of Indian origin, which is just what my friend Jesse warned me against. :oops: But it may still be of British manufacture. Looking at it now I can see some Sanskrit writing stamped in the ramrod, near the head, and it looks like there may have been some additional markings on the top strap of the butt plate that someone tried to obliterate, also. Whether this was done intentionally on removal from service, or by someone trying to make it look more "British", or by someone unscrupulously trying to pass this musket off as non-Indian, I don't know.

I still like it, though. The wood is beautiful to me. It has a very deep luster to it yet it is so dark that I joked to my wife that it might be the original "black rifle". :)

Steve

[John Holland]

Steve -

In my opinion, your musket is of British origin, but had its final service with the Indian Army. No shame there! Get it re-lined and you will have a proper restoration to its original condition. Also, you will then have something you can enjoy shooting!

I hope you have found this website to be helpful and will continue to enjoy it.

John Holland
Moderator

[Maillemaker]

Thanks John!

Actually I kind of ended up here by default. :)

I tried signing up to a couple of other Civil War forums, but not only do you have to register, then verify your registration via email, but you have to wait for some moderator to approve your access! Out of desperation I went searching for other forums and came across this one, only to discover that I had registered here already a long time ago - probably when I originally got the bug for buying an Enfield some years ago. It's taken me about 3 years to convince my wife that I could buy one, and so I bought two! :)

Steve

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

PM sent.

[Blair]

Steve,

Dan Whitacer is a good choise for having your barrel done.
Might I suggest, instead of having the barrel re-sleeved, perhaps having a new drop in barrel made up for your Enfield. It would be a bit more expencive.
This will still keep your firearm original in all respects, but give you the ability to shoot it in a more compeditive inviornment.
Just a thought on my part.
Blair

[Maillemaker]

I am torn as to what to do with it.

I have a Euroarms on the way for actual shooting. I was hoping to be able to shoot the original, also, though. I'm a big believer in using the firearms that I own, I hate the thought of having a "non functioning" or "non useful" firearm. To my mind, if it doesn't work it's effectively broken and thus useless and, dare I say, worthless to me.

Without rifling, it's not much use as a rifle. If I want to make the firearm usable again, it's going to need a barrel sleeve. I'm not going to put a repro barrel in it, since I've already got a repro Euroarms 1853 on the way. I'm not too hung up about sleeving the barrel (though I can understand why some are), as it is a fairly hidden modification.

More concerning to me are the small cracks forming in the stock behind the lock plate and between the rear escutcheon and the rear of the barrel. I don't know how these cracks can be addressed with any kind of epoxy without stripping all the oils out of the stock so that the epoxy will take, and so that the crack can be penetrated with epoxy. I have an email in to a stock repair place to see their opinion.

Here is an example from their web page:

http://www.stockfixrs.com/gallery/lc_smith.htm

My friend Jesse says that with use the cracks are likely to get worse, which would mean they need to be addressed. I could re-stock the rifle, but that goes down the same road as re-barreling, to my mind. If it has to be completely stripped and de-oiled to restore it, now I'll have basically a brand-new-looking stock, though. At this point I'm tempted to completely re-finish the metal hardware also, with correct bluing and case hardening.

But then, I think, this is a lot of money to basically restore this old musket to what my repro will do "out of the box".

Right now I'm leaning towards preserving, not restoring, but I do want to make the gun shootable again.

I'm hoping the stock guys can address the cracks without a full stripping.

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

You may not know this as of yet, but this gun may have been bored out smooth and/or even made smooth bore for the Native troops in India.
So, to sleeve it may damage its originality. This was the reason for my suggestion.
The checks/cracks in the stock should be addressed before you use the gun.
Blair

[Maillemaker]

You may not know this as of yet, but this gun may have been bored out smooth and/or even made smooth bore for the Native troops in India.

I actually assumed this to be the case (that it had been bored out), as there is just no trace of any rifling whatso ever. The inside of the barrel looks like a shotgun barrel. Smooth as a baby's butt.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Well I just heard back from Whitacre's about re-lining the rifles. They said they can do it, but they have to "cut and stretch" the barrel. I'm not sure what that means (I've replied asking for clarification) but it sounds more invasive on the outside of the barrel than I envisioned. They make the cut under one of the barrel bands but still it's more than I was imagining of just boring out the barrel and slipping a frozen sleeve in it.

I'm beginning to question whether it is worth trying to turn this musket into a shooter. I hate the idea of a $800 wall decoration though. I may sell it and cut my losses. Put the money into defarbing the Euroarms. :)

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

There are persons on this forum that maybe able to help you better identify this weapon. Much better than I can offer. Providing you could help them with the makings that are on it.
Having a P-1853 Enfield type firearm that is smooth bore is not necessarily a bad thing. This depends greatly on a given collectors view point.
Overall condition of the item is the key.
Will you get the same potential accuracy out of a smooth bore as you might expect from a rifled firearm? Perhaps not depending on the range expectations.

Is there something about the overall condition of the bore, that might give you cause to think you can not shoot this arm? Stock checks not withstanding, I'm talking about the bore condition.
A smooth bore can offer many hours of shooting fun and satisfaction. Different from rifle shooting yes, but still very satisfying.
Just a thought on my part,
Blair

[Maillemaker]

Hi Blair,

To my eye, the inside of the bore looks very nice. No rust, no pitting. Just smooth. Not crystal smooth like the inside of my modern shotguns, but smooth and shiny still.

I'm sure smoothbore guns can be fun to shoot, I just set out to buy a P1853 Rifled Musket.

I suppose I should have asked more questions before buying but the fellow selling it was not able to take good close-up photos, and given the overall great condition of the gun otherwise I thought it was a great deal at $800 considering the condition I have seen other sold for for much more. Them's the risks of buying over the internet and I'm cool with that.

Like I said, I kind of planned for this contingency as I went and bought a Euroarms repro before this original even arrived. So I'll have a nice, shootable P1853 here in a few days.

But it's starting to sound like there is some major restoration going to be required, if only to repair the cracks in the stock, before this original will be a shooter, smoothbore or otherwise. Which means for now it's an $800 wall hanger. Which, at least, my wife is cool with since she can display it with her VT Corps of Cadets saber. :)

[Blair]

Steve,

quote, "it's starting to sound like there is some major restoration going to be required"
What you are describing here as "restoration", in this case may prove to be destruction of a historically correct firearm.
My suggestion is, don’t give up on this! At least, not until you take the time and effort and do the research to properly identify this firearm.
It can't hurt you to do so at this point.
Blair

[pittguy12]

Just to answer one of the questions I didn't see anyone else answer.... no, you cannot use pyrodex for N-SSA official events. Black powder only. I am personally not sure why but some of the other guys on here can probably enlighten you.

[Maillemaker]

Here are new, hi-resolution pictures of the Enfield:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/1853/ ... nfield.htm (http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/1853/1863/1863_enfield.htm)

[Maillemaker]

Tonight I very carefully and successfully disassembled the barrel and lock from the stock, and the reverse side of both appear in fine shape. There are numerous markings, and I will take pictures tomorrow after I get the parts gently cleaned.

Steve

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

I might have missed it but no one from the Deep South Region has invited you to a skirmish. As it happens, our next skirmish is the weekend of 3/18 to 3/20. We will be in Brierfield Alabama, at Brierfield Ironworks State Park. It is about an hour south of B'ham. Hope you can make it. We will be happy to give you a crash course on shooting the Enfield :) and maybe a few other types of firearms. :) If you come for the weekend, we can make it a long course. :D

Bring your firearms along with you. Richard Hill on our team can probably tell you everything you want to know about the original gun. He is considered by many to be an expert on foreign imports from our period of interest. Has a collection of them you would not believe! Green :lol: Small Arms Committee member to boot.

My team has a member in Huntsville, Robert (Bob) Shields. I suspect he will be willing to chat with you a bit and maybe help out some. If Bob is true to form, you may get to witness him put his cartridges together for the weekend!! :P :P :P (Razz for Bob, not you!)

Hope you can make it!

PS: If you cannot come then, I hope you can come when we (14th) will be hosting at Brierfield On the weekend of April 15-17. Hope you can come in next weekend, because we would like to spend some time recruiting you. While hosting, not a lot of spare time to talk with recruits and do the fun stuff.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Ed and others reading this threads, if you have not otherwise guessed this original musket is one of the Mutiny Enfields of the Pattern 1858 for Native Infantry which had utlized standard .577 Enfield barrels bored out to .656-inch smoothbore, and was a pattern approved in August 1858 replaced by the Pattern 1859 for Native Infantry smoothbore musket approved in May 1859 which is the more numerous and commonly encountered version that features a tombstone-style rear sight with V-notch and triangular block post front sight. The short-lived Pattern 1858 Indian smoothbore had utilized standard rifle musket sights. More information on these pattern arms can be found in the article entitled The Indian Enfield by DeWitt Bailey II for the Guns Review (October 1970).

http://www.antiquearmsandarmour.com/ima ... nfield.pdf (http://www.antiquearmsandarmour.com/images/The_Indian_Enfield.pdf)

One pecularity of this particular musket is that it has a replacement barrel bearing date of 1/65 (January 1865) along with RSAF Enfield inspection marks and a provisional proof (typical for smoothbores) but with the crossed pennants (i.e. Proof Act of 1868) rather than the earlier crossed sceptres. But as I have already supplied Steve, the butt roundel is for RSAF Enfield and below it is the number “1” indicating it was a 1st Class arm. Inside the circle bears “I” and broad arrow, indicative that the arm was accepted into the India Stores Depot for use in the Indian Services. The “50/I.S.P.” stamped into the stock was the unit designation for the 50th India Sikh Pioneers, part of the Bombay Presidency Army, and the musket was likely carried on the British expedition to Ethiopia in 1868 under the command of Lt-Gen Sir Robert Napier, commanding the expeditionary force. Besides those produced in England, India Pattern muskets and carbines were also manufactured on the Indian sub-continent and many of the British made arms issued there bear Indian arsenal refurbishment markings. Butt roundels and barrel stamps indicate widespread storage and refitting at arsenals such as Ishapore near Calcutta, Bombay, Madras and Lahore in earlier times. When governance was passed from the East India Company to the British Crown in 1858 after the Mutiny, arsenals were also established at Ferozapore, Rawalpindi, Quetta, Allahbad and Karachi in modern day Pakistan, Rangoon in Burma, Nakku or Kathmandu in Nepal, as well as at Fort William (Calcutta) and Ishapore in India.

[Maillemaker]

I have carefully removed the lock assembly and barrel, and updated the web page (scroll to bottom for latest pictures) showing images of the reverse side of the lockplate and the underside and end of the barrel.

http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/1853/ ... nfield.htm (http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/1853/1863/1863_enfield.htm)

[Maillemaker]

I have added pictures of the interior of the stock.

There are a couple of more cracks visible in the stock than were visible from the outside.

I'm guessing this would not make a good shooter without doing a stock restoration, whereby they leech out all the old oils, inject epoxy into the cracks to form the repair, and then refinish the stock. The stock repairman said they have an "antique" finish that they re-apply to preserve the appearance of old stocks like this.

Now that it seems this musket was probably intentionally converted to a smoothbore, I don't think I'd want to mess with changing that.

I imagine this would make a good re-enactor Enfield, though, firing only blanks, as it certainly looks the part of an 1863-era Enfield.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

The only problem I have with the "Mutiny Enfield" proposition is that my Enfield seems to have both a proper front and rear sight. The PDF article indicates they should have a different rear site and some of them had different front sites than standard Enfields?


Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Although the bulk of the Indian Enfields were introduced following the Mutiny, official records recognize the Pattern 1858 for Native Infantry as approved in August 1858, while its successor, the Pattern 1859 as only approved on 7 May 1859. There were a total of nine different variants or pattern muskets, fusils and carbines altered and sent to India, many approved on the same day in December 1858, though the Bengal Native Cavalry carbine, for example, was not approved until 22 February 1867. As I mentioned in my private message to you how “the Pattern 1859 smoothbore musket succeeded the short-lived Pattern 1858 Indian smoothbore as it was discovered that boring the original .577-inch barrel out to .656-inch resulted in a thin wall barrel,” that statement was derived from Ian D. Skennerton (2005) Small Arms Identification Series book entitled .577 Pattern 1853 Rifle Musket & Snider-Enfield, page 10, if you want to cite his source references (it costs about $10). Another of his titles that you might also like is the (2001) The Broad Arrow: British and Empire Factory Production, Proof, Inspection, Armourers, Unit & Issue Markings (costs about $35), which will explain the other various markings. Skennerton’s (2003) .577 Snider-Enfield Rifles & Carbines: British Service Longarms, 1866-c.1880 (about $40) is yet another good reference as is Dr. Christopher H. Roads (1962) The British Soldier’s Firearm: From Smoothbore to Smallbore, 1850-1864 (available from S&S Firearms for about $75). Your musket, like thousands of others like it, reflect the evolution in that arms' life since it was first manufactured, such that recognizing that the barrel was replaced, it was evidently replaced in-kind with another bored out rifled musket barrel rather than one specifically made for that pattern with the other set of simplfied sights. The alterations and modifications carried out in the native arsenals were not done by British artificers but were done mostly by native artificers, hired into the arsenals, so it would indeed be rare to find one of these specimens remaining in its original "as-issue" configuration. The more you learn about these guns, the more you find what you don't know.

[John Holland]

Steve -

You are correct, your Enfield is not a post-Mutiny model. They had non-adjustable block rear sights. The front sights are also a block with a wedge shaped top rather than a distince blade. As I remember the history of the India Mutiny, the Indian Regiments that remained loyal to the Crown continued to be armed with rifle muskets after the Rebellion was ended as an honor to them for their loyalty.

Your musket could be one of those since it was made in England at the Royal Manufactory at Enfield. That is what the stamp on the right hand side of the butt stock indicates. The barrel was definitly rifled. Why it is now a smoothbore is a matter of conjecture. The overstamps and the Indian markings are indicators of where it was actually used, and by which regiment.

It is a very nice condition arm for having come out of India. Do not have the bore restored by cutting off the barrel! That would destroy all historic value the arm has and relegate it to nothing more than a "shooter". I do know that Bob Hoyt has restored the bores in numerous musket barrels without cutting them off. Your musket is more deserving to hang on your wall, where you can enjoy the warm glow of a historic arm, rather than to be chopped up for no real purpose. If you could get someone to translate the regimental markings you may have yet another interesting page on what I am sure is a colorful history of use.

JDH

[Blair]

Steve,

You have produced some really great photos!

Doing stock repairs might be a very good idea. However, they may not be as extensive as those displayed in the repairs depicted in your earlier posting.
First, your stock is not a highly figured piece of wood on a custom stocked shot gun. These types of wood are very attractive, but they are also very fragile.
Repairing your stock "may" not require the complete stripping and degreasing and refinishing depicted in this earlier article/posting.

The firearm you now have is of the RSAF (Enfield) manufactured 4th Pattern, P-1853 type weapon. These were 100% interchangeable firearms of the highest and best quality in use within the British Military of the time. Very few of these 4th Pattern "Enfield" made arms actually saw service in this country during the American Civil War.

The original alteration/conversion would seem to be in 1 65 (Jan. of 1865). This could be within the ACW time frame, but, it may still not be what you want or expect/perceive as a usable/shoot-able firearm.
I will restate what I said earlier, Don't give up on this yet!
NOT! Until you learn just what IT is!
If shooting is all you have in mind... this gun may not be it. If that is the case then offer it up for resale or perhaps trade for something that foots the bill better to your percieved needs. (just a thought?)
There maybe others who find value in this piece (as it is) for what it is and can offers to their collection.
Blair

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Steve,

I hope you can make it to Brierfield next weekend. Several very more astute folks than I will be there and can tell you just about anything you want to know about your Enfield.

If the stock is usable, maybe a new drop in barrel might be in order. Bob Hoyt or Dan Whitacre make fine barrels that more or less drop into the existing stocks. You might want to talk with them about that option.

[Maillemaker]

If shooting is all you have in mind... this gun may not be it. If that is the case then offer it up for resale or perhaps trade for something that foots the bill better to your percieved needs. (just a thought?)
There maybe others who find value in this piece (as it is) for what it is and can offers to their collection.

I've been pondering this for days now. :) I've really enjoyed taking the firearm apart, cleaning it (which it needed very little of), and taking pictures of the various markings. I'm going to head to the library and look up the books that Mr. McAuley suggested.

From some of the links that Mr. McAuley posted, it seems that the British had a problem with the bored-out .577 Enfields as the thin walls actually made them unsafe to shoot. Which means that it might be unsafe for me to shoot. :)

While I am somewhat intrigued enough by the idea of owning a historical Enfield just for display's sake (I love the look of these muskets), it hurts my heart to spend $800 on a decoration when what I wanted was a firearm. However, from what little I've seen on Gunbroker and the local gun store that has an 1861 Enfield up on the wall in rough shape for $575 (but still has traces of rifling), I'm starting to think that if I wanted a real, historical, shootable Enfield I'm probably looking at $2000+ For that kind of money I can probably get a custom Pedersoli P1853 when they come available.

I've ruled out sleeving the bore. If sleeving entails cutting the barrel in half, which is what Whitacre said he'd have to do to prevent wrinkling of the barrel, then that means it would also have to be refinished, and at that point I might as well have a new barrel made, which means I might as well just get a repro musket (which I have already done! :) ).

The stock has several partial cracks propagating from the nipple-end of the barrel cavity and the lock cavity. It would probably be wise to have those taken care of before trying to use the rifle. My understanding is that in order to get a good epoxy bond in these cracks, the oils need to be leached out of the wood first, or the epoxy won't stick well. So, I have found a place that can probably restore the stock, and then re-finish it to approximate its appearance now. However, I have also found a place that can sell me a replacement stock. I've thought about just replacing the stock and keeping the old stock in safe keeping for later. But then I'm going to have some 148-year-old aged metal components, like the abused buttplate, installed on a pristine new stock. I've also heard that knocking the pins out that retain the spoon and the trigger assembly can splinter the wood, which means I might damage the original stock trying to get the brass components off of it. And one of the screws on the buttplate is so worn there is no longer a slot in it available for turning to get it out, which means I may have to try and dremel in a new slot or drill it out, either proposition being somewhat risky.

And then, if I do get the musket re-stocked, I'm shooting a bored-out Enfield that might not be terribly safe to shoot.

I'm tempted to hang onto it, simply because it's probably the best-looking original Enfield I'm likely to be able to afford to own for some years, and my wife is keen to hang it on the wall with her VT saber and other memorabilia we have. I think my two CVA 1851 "Navy" pistols would look nice next to it, too. But then I'm thinking, "Hey, for $800 I could go buy that 9mm XDM I've been wanting, too, and have something that actually works for my money." :)

But for now it's entertaining me learning about Enfields, all the markings on them, and the colonial history of India. I actually find this whole colonial India angle pretty cool. It's fascinating that the British gave the locals crippled weapons so that they wouldn't be so eager to try a revolt again. :)

Steve

[Maillemaker]

I hope you can make it to Brierfield next weekend. Several very more astute folks than I will be there and can tell you just about anything you want to know about your Enfield.

Can anyone just show up to watch?

Steve

[John Holland]

Steve -

All N-SSA skirmishes are open to the public with no admission charges. I know Ed Flint personally and I would encourage you to visit the skirmishes he has mentioned. You would really enjoy the experience!

JDH

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

All are welcome and particularly folks with a love of historical firearms. Sounds like your wife might like to see this also. We have several women/wifes that shoot in the DS Region. Some are pretty decent shots. Our commander is Nancy Hill, Richard's wife. Lovely lady with a dead eye shot.

Come on down next weekend.

[Maillemaker]

I'm coming to the skirmish this weekend.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Well, went to my first skirmish today. Looked fun!

Steve

[Lou Lou Lou]

Did you enjoy the team competitions?

[Maillemaker]

I only stayed for a couple of hours. There's only so much fun to be had watching other people shoot. :) All I saw were team competitions.

Steve

[John Holland]

Steve -

I'm glad to hear you enjoyed your visit to Brierfield.

As for skirmishing....Come on in....The water's just fine!

JDH

[RaiderANV]

Steve,

If ya get there earlier next time you'll get to shoot for free also. The N-SSA BOD made a change a while back allowing for prospective recruits to play for free during individual matches sorta to set the hook in ya! Green

[Maillemaker]

Well, my Euroarms came in, so hopefully now I have a shooter P1853 Enfield for N-SSA work!

Bob Kelley from the 4th LA has been real helpful and I hope to make it down his way soon to "learn the ropes".

Fresh Fish! :)

Steve

[jannypan]

what kind of percussion caps do you use with these rifles?