1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave"

[John Holland]

This discussion started on the WTS/WTB page. A poster made the suggestion that it was misplaced. I agree, so here we go folks! What are your thoughts?

It was mentioned that a "Zouave" was dug in a trench once upon a time. This is a legend that I've heard for some years now, but no one has ever been able to document it. There have been thousands of "gun parts" dug on Civil War sites, but not one single piece of a "Zouave". Not to the best of my knowledge anyway.

It was stated previously that the Federal Gov't contracted with Remington for "1855 type rifles". That is correct, and is a matter of record. But, the Gov't certainly didn't get what they thought they contracted for! What they got was a very clever product that utilized all the surplus 1841Mississippi Rifle parts Remington had left over from their last contract.

According to records Bannerman bought the entire lot from the Federal Government after the Civil War.

There is a persistant story that the French bought an unknown quantity of "Zouaves" from Bannerman early in the Franco-Prussian War and that they became German war trophys. It is interesting that at the first International Muzzle Loading Match the entire German Military Team was armed with brand new nearly unfired "Zouaves".

Carry on!

JDH

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

John,

I seem to remember reading the contract as calling for "Harpers Ferry Rifles" without specifying a particular model. This allowed Remington to combine the better features of the 1841 and 1855 Harpers Ferry Rifles which turned into the "Zouave." Also I read that the folks in Liege wound up with a number of the Remingtons that they bored smooth for the African trade. These have a Liege proof on the barrel at the left of the rear sight on the two I have had my hands on over the years.
In the debate about their seeing any service during the war we may want to consider that by the time they were in govt hands they were a seriously non-standard item. By 63 the military was getting weary of the logistics of having quantities of non-standard infantry weapons in the field and was intent on standardizing with the Springfield Rifle Musket patterns and were receiving sufficient quantities of Springfield and contract made rifle muskets to satisfy the demand. No army likes having a complicated ammo supply and maintenance problem plus they want everybody to look as much alike as possible.
That's the impressions I have had from what I have read. I believe the "Zouave's" stayed in the crates until Bannerman got ahold of them.

Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

[John Gross]

About 20 years ago, when Mr. Norm Flayderman still offered a print catalog, he had a military document in one of them which, by the wording, date, and context, lead Mr. F to believe it gave proof of issuance of the Zouave rifle. From what I remember, the wording of this document was something like "Our NEW Remington rifles with sword bayonet have been received," and was dated either 1863 or 64.

For something a little more substantial, on page 116 of The U.S. Model 1861 Springfield Rifle-Musket by Hartzler, Yantz, and Whisker, is pictured a Zouave rifle with bayonet, and the following caption.

"This unfired Remington [Zouave] rifle was brought home from the war by a Brightbill from Bedford, Pennsylvania. He paid $6.00 for the rifle and $2.00 more for the bayonet, upon discharge in Cumberland, Maryland. Dr. James B. Whisker Collection."

John Gross

[Blair]

Harpers Ferry Rifle's, M-1803, 1819 Hall rifles and carbines, M-1841 and the M-1855.
Within the time period, the M-1841 and the M-1855 (rifles only) will be referred to as Harpers Ferry Rifles interchangeably.(Springfield does not make any of these)
Remington does contract to make the M-1841 Rifle along with several other private arms makes.
The contract let to Remington dose indeed state Harpers Ferry Rifles with out designating a specific model year type.
Remington has the tooling from the M-1841 production. They builds their new model around the '41 lock type and barrel. They change the furniture to be very "similar" in shape and size to the brass mounted M-1855 Rifle. Curved butt plate, small patch box cover, short trigger plate, side lock washes, solid oval barrel bands place in about the same place as was on the '55 Rifles.

I have examined the relic remains of a Rifle that was excavated in and around the Richmond area. (Emergency Archeology resulting from Utility work) I helped Identify the this Rifle as an 1863 Remington Contract Rifle aka "Zouave". The brass furniture could have only been from that model firearm.
I requested a copy of the finished report so that I might see the overall context this Rifle was found in with this excavation.
This might have helped determine a time frame as to when the Rifle was lost. Was it a War time issuance, or post-war? I just don't know.
I never got a copy of that report. There may never actually have been a report written.
Blair

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Wow. It's a shame there is no hard evidence available like photos or the parts themselves. It would probably be a simple thing to get some testing done to ball park how long the stuff was in the ground.

Jim Brady
Knap's Battery

[John Holland]

Blair -

Since you personaly examined the excavated parts of the "Zouave", can you tell us exactly what parts you handled? Barrel, bands, lock, trigger guard, nose cap, etc?

I am very interested in the exact parts, date, and location. In addition, do you know who dug the relics, i.e., was it an archaeological CRM team (Cultural Resource Management). I ask these questions because if it was a CRM group reports are mandatory, although the Gov't doesn't always enforce the regulations.

Thanks,
John

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Ok I am going to put fourth another question. If Zovaes were not issued then why are they allowed for NSSA competition? And why Roger & Spenser's which we know were never issued and steel frame Henry's which the government never purchase. And then there is the caseharden frame Henry that was never manufacture. This may be a question for John Holland. :?

[John Gross]

Ok I am going to put fourth another question. If Zovaes were not issued then why are they allowed for NSSA competition?

Well, first off, the information I posted does offer some evidence that they were issued. Also, if there is more info available about the excavated relic Blair handled that may bolster the case for their issuance.

As to their eligibility in matches, even if they were never issued, if I am reading your rule 14.1 correctly it states that "[Eligible arms] must have been manufactured prior to April 26, 1865 in quantities of at least 100 arms each. The arms must have been possessed by a US, CS, state, or local military authority during the American Civil War, but they do not need to have been issued to troops in the field."

John Gross

[Blair]

John,

I examined the parts in one of the many State/City owns (old tobacco) warehouse located in the "old burnt district" of Richmond, VA. These were warehouses where a lot of such things were stored.
The parts I handled were the remains of what looked to be a complete rifle less about 90/95% of the wood.
These parts were in a cut in half plastic drum with water. There were other items in the water as well, but I do not know if they were associated with this rifle.
The butt plate and patch box were held together by a small amount of stock wood and separate from the other parts as a result of the decayed wood.
The lock area also had some small amount of wood but was otherwise a mass of conceited rust. No names, dates or other makings were legible through the rust.
I made my identification through the patch box cover, trigger plate (which was part of the concretion around the lock area) barrel bands and the nose cap (which were held by rust to the barrel and the remains of the ramrod).
The excavation was conducted by a team from James River Archeology. (if I remember the name correctly)
I can't, tell you the location of the find.
Blair

[Eggman]

You guys are making me nervous. I finally got my Zoili Zouave to perform just this past year (after about 14 years). I also have reached a modicum of hope that I might actually hit a target with my Rogers & Spencer. Why don't you switch the discussion to the pronunciation of Zouave. N-SSAers say ZOO-AHVE (two sylables). Mr. Webster says ZWAAVE --->(only one sylable)

[John Holland]

Ron/McGregor's wrote:
"Ok I am going to put fourth another question. If Zovaes were not issued then why are they allowed for NSSA competition?"

Imagine that! Mr. John Gross, who I have communicated with personally and have a great deal of respect for, actually found the answer to the question by simply reading the N-SSA's online rules! John is a very talented researcher, but come on folks....wouldn't you want to read your own rules of competition?

OK, back to the "Zouave".

JDH

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

Gee, John, Why would anybody want to do anything like that?! Then we might actually be well informed! What a novel idea. (He said, tongue firmly in cheek)

[Southron Sr.]

I have seen pictures of an original Remington made "Zouave" converted to a ROLLING BLOCK!

It looks that they simply sawed off the stock in front of the lock plate, sawed off the bolster end of the barrel and then threaded the barrel to fit into a Rolling Block receiver.

The sawed off Zouave butt stock fits on to the other end of the RB reciever. All in all a "Neat" conversion.

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Remington created what was called a Transformed Model by altering rifle muskets and turning them into Rolling Block Rifles chambered for the .58 Berdan cartridge. Most common were ones done using .58 Caliber U.S. Rifle Muskets but some have been noted using the "Zouave", the M-1841 Mississippi Rifles and .577 cal. Enfields also although these are very rare. It looks like these were made right up into the late 1880's with a contract for 400 Transformed Rifles going to the Dominican Republic in November of 1888. The new book on Rolling Blocks by George Layman is a wealth of info.


Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

[R. McAuley 3014V]

About 20 years ago, when Mr. Norm Flayderman still offered a print catalog, he had a military document in one of them which, by the wording, date, and context, lead Mr. F to believe it gave proof of issuance of the Zouave rifle. From what I remember, the wording of this document was something like "Our NEW Remington rifles with sword bayonet have been received," and was dated either 1863 or 64.

For something a little more substantial, on page 116 of The U.S. Model 1861 Springfield Rifle-Musket by Hartzler, Yantz, and Whisker, is pictured a Zouave rifle with bayonet, and the following caption.

"This unfired Remington [Zouave] rifle was brought home from the war by a Brightbill from Bedford, Pennsylvania. He paid $6.00 for the rifle and $2.00 more for the bayonet, upon discharge in Cumberland, Maryland. Dr. James B. Whisker Collection."

John Gross

As Paul Harvey would often say: And here's the rest of the story!

James B. Whisker quote: My "Zouave" was owned by a physician who stayed to care for Yankee wounded for about 6 months after the war ended. He bought it in Cumberland, MD, altho he had never carried it, for $8 plus $4 for the sabre bayonet.

http://www.antiqueguns.com/phorum/read. ... 4#msg-7924 (http://www.antiqueguns.com/phorum/read.php?6,7919,7924#msg-7924)

[tkavanagh]

1) Back when I was a kid, oh so long ago, in the early 1960s, I had just started to go to skirmishes with Frank Hayes and Jack Perrine, although I was not yet old enough to shoot. One of my neighbors in Rockville was a heart surgeon at the National Heart Institute. As such, he was paid a salary rather than patient fees, although he could accept gifts from "gratefull patients."

He had, over his fireplace, a musket. One day, I asked if I could take a look at it. It was a Zouave, with which I had become familiar at skirmishes, I turned it over, looking for familiar markings, and was somewhat surprised that the words "Black Powder Only" were not stamped on the left breech. It was then that I realized that it was, in fact, an original, from one of those grateful patients. He recounted how he had received it in a wooden crate and had to clean off the copious amounts of grease on it.

I have lost track of them in the half-century since, and don't know what became of them, or it.

2) As for why they are now allowed in the N-SSA: it is my understanding that when the N-SSA really got going in the 1960s, the Zouave was pretty much the only repop available. When the "issued arms" rules were later promulgated, so many skirmishers had them that they were 'grandfathered' in.

tk
2883V
Wheat's Tigers

[GSusat]

Granted this is someone elses research but I will toss it out there as food for thought. To me if 10,000 were delivered and still in storage in 1866 - that seems to kill the idea they were issued. And the whole - loess one being sold to Bannerman in 1901 is also interesting. Granted Remington could have made more and sold on the commercial market. Food for Thought

An August 1862 contract called for delivery of 10,000 rifles, and after the Holt Commission investigations, that contract was cancelled after 7,500 had already been delivered. Another contract was signed in December 1863 for 2,500 more to permit full delivery of the original number, not for a total of 12,500 as some authors have erroneously stated. Records confirm that 10,000 of these rifles were delivered to Watervliet Arsenal between April 18, 1863 and January 8, 1864 at a cost of $17.00 each. Inexplicably, all 10,000 were still there in May of 1866 and none were ever issued to troops during the Civil War. Finally the entire lot (less 1) were sold to Francis Bannerman in 1901 for 54 cents each, with the brass handled sword bayonets.

[John Holland]

The Remington 1863 Rifle is NOT "grandfathered in". Re-read the previous post by John Gross that cites the N-SSA's Rules.

JDH

[Chris Sweeney]

Remington had 4 major long gun contracts with the government during the late unpleasantness:
The first (5/31/61) was to add sword bayonets and bayonet lugs to 5ooo Mississippi rifles. 3268 were delivered; the remainder were sent to a different contractor for angular bayonets when sword bayonets became unavailable.

7/30/61: Remington was contracted to supply 10000 "Harper's Ferry Pattern" rifles and bayonets. This contract was cancelled, then reissued on 8/11/62. 7501 rifles were ultimately produced.

A 3rd contract, for 2500 rifles of the Harper's Ferry pattern was issued 12/13/83 and delivered on 1/8/64. Many of the guns in this contract were considered 2nd class arms.
Having nothing much to do with Zouaves, Remington's last, and largest, CW long gun contract was for 40,000 1863 Springfield Pattern rifle-muskets. This was the only arms contract that was allowed to continue after cessation of hostilities. Deliveries continued until March of 1866.

These figures are from various reports by Roy Marcot, the author of the official Remington Company history.

[DAVE FRANCE]

I worked for a French company (Renault) in the US for a couple years while they made cars in this country. One of the men I worked with told me he had a rifle he purchased in Europe. It was a Zouave.

This doesn't add much to the discussion but I thought it was interesting.

David

[DAVE FRANCE]

I worked for a French company (Renault) in the US for a couple years while they made cars in this country. One of the men I worked with told me he had a rifle he purchased in Europe. It was a Zouave.

This doesn't add much to the discussion but I thought it was interesting.

David

[Blair]

During the period from 1861 to 1865 U S Army Ordnance lets several contracts to Remington.
Some of these have no products delivered during the periods of the contracts and will be rewritten and issued.
Among these will be what we now call the Remington "Zouave" contracts as well as the various contracts let for producing the Springfield patterns of 1861 RM and the 1863's (This last of which will extend into post war 1866).
These various contracts should not be mixed up and/or confused one from the other. This includes culminating references from all available sources.
Reading comprehension and cross referencing is an absolute must when it comes to doing this kind of research.
Blair

[le piaf]

Hello ,
In 1870 the french government bought in emergency ,tons of guns , especially coming from your civil war .
Zouave, gallagher , Rolling Block , Spingfield Mle 61 and 63 and colt's contract , etc etc , the whole collection , with bayonets and ammos.
The difficulties to fit the right ammo or the right bayonet to the right gun made that theses guns were not issued in totality , and if bannerman bought and give back to USA theses weapons , a nice quantity stay in France for the great happiness of collectors and reenactors.
20 years ago we have found in one of our navy warehouse , two great wood boxes , and in each , 6 Springfield Mle 61 like new ...... and there is another sleeping boxes waiting to be opened. Green

[Eggman]

Sac le bleu!!

[DAVE FRANCE]

Merci mon vieux!

David

[Don Dixon]

There is an interesting book on the sales of arms by the Federal government and various honorable arms merchants (scum sucking gun runners) to the French during the Franco-Prussian War. The book is entitled Les Armes Americaines de la Defense Nationale 1870-1871, by Pierre Lorain. It's in French, naturally.

According to Lorain, the French were sold the following:

Springfield rifle muskets, 1855-63, in .58 caliber,282,731
Remington rifles in .44 Egyptian, 149,957
Remington conversions in .58 Remington, 63,033
Spencer repeaters, 44,772
Peabodys in .433 Spanish, 34,530
Allin conversions in 50/70, 25,281
Remington carbines in .52 Spencer, 21,117
Peabody conversions in .58 Peabody, 16,056
Berdan rifles in .433 Spanish, 11,188
Remington rifles (caliber unspecified), 9,202
Sharps carbines in .52 caliber, 7,334
Joslyn carbines in 56/50 Spencer, 6,600
Lindner conversions (caliber unspecified), 5,999
Winchester repeaters (1866) in .44 Winchester, 4,406
Remington rifles in .433 Spanish, 3,700
Warner carbines, 2,500
Gallager carbines adapted to Spencer cartridges, 2,500
Berdan conversions in .58 Remington, 2,491
Sharps carbines converted to 50/70, 1,275
TOTAL 711,612

Additonally there were odd lots consisting of:

Roberts conversions in .58 Peabody
Remington conversions in .58 Remington, .433 Spanish, and 50/70
Smith carbines
Model 1860 Colt Armys
Model 1851 Colt Navys
Remington revolvers
Starr revolvers

So, you can see where a lot of surplus arms went after the "unpleasantness." The sales occurred at a time when the organized state militias were armed with largely obsolete equipment. Half of the organized militia of Wisconsin, for example, held Muster 1844 or Muster 1849 Austro-Hungarian Army Kammerbushce (Garibaldis).

The Prussians, on the other hand, received no arms from America, but had the services of Phil Sheridan as a "military observer."

Regards,
Don Dixon

[John Holland]

Mr. Dixon -

Thank you for the most interesting insight on the disposal of so many of our obsolete arms after the Civil War.

John Holland

[Southron Sr.]

I am familiar with a Zouave that was converted to a Rolling Block.

The original rifle was sawed off right behind and before the lock. The rear end of the stock was attached to the rear of the RB action. The sawed off Zouave barrel was threaded and screwed into the front of the RB action and of course, the wooden forestock, barrel bands, ramrod and nose cap was used.

[RaiderANV]

Sac le bleu!!

If'n ya do,,,,,,you'll clean it up!

[RickI]

When I started in the N-SSA in 1974 there weren't many choices of muskets to use let alone uniform sources. At 18 yrs old I could buy a Zouave, Mississippi or maybe an Enfield. I could not afford an original. I bought my Zouave for $90 and then started Skirmishing with what I could get that was close to a uniform. Don't forget about the first repro Springfield from Japan in the late 70's. It was the U.S. Spingfield. Thats right, the forgot the "r" in Springfield and the stock was a two-piece of who-knows-what wood. Things sure have changed since then and we have many fine choices and I have some nice originals as well. I still have that old Zouave and replaced that awful original wood from that Zoli with a $250 walnut stock from Dunlap, just sent the lock to Doug Turnbull to have it case hardened the right way ($125) and have the barrel all polished and I will be rust-blueing it this weekend. Why spend that on a $90 old Zoli Zouave? What the heck. She was my first. Who can forget about his first one? Right? Besides, She is worth it and still shoots better than I do.

[Southron Sr.]

Obviously, the German Army captured a lot of the Civil War Surplus arms we sold the French.

Bill Edwards told me that the Germans sold a lot of the American arms they captured to the Turkish government at bargain basement prices. That being said, I don't think there has been any serious scholarship on what happened to the arms we shipped the French and were captured by the Germans.

Anyone know of any French or German works on the subject?

Inquiring minds would like to know!

THANKS!!!

[John Holland]

Southron -

That's a good question. Bucky Malson told me that at the first International Muzzleloading Competition the entire German team in the Military Match showed up with new condition original Remington Model 1863 Rifles! When asked where they came from the only answer was "We've had these for a long time." Bucky suspected they had been in hiding somewhere in Germany since the Franco-Prussian War.

Bannerman and the U.S. Government sold thousands of arms to France during the build up prior to the Franco-Prussian War. I thought I had read somewhere, once upon a time, that after the war Bannerman had bought back a lot of the arms originally sold to France. Unfortunately I don't know where to even to begin to look for that reference today. It is just one of those things stuck in the dusty corners of my brain, right, or wrong!

JDH

[William H. Shuey]

when the U.S. Civil War errupted the armys of Europe cleaned out their arsenals of old weapons and unloaded them on us. So 10 years later we do the same to them.
Bill Shuey

:D

[Southron Sr.]

Dear Dispatch

Many Re-enactment organizers BAN Zouaves because there is no credible evidence that they even fired one shot in anger during the Civil War. The records extant indicate that when Remington delivered the "Zouaves" to the U.S. Army Ordnance Department, the army immediately stuck them in warehouses where they remained until sold in surplus auctions 30 or 40 years later. Another reason is that Re-enactors generally consider arms with 33 inch barrels to be something of a safety hazard when used for firing in ranks as Re-enactors do at events, especially when someone in the rear ranks uses a Zouave.

John:

What Did the Germans do with the American arms they captured from the French?

I guess the answer to that would be somewhere in the German Archives. Whether or not those archives survived World War II is another question. They were probably located in Berlin and between the Allied Bombing of Berlin in World War II and the "on the ground destruction" the Russians did when they showed up in town in 1945, there is a chance none of those records even survive today.

Funny things happen to Archives...

A few years back I spent a lot of time in the Georgia State Archives researching the Georgia Armory Rifle. What is frustrating is that, here and there in the archives are "missing papers." What happened to them? Seems back in the early 1900's the state archives were located in the basement of the state capitol building which was heated by a furnace system located in the basement.

On cold mornings, the janitor would arrive early and build a fire in the coal furnace using some old, dry papers from the archives to light the fire in the furnace!!! That way, the janitor did not have to go to the trouble of bringing old newspapers from home to use to light the furnace!

It wasn't until the 1930's and Roosevelt's "New Deal" that WPA workers showed up in the state archives to classify and sort thru the state's old archives. Those WPA workers did a fabulous job with the state's archives and I have often wondered IF the state would even have any archives if it weren't for what the WPA did preserving those documents.

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

Oh... ok. But tell me this, I am considering getting a carbine for an Artillerist impression. It's mostly for gun guard duty but maybe 'occasionally' for some side line firing when we simulate being over run, as a few gunners and sergents use revolvers for this purpose...... what would be a fitting musket for a Confederate Artillerist in this situation?

I would say that in the vast majority of cases no carbines or longarms were carried by Confederate artillery units. In fact sidearms were not even that prevalent, except among the officers and perhaps NCO's. The "Red Legs" used their rammers, sponges, hand-spikes and fists in defending their guns when defending their guns from being overrun.

Phil

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

Dispatch,

I was referring to batteries that were on the field on active service. Perhaps you are talking about the Heavy Artillery batteries that were in forts around Washington?

I would think that in the heat of battle an artilleryman's greatest source of defense would be to serve his gun.


From the Artillerist Manual, by BG John Gibbon

“Artillery cannot defend itself when hard pressed, and should always be sustained by either infantry or cavalry. The proposition made to arm the cannoneers with small-arms, such as revolvers, short rifles, &c., is calculated to do more harm than good. They should be taught to look upon their pieces as their proper arm of defense, to be abandoned only at the very last moment. The fate of many a battle has turned upon the delivery of a few rounds of grape or canister at short range upon an advancing column; and if they have the means, how natural for men to resort to them for personal safety in time of extreme danger, forgetting for the moment that the fate of the whole army, may be imperiled whilst they are defending themselves only! Let the rifles, therefore, be given to the infantry, and the sabres and revolvers to the cavalry; guard the artillery with these arms, and teach them that their salvation is in sticking to their pieces.”


http://books.google.com/books?id=ZaEtAAAAYAAJ&dq="battery wagon" intitle%3Amanual&lr&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=1860&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=1866&as_brr=1&pg=PP3#v=onepage&q="battery wagon" intitle:manual&f=false

[Dispatch]

------------

[le piaf]

If it is sure for lots of Chassepot converted to 11mm Mauser , the greatest part of CW weapons were not issued to french army and stayed in our port out of reach of prussian hands .
After the war , the french government organize and prepare the revenge ( WW1:() in the schools (AKA "bataillons scolaires armed with reduced model of our musket Mle74)and in each village or town with milicia and firebrigades armed with chassepot and french tabatiéres and ........... several models of CW weapons ) , all theses weapons make happy french shooters and collectors .
We found easily from 1920 to 1970 , lots of Springfields , Enfields and theirs conversions,less easily spencers, gallaghers, remingtons RB or Winchester......... but no one remington Zouave , it sems that if the other guns were issued to Armée de Loire , the Zouaves stays in their box .
In the seventies , Zouaves appears in Europe in Mint condition , it is said by the old timers that this miracle is not prussian but belgian .
Belgium with these african colonies was a great weapon dealer and need old weapon with low cost to sale to his natives (they keep also fabrication of old weapons but it was more expansive).

Perhaps prussian have captured Zouave but certainly not in great quantities and with a little piece of chance to survive to WW1 and WW2

[Dispatch]

------------

[Edwin Flint]

First: The Zouave is generally a very good weapon. Even most reproductions are good. The only one I know of which had a problem were the few that had braised bolsters years ago. Early 60's I believe, but they pop up every once in awhile. The originals were considered by some to be the best of Muzzleloaded firearms.

Second: I am researching a Confederate artillery unit right now and one of the recruiting points was that standing guard was not required as the Infantry would stand post for them. This was one of several such Benefits of being an artillery volunteer. As such, they had many recruits that formerly were in infantry units. End result was instead of the one Company they started out to get, they recruited enough for three and became a Batallion instead!

[le piaf]

I am the proud owner of an original Zouave in mint condition , with a load of 54 gr of swiss N°2 and a lyman 580213 with a base PH sized to.579 , this rifle is able of a 1.5 MOA ragged hole at 100M (MLAIC competition ), it is very close of Rigby ,or Gibbs performance .
The enfied Mle 58 with his 5 progressive groove his perhaps better , but in my mind it is because the rear sight is more convenient for the old eyes and give best results at the range , but do you have seen lots of Mle 58 in mint condition ?;);)

[Dispatch]

------------

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

The Zouve reminds me of the Hawken rifle.

I have to ask, how and why?

Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

[Dispatch]

------------

[John Holland]

A 33" barrel is hardly "short", and an OAL of 49.25" is far from "stubby"! Banned at all events, not by a long shot! You must have the N-SSA confused with re-enactors. This is a live ammunition competitive shooting organization....where the 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave", is to be found on the firing line by the hundreds. It is an arm that was contracted for, and delivered, during the Civil War so it fits the required parameters for use in the N-SSA's competitive matches.

I understand why the re-enacting community only wants/allows Rifle Musket size arms for re-enactment purposes. They fire in ranks, we don't. They fire blanks, we don't. Unfortunately, by only allowing the use of Rifle Musket sized arms for re-enacting and living history events they turn a blind eye to representing the hundreds of thousands of soldiers, both North and South, who used an equal amount of 33" barreled arms. Such as the 1841 Rifle (Mississippi), 1855 Harper's Ferry Rifles, British P-56 Rifles, 1849 Kammerbusch (Garabaldi), Richmond Rifles, and a plethora of other Confederate Rifles....all with 33" barrels.

JDH

[le piaf]

In Europe , the musket was considered as a support for the bayonet , it explain the fact that infantry was issued with musket instead of rifle (6 inchs longer barrel can be helpful in emergency)and when we change a musket for a more recent model , the total length with the bayonet was always an important charateristic.
Statistics of the prussian war of 1870 shows that the great majority of KIA was by swords (bayonets, lance and saber )not by gun's bullets or artillery.

[John Holland]

le piaf -

You are correct, when Rifles were fitted with a bayonet they usually had to meet a minimum over all length to either match a musket with bayonet, or come close to it. The short version of the story is it all had to do with tactics and defending against Cavalry charges. The armies of Europe adopted the bayonet for Rifles long before the U.S. did, with a minor exception in the U.S. for the Hall Breechloading Rifle. Again, it was tactics and how Riflemen were deployed. Riflemen were flank troops, advanced skirmishers, and if you wish...shock troops. There was no need for a bayonet if your job was to harrass and keep the Infantry at bay from a much longer distance than the Infantry smoothbore musket's return fire was effective. The bayonet was a tool of massed Infantry and usually used for the intimidation effect. The U.S. only adopted the bayonet for the Rifle when they began copying European arms, ammunition, and tactics in the 1850's.

Tactics.....Boring!

JDH

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

A 33" barrel is hardly "short", and an OAL of 49.25" is far from "stubby"! Banned at all events, not by a long shot! You must have the N-SSA confused with re-enactors. This is a live ammunition competitive shooting organization....where the 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave", is to be found on the firing line by the hundreds. It is an arm that was contracted for, and delivered, during the Civil War so it fits the required parameters for use in the N-SSA's competitive matches.

I understand why the re-enacting community only wants/allows Rifle Musket size arms for re-enactment purposes. They fire in ranks, we don't. They fire blanks, we don't. Unfortunately, by only allowing the use of Rifle Musket sized arms for re-enacting and living history events they turn a blind eye to representing the hundreds of thousands of soldiers, both North and South, who used an equal amount of 33" barreled arms. Such as the 1841 Rifle (Mississippi), 1855 Harper's Ferry Rifles, British P-56 Rifles, 1849 Kammerbusch (Garabaldi), Richmond Rifles, and a plethora of other Confederate Rifles....all with 33" barrels.

JDH


John,

I always like to add that while re enactors go on about their authenticity and realism, although nobody bleeds or winds up at ambient temperature and there is very little horror or terror involved in their "authentic" version of war, we do with the period firearms what the troops during the war did with theirs. We try to stop the event a quickly as possible with rifle fire.

Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

[John Holland]

You're right Jim! There is nothing like the sound on the firing line of 500 muskets being live fired within 5 seconds of each other when the horn sounds for a National team event to begin at Winchester, VA.

For those who may not know, all the live fire sound for the movie "Gettysburg" was recorded at one of our National matches in Winchester. By having the recording equipment not only on the firing line, but also down range, they were able to record exactly what a massed Infantry sounds like when loading and firing live ammunition rapid fire, but also what a minie ball sounds like as it whistles through the air. One of the film crews I spoke with at the time were amazed at the difference in sound between live fire and blanks. And, that folks, is why all the musket firing in the movie was so good!

JDH

[Wagonrider]

Agreed that there is nothing like the firing line at nationals. All sorts of muskets,rifled muskets, rifles, carbines, revolvers and artillery. And all the variants. Nothing can come close to the smell and sounds of load and come to the ready and that first volley on a still morning. Authenticity abounds. Now wouldn't it be nice if there was as much effort put into researching and documenting uniforms . ( sorry I couldn't resist). :rolleyes:

[Blair]

OK, let us try this aspect on the other foot?
Not the one based on the many aspects of material culture within "all" of Military life of the 1860's but the one based on the primary tool of the solder. His weapon/firearm?
This topic is the most neglected aspect of "all" material cultural aspects/point within reenacting to date!
Let us talk about cleaning that primary tool of the solder on this BB or on one of the reenacter forums and see what one gets in return?
Just an idea/thought?
Blair

[Muley Gil]

"Now wouldn't it be nice if there was as much effort put into researching and documenting uniforms . ( sorry I couldn't resist). :rolleyes:"

You know, if every unit started small, we could upgrade our uniforms over time. Say, start with a pair of period trousers and braces (suspenders). Then upgrade the jacket. Spread out over a few years, the cost wouldn't be that bad.

Oops, did I kick over the hornet's nest? :D

[Mike McDaniel]

OK, let us try this aspect on the other foot?
Not the one based on the many aspects of material culture within "all" of Military life of the 1860's but the one based on the primary tool of the solder. His weapon/firearm?
This topic is the most neglected aspect of "all" material cultural aspects/point within reenacting to date!
Let us talk about cleaning that primary tool of the solder on this BB or on one of the reenacter forums and see what one gets in return?
Just an idea/thought?
Blair


Why, you clean thoroughly, of course. :D

The only real debate among Skirmishers is the cleaner to use. I like Simple Green. Murphy's Oil Soap is liked by others. Ballistol will work in a pinch (I like it better as a post-cleaning oil). And the perennial question of whether or not to remove the barrel to clean it.

[Dispatch]

------------

[Steve Weems]

When I joined the NSSA back in the 80's there was a rumor that a regiment of the ANV surrendered "Remington Rifles" at Appomattox.
The Remingtons were assumed ( or hoped) to be the Model 1863 Remingtons and proof that they were issued.
I do not know the source of this nor do I know if the make and model of weapons received are in a ordnance report somewhere.

A gentleman who was researching the 7th Mississippi Infantry told me there was a document that listed the surrendered weapons*
by make and model for that Regiment but did not share that document with me. That Regiment was surrendered in North Carolina*
in April 1865. If so maybe the same type of report exists for the surrender at Appomattox.

[John Holland]

The rifles surrendered were Model 1841 Mississippi Rifles made by Remington.
JDH

[Southron Sr.]

Ironically, the Georgia Armory Rifles made at the state penitentiary in Milledgeville, GA (the then state capitol of Georgia) are virtually identical to the Remington Zouave Rifles with the following exceptions:

1. The Georgia Armory Rifles used flat brass barrel bands rather than the rounded brass barrel bands as found on the Remington Zouave.

2. The Georgia Armory Rifles used brass, Enfield style trigger guards.

Another irony?

There are very few surviving Georgia Armory Rifles today because all were issued to Georgia soldiers and used in combat. The Remington Zouaves ended up being stored in warehouses and "never fired a shot in anger."

Last but not least, the Georgia Armory Rifles went out of production in 1863 so the armory could be converted into a Cotton Card factory! The idea being that the sale of cotton cards would help relieve the state's war debt and at the same time, provide a means so the ladies of Georgia could provide clothing for their families and men in the armies.

[Steve Weems]

The rifles surrendered were Model 1841 Mississippi Rifles made by Remington.
JDH

John---
Thanks for clearing that old one up and putting it to rest --maybe one day I will be able to run down the weapons*
of the 7th Mississippi as I had many relatives in it--several even made it to the surrender!

[le piaf]

Pedersoli is a bit over the others and his catalog is most complete with a great choice

[Blair]

le piaf,

Just my opinion, but I too believe you are correct.
DP also has a great interest the details of fit and finish of various arms, as well in target shooting results from their finished products.
This makes for a hard-to-beat compination in any type of firearm.
Blair

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Sorry to make this thread any longer, but this seemed the most appropriate place for this. In "Guns of the Civil War" 2011 (ISBN 978-0-7603-3971-8), on pp.162-163, are photos of 2 1863 Remington Zouaves which author Dennis Adler (apparently mistakenly) says were "issued to a number of Union regiments" and were "favored by the U.S. Zouaves and is popularly pictured with Zouave units."

[John Holland]

Ken -

You can make the thread as long as you want, it doesn't matter. But, I sure would like to see one of those "...popularly pictured..." photos! The author didn't show you any.....did he?

JDH

[Blair]

John,

And, I would like to add, if he does, it will be of either the M-1841's with saber/sword bayonet alterations or the M-1855 "Rifles"

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Adler has a stero photo of some Zouaves, but of course the image is too small to I.D. their arms!

[Southron Sr.]

It was Val Forgett, the founder and owner of Navy Arms that began the replica firearms industry back in the late 1950's. The Late Mr. Forgett needs to be given credit for his foresight and his business acumen because we all owe him a lot. Skirmishing wouldn't even exist as it does today without a plentiful supply of replica firearms and we can Thank Mr. Forgett for that fact.

Because the original 1863 Remington Rifles were never issued, they were sold in "mint" condition by Bannerman's and other surplus dealers fairly cheaply in the early 20th Centory. The original Remington's quickly developed a reputation for being very accurate, consequently, Skirmishers in the 1950's and 1960's used original Remingtons and were very pleased with them. It was probably because of the stellar reputation of the original Remington rifles that Mr. Forgett decided to reproduce it.

Mr. Forgett risked his own money to put the replica Remington's back into production in Italy. The Navy Arms replica Remington was the FIRST replica Civil War long arm produced and sold. As part of the advertising campaign, Mr. Forgett gave his replica Remington rifles the nickname of "Zouave." [Obviously he couldn't call them "Remington Rifles" because Remington Arms Companies name is copywrighted by Remington. The "Zouave" nick name stuck and proved to be a very good marketing tool.

Look at it logically, if NO original Remington ["Zouave"] rifles were ever issued by the Ordnance Department then NO Zouave units could have carried such arms!!!!

As for "Gun Writers" you have to take some of them "with a grain of salt." I read a write up of a replica Pedersoli New Model 1959 Sharps Carbine a year or so back. The carbine was missing the CHAMBER SLEEVE! The "gun writer" who shot it and wrote the article on the carbine didn't know enough to know the chamber sleeve was missing!!!! He actually speculated as to WHY the chamber was so BIG!!!! [I was temped to roll on the floor laughing after reading that article!]

That being said, we have several Gun Writers that are N-SSA members that are very knowledgeable when it comes to original and replica firearms. These are the "Gun Writers" you can Trust.