Reproduction Rifle Muskets, Out of the Box

[Bob Riley]

Greetings to all.

I am interested in getting a C.S. Richmond rifle musket for live fire. I am not affiliated with a N-SSA unit at this time, so unit requirements should have no bearing on this particular choice of equipment. I understand that there are some custom builders out there, but at this point I'm considering one of the mass-produced imports.

I was advised by a knowledgeable skirmisher, a while back, that the Armi Sport version may be a more historically accurate choice, but the Euroarms model might be more durable and a better shooter. Any thoughts on this?

One other thing that interests me is the action and trigger. At least a couple of sutlers/firearms dealers have gunsmithing services, and I asked about about getting a rifle musket with a trigger job done. One has no Richmonds in stock, the other did not reply. Do you folks find that the Italian reproductions are generally ready to go out of the box, or do they really need to be "tweaked" by a knowledgeable gunsmith to make 'em more fun to shoot?

Your responses and opinions will be much appreciated.

Bob Riley

[pastore]

Regardless of the manufacturer of the rifle, chances are very high that the piece will need some work on the trigger to achieve any sort of accuracy.

[matt]

bob,
where are you located? S&S should be able to get you a richmond. At the least this is what i do with my muskets. i whack off the front sight and install a higher front sight silver soldered on, then i glass bed the musket, the breech area, and before and aft of the barrel bands, then i silver solder a piece of brass to the full cock notch on the tumbler and file down the brass to achieve about a 4 pound trigger pull any lighter and i find i start to have problems with the half cock notch.
Matt
winslow's battery 9775v

[Bob Riley]

Thanks for the replies. I expect I will try to get one "gunsmithed" at the time it is ordered.

So, are the Euroarms and Armi Sport versions pretty much equivalent in quality?

Matt, I live in Florida. I'm sorry my user information did not show that, but I went in and updated my profile.

Brent, AKA Bob Riley

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Thanks for the replies. I expect I will try to get one "gunsmithed" at the time it is ordered.

So, are the Euroarms and Armi Sport versions pretty much equivalent in quality?
I own both a Euroarms 1863 C.S. Richmond and Armisport 1862 C.S. Richmond (as well as one of the Armisport Model 1855 (Type I) rifle muskets), and the difference in quality is not all cut and dry. Both products have evolved since they were first imported with the most notable changes being done by the Armisport product, namely some changes intended to prevent counterfeiting (i.e. artificially aging a replica to pass off as an original CW era musket). Certainly to the uninitiated or novice, either replica might be passed off for an original with very little changes, and some unscrupulous individuals have antiqued such replicas and succeeded in passing them off to unsuspecting buyers. So you have to be careful.

I bought one of the first Armisport C.S. Richmond muskets to be imported, and being unhappy with the thin lock plate, I bought one of the custom reproduction locks by Nick Brevoort, along with one of his iron patchboxes and then inletted the new parts into the production Armisport musket. Among the changes implemented by Armisport over the years, was to offer a “real” brass buttplate and nosecap in lieu of their earlier “brass-plated” steel hardware like was featured on my musket, which I promptly removed when I converted the musket into a iron-mounted Model 1855 (Type III) rifle musket. Only latterly did I change the lock out to convert it into a 1862 C.S. Richmond (Type I) before submitting it for inspection and obtaining a SAC card for it.

As one custom maker Blair Taylor can attest, the conversion I executed is not possible today because of the many changes in the product intended to prevent this from being done. Such a conversion is still possible with the Euroarms product, though the production lock plate by Euroarms is noticeably thicker than the Armisport, and is also of a correct shape whereas the Armisport lock plate is a poor attempt at authenticity. The barrel bands on the Euroarms Richmond are very much the same as their replica Model 1861, but these are also noticeably a heavier gauge metal thickness than the Armisport, which are almost three-quarters the same thickness and are the same used on their earlier Model 1861 Springfield. Really, all Armisport and Euroarms did in producing their versions of the C.S. Richmond was to "doctor up" their Model 1861 Springfield replicas. Both have Model 1861 Springfield barrels with cone shield, a feature not found on original Model 1855 or C.S. Richmond muskets.

Although the Armisport is touted by some to have the more accurate rifling, the rate of twist of the Armisport is 1:66 (or in metric 1:1660-mm) whereas the Euroarms Richmond is 1:72, the same twist as the original Model 1855 rifle musket. When S&S decided to convert some of the replica Richmond rifle muskets into 1863 C.S. Richmond carbines, it wasn’t the Armisport product they chose to use, but it was the Euroarms product, and I bought one of those carbines which I now shoot in preference to my Smith Carbine breechloader because it is the more accurate of the two. While some prefer the faster twist of the Armisport, a faster twist rifling requires a heavier projectile to keep it from “tripping over the rifling,” whereas with a slower twist, like the 1:72, lighter design projectiles tend to perform best.

Stock-wise, both have oversized stocks, and if you want one with the correct contours and weight, you should either buy an original musket or buy one of the production muskets that has been modified by having the stocks recountoured to their original contours, such as like Blair and others sell as well as offer as part of their customization services. Or you can buy the "off-the-shelf" standard production guns and do all the modifications yourself and save a few bob in the license (as they say).

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Suggest you look into James River Armory at:

http://www.jamesriverarmory.com.

They have some Italian imports that are "Skirmish Ready". I have never owned one or worked on one but supposedly they have a lot of the work done. They are rifled by Bob Hoyt, a very good custom barrel maker. They are Altered to make them N-SSA approved and more historically accurate. They have the Richmond rifles and rifle muskets you are interested in purchasing.

I see you live in N. Fl. If you don't mind, where? Our team has 3 members in Spanish Fort/Mobile area of AL. They might be close enough to get together with sometime.

I Suggest you plan a visit up to one of the Deep South Skirmishes in Brierfield AL. Might find a team you want to hook up with and get other questions answered.

[mikea]

Bob-
A team mate of mine bought a James River Armory rifle and it is much better than the stock Italian repros. They are pretty much skirmish ready out of the box. Ed Flint is giving you good advice to look into getting a gun from them. For the money you can't beat it. If you want further work done contact Blair Taylor, who in in Melbourne, FL, and does excelllent work.
If you are in the panhandle take Ed up on the offer to contact his team members - I'm sure they would be happy to help you. If you are in the Jacksonville area there are some of us in the Savannah area. There are a few more of us scattered around FL - I'm in Clearwater. Just let us know where you are if you want help.

[Southron Sr.]

I agree with Mikea about James River Armory rifles, get a "Skirmish Ready" one and you will be pleased.

[surveyor47]

James River Armory buys Italian guns with unrifled barrel blanks, which are rifled by Mr. Bob Hoyte. The guns also have a dovetailed high front sight blank, which Mr. Hoyte aligns for windage. This is a very important feature, because many factory guns come with front sights that are too low to even print on a 50 yard target. The high front sight blank is intended to be filed down for an exact point of impact.

The guns that have the easiest sights to adjust of all, at least in my limited experience, are the Parker Hale Enfields. Their front sights can be replaced at minimal cost by Mr. Hoyte and filed down. The Enfield military rear sight should NOT be altered. It has steps that allow the shooter to quickly slide the sight forward and rear, setting the sight for 50 or 100 yards. I was able to "dial in" my Parker Hale Musketoon in my first year of skirmishing and it is still my most accurate gun. Parker Hale Enfields are known for accuracy and mine lives up to its reputation.

With the exception of Parker Hale Enfield guns, I believe that a factory Italian musket is a false economy, given the time, effort and expense required to get these guns "to shoot". Skirmish grade guns are usually capable of accuracy that I have found simply amazing. It is a false economy to buy a gun that is not as capable a shooter as you are. It is better to buy a gun that will reward your increasing skills with better accuracy and higher scores.

I highly recommend the James River Armory guns and I believe that most new musket shooters will find the Enfield models to be the easiest to "dial in".

I have learned at every single skirmish I have attended. I learned hugely even the first time I saw my future team shooting practice. I would attend a skirmish before purchase. I promise that it will greatly alter your perception of the rifled musket that you want.

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

Surveyor,
You assume that anyone can shoot an Enfield. I cannot due to the high straight comb. I just cannot "get down" on the sights. Please remember that at the time of the war, that the british stile of shooting was much different than here in this country.
I do agree that the Italian repros all need sight and trigger work, however I have shot several with factory barrels that were extremely accurate.
Yes, the James River is probably the overall best shooter "out of the box" by far.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Surveyor,
You assume that anyone can shoot an Enfield. I cannot due to the high straight comb. I just cannot "get down" on the sights. Please remember that at the time of the war, that the british stile of shooting was much different than here in this country.
Greg,
When you establish your stock weld, how far from the comb is your cheek? If you will try this, move your cheek farther back (maybe 2 inches or so), because the stock falls more rapidly towards the rear of the stock. It takes a little getting used to but if you are consistent with the placement of your stock weld farther back on the stock, it not only allows you to better align the sights vertically, it also reduces the field of view in the rear sight vee notch, and tightens up your aim. You and I are about the same size and I've shot Enfields for nearly 30 years. But try this and see if it doesn't alleviate that problem. You should have no problem using either a 6 o'clock sight picture or a 12 o'clock one, and you don't have to change the way you shoot all the time, only when shooting an Enfield. I shoot my '55 the same way.

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

Enfield Muskets are designed to shoot off the bicep not along the shoulder collarbone area. That is most of our issues with shooting them.

[surveyor47]

I shot skeet for many years before skirmishing. Getting my cheek down on the stock of an Enfield is as natural to me as shooting a Remington 870. So long as an Enfield "fits you", the way a good shotgun fits you, you should have no problem whatsoever. To me, the Enfield is an extremely accurate rifled shotgun, shooting hollow based slugs. I bet the stock evolved from smoothbores and there was no accident to it at all.

[surveyor47]

It took me 4 years to dial in my Fayetteville, lots of time and effort working on the rear sight. I am only beginning to reap the rewards of my efforts with that gun.

My Parker Hale Enfield Musketoon was "dialed in" within the first few months of ownership. I believe that mine will shoot about anything short of a rock, so long as it is sized 0.577" in diameter. It does have its quirks, particularly sun angle on the front sight, which occasionally throws me off. It either shoots exactly dead on or 2 inches to the right, just enough to kill my individual scores. When everything is right, I can put 5 shots into 1 jagged hole at 100 yards- standing on the skirmish line as we require- no slings-no scope. Only problem is that sometimes those 5 shots are in 1 hole in the 8 ring and group size doesnt make a winning score. X Ring hits are what makes winners.

These guns are quirky enough without requiring readjustment after work is done on them. Its like starting all over again with a new gun. Why not just start from scratch with a gun that "is right"?