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Wshifflett
11-17-2008, 03:04 AM
I'm in Ohio for the winter and they don't allow rifles for deer hunting here. So how accurate is a Italian Enfield musketoon? Am I better off with smokless powder or will my black powder work? How much of it? I think they're .58 cal not .577 so what size bullet should I use? Is it going to tear my arm off or will it be like a 12Ga? Thanks!

Jim Strang
11-17-2008, 05:56 AM
Am I better off with smokless powder or will my black powder work?

NEVER use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader!! NEVER!

With Ohio's deer-gun season two weeks away, this is a heckuva time to be getting familiar with what your post indicates is to you a totally unknown firearm, but here's the short course:

1. The musketoon is an excellent Ohio woods deer gun.

2. Use 50 to 60 grains of BLACK powder under a properly sized and lubed minie ball. Most of the Italian musketoons go about .577, so size your bullets to .576 or .575. Use the lube of your choice. If you're not familiar with the various lube alternatives, enter that word in this board's search engine and prepare for an education.

3. For the sake of the deer you hope to kill and the practice of hunting, put some minies through the piece BEFORE you go to the woods. You need to know where the sights will deliver your shot out to 75 yards or so. That will take a few practice rounds. These guns are highly individualistic about loads, grouping, etc.

4. Fear not for your shoulder. The recoil is about that of a stiff 20-ga. load, nowhere near a heavy 12-bore.

In all candor, if you know as little about shooting a musketoon as your post indicates, you're far better off with a slug-shooting shotgun here in the Big Buckeye. Shotguns work for about 250,000 meat-hanging Ohioans each season. and they require much less getting-used-to and other pre-season preparation -- not to mention post-shooting cleaning and maintenance.

And please! NEVER mention "smokeless powder" and muzzleloading shooting in the same sentence again? It scares the bejeezus out of some of us.

Thanks, and good luck.

Wshifflett
11-17-2008, 06:05 PM
Jim,
Thanks for the info. I'm new to Ohio from Virginia so I've always used cartridge rifle. I mentioned smokless because I know modern black powder rifles use it but since it's a no-no thats just one less thing I need to go out and buy. Do you currently use one for deer? Have a source for a couple dozen minie's?


Thanks.

Norm Gibson, 4901V
11-17-2008, 07:07 PM
Wshifflett, I think that you may be confusing the black powder substitutes with smokeless.

Jim Strang
11-17-2008, 07:22 PM
Yeah. Don't know where in Ohio you are, but the Log Cabin Shop near Lodi has everything you could need. Web site is:

http://www.logcabinonline.com/

They sell minies by the bag, Bore Butter lube by the tube, caps and powder. If you're close enough (and Ohio ain't THAT big), their shop/museum is well worth the trip. Great collection of Ohio and Pennsylvania rifles.

If you're way down in the Southeast or up in the Northwest, Cabela's might have most of what you need, but I don't think they deal minies.

Wshifflett
11-17-2008, 08:44 PM
Yea I'm probably mixed up on the powder. But the barrell is marked .58 so will the .577 bullets they sell work fine?

Jim Strang
11-17-2008, 10:08 PM
Probably, for your purpose. They usually run a tad undersize. Lube 'em up and push 'em down.

Muley Gil
11-18-2008, 09:20 PM
"I'm new to Ohio from Virginia..."

I'm sorry. Did you do sumthin' bad to get sent to Ohio? :D

Wshifflett
11-19-2008, 02:26 AM
Na but it sure is a big change. I hope to be back by spring.

Death006
11-19-2008, 04:38 PM
DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER!
Also another piece of advice. If this is a buddies reproduction musket and he uses it for reenacting, do not shoot a single live round out of it. Pieces of lead can get left behind in the barrel and when it is used for blank firing at a reenacting event, things can go bad.


For propellant you'll want to stick with Goex. You may have a difficult time finding it, but if you ask around sooner or later you'll find a gun store owner who carries it.
I have tried Pyrodex, which is a blackpowder substitute in the past, but I know that the NSSA does not authorize its use. It will fire but I do seem to recall having a number of failure to fire because the caps would not set off the powder charge.

The combat load of the time period was 60 grains of black powder along with a 500 grain minie ball. I've done my best to attempt to replicate this load and it is fairly accurate out to 100 yards. At 50 yards if you do your part (sight alignment, trigger control, breathing so forth) you should be able to land your shot. Recoil is very mild with the full size 1861 Armi Sport.
There are so many variable to consider as well. Too hard a lead and the minie ball skirt will not engage the rifling. An easy way to see this is when your bullets go into the paper target sideways. You'll also need to get the diameter of your barrel sized. It may be marked .58 caliber, but the actual diameter will differ. In order to get the most accuracy you'll need to run the minie balls through a sizer after you cast them.
These were made as combat arms, and undersized, LUBED, minie balls could be easily loaded quickly, even when the weapon was heavily fouled with residue.

These old muskets (and reproductions) really are a hobbyist's pursuit. To get the most out of it you'll need a decent bullet mold, lead melter, a bullet sizer, and a source of pure lead. You'll need to do some reading about how to prepare and make your own bullets. Then you will need to work on a good load that your musketoon likes.
I would not recommend grabbing a box of pre-made minie balls and a can of blackpowder, some musket caps and "go hunting". Read into this, research it, and you'll enjoy it much more!

-Burke Schneider

Edwin Flint, 8427
11-19-2008, 07:53 PM
It sounds like this is a temporary thing and that you will not be doing this long term.

I know this is not pc for our board, but have you thought of trying patched round ball rather than going with minie's. This would solve quite a few of your problems. No need to track down proper sized Minies, no lead left behind if it is a re-enactor gun, no worry about hard lead, etc.

A bit slower loading but you should receive acceptable accuracy to 100 yards fairly easily. I would start with about 40-50 grains of either 3Fg or 45-55 grains of 2Fg. A readily available .570 round ball with a pre-lubed .010 to .012 patch.

I have taught the 4H Field and Stream muzzleloaders in this area for several years. Since the nationals contests usually deny us the use of minies, I had to come up with a way to have them in compliance. This was what I taught them and they consistentily were hitting 6-8" targets out to 100 yards, no trouble.

Ken Hansgen, 11094
11-20-2008, 05:11 PM
I've even seen plastic sabots for shooting round balls out of .58 ca. rifles. Bought some, about 15 years ago.

tonyb
11-20-2008, 07:41 PM
SMOKELESS!!!!..........(faints, hits floor hard)

matt
11-20-2008, 08:51 PM
do not use the sabots for the round ball. you will bulge your barrell as the ball will roll forward and create an obstruction. not good for the gun and maynot be good for the shooter

Ken Hansgen, 11094
11-20-2008, 10:35 PM
I never shot with those sabots, and now I guess I never will. Just used them for corks when I made up blanks in some load tubes.

Southron Sr.
11-21-2008, 05:43 PM
A couple of years ago here in Georgia we had a would be deer hunter load some SMOKELESS POWDER in a repro muzzleloader, laid it across the hood of his truck to "sight it in" for deer season with several others watching on.

If I recall the accident report correctly, the shooter was killed when some of the shrapnel from the exploding barrel entered his brain and an onlooker was severely injured by more of the same.

Oh Yeah! Someone in the group told one of the accident investigators that he couldn't understand what happened, seems that the color of that smokeless powder was "black!"

So shooting smokeless powder in a muzzleloader converts it into an instant GRENADE!

Norm Gibson, 4901V
11-21-2008, 08:51 PM
A good reason never to snap a cap on an unknown load. I pulled an unknown load from a musket, and found that it was made up of a dis-assembled modern shotgun shell.