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ead
12-23-2010, 05:05 PM
I have read that there are those of you that roll the ball on a farriers rasp to dimple the ball but I've never heard it clearly explained exactly what this does. So, these are my questions.

1. Does this provide a tighter fit for an undersized ball without the trouble of using a patch?
2. Do the dimples serve as tiny reservoirs for lube?
3. Do the dimples somehow provide stability to an imperfect ball?
4.Does anyone out there truely understand what it does and why?
5.Does putting it in a standard paper cartridge eliminate the benefits of doing it?
6.Is the rough or finer side of the rasp used?
7.Is the preferable lube for this one that only becomes liquid upon ignition of the powder?
8.What lubes are used?
9.How many shots can be fired before fouling becomes unbearable?

I have a Potsdam that doesn't shoot worth a Potsdamn and would appreciate some advise! :x

DAVE FRANCE
12-23-2010, 07:06 PM
Hello EAD,

I can't answer any of your questions, but I have read somewhere that dimpling the golf ball makes it have less drag thus helping to extend the range of the ball. That might be one reason to dimple a round ball.

David

efritz
12-23-2010, 08:41 PM
I once investigated and talked personally to a respected mould making company about having them make me a round ball mould with dimples in it like a golf ball. I was willing to pay the freight on such tooling amd manufacturing if it had merit. In short I was told the dimpling only works on golf balls because of the speed of the ball. Kind of slow compared to a projectile with 80 grs. of powder behind it. Therefore the endevor ended. Now logically speaking it will make the ball larger and provide lube adhesion when put between two rasps.

There seems to be 3 different opinions out there in shooter land. One is ram a round ball with some lube on it down the pipe. Two, take a perfectly round ball, roll it around between two rasps, throw some lube on it, ram it down the pipe. Three, take that nice round ball, rasp it or not, lube it and wrap it in tin foil, ram it down that same pipe. The answer lies with the people that are winning. What do they do? My guess is 5% know what they're doing and do it well. Another 5% do well by getting lucky on some days and then have problems on others. 25% do ok, not so lucky very often. The rest are filling the air with lead and hopfully at least having a good time doing it. Again hopfully 100% are having fun.

I myself have have tried two methods with degrees of success. With a model 1842 I used as perfect a round ball as I could make and as close to bore size as possible. Either dipped the ball in lube or insert the ball in the precharge tube and place melted lube on top of the ball taking as much as possible, (a cookie). On another smoothbore (sighted) I use a round ball dipped in Alox but the ball is approx. .012 undersized. The 1842 would begin fouling around the 8th shot. The sighted gun lasts a bit longer but this is because of the difference of sizes.

Suggestion. Talk to the winners. But remember, they're not only doing things right, they're good shooters too.

R. McAuley 3014V
12-23-2010, 09:30 PM
Likewise, I cannot supply an answer as to exactly why some are using this technique over some other technique except to say, wrapping round balls in aluminum foil before “thrice” dipping them serves to provide a means of physically holding onto the ball so to dip it in a melted or liquid lube and build-up a lubricant coating around the ball, which dimpling or roughing the ball surface accomplishes much the same goal but with less labor. Roughening the surface before covering with a lubricant serves to create frictive forces in the surface tension in much the same manner as is achieved by “stugging” the surface of a brick wall with a pointed chisel that is intended to receive a coat of plaster or stucco, or roughing the surface of plaster or stucco between coats for the next coating to adhere. Roughening the surface of round balls similarly provides the lube with a prepared surface in which to adhere, plain and simple.

Greg Ogdan, 11444
12-24-2010, 08:29 AM
Well, my unit seems to do pretty well with the smoothie, and we do a little bit of everything. And just for the record, the results this past nationals did involve some luck on the part of our B squad.

John Holland
12-24-2010, 11:22 AM
ead -

Here are your questions, and my answers to them...right, wrong, or indifferent!

1. Does this provide a tighter fit for an undersized ball without the trouble of using a patch?
1 – Yes.

2. Do the dimples serve as tiny reservoirs for lube?
2 – Not enough to matter

3. Do the dimples somehow provide stability to an imperfect ball?
3 – No.

4.Does anyone out there truly understand what it does and why?
4 – I use it to increase the diameter of the ball up to bore size. The round ball I use in my Potsdam casts at 0.715. By “rasping” it the diameter increases to .720 and the ball will just sit at the muzzle.

5.Does putting it in a standard paper cartridge eliminate the benefits of doing it?
5 – No.

6.Is the rough or finer side of the rasp used?
6 – I use 2 coarse Bastard files. When I’m done the ball sort of resembles a small Horse Chestnut.

7.Is the preferable lube for this one that only becomes liquid upon ignition of the powder?
7 – The answer to this one is so subjective you have to try them yourself to see what works for you. Personally I use plain old Crisco globbed up on top of the ball. I’ve eaten so much Crisco in my years of skirmishing that it’s kind of just like the inside of a Twinkie to me now ! ! !

8.What lubes are used?
8 – A search through this page will provide you with most all of the combinations that are used.

9.How many shots can be fired before fouling becomes unbearable?
9 – I have fired as many as 25 rounds without wiping the bore. The large amount of Crisco that I use keeps the fouling very soft...and gooey.

And one you didn't ask.
10 – Tinfoil – I have also used a less than bore diameter ball wrapped in tinfoil, with Crisco applied the same way, with success. The tinfoil seals the bore when the charge goes off, the ball shoves the Crisco out ahead of it, and the tinfoil scrapes the bore clean on the way out. I have fired over 50 rounds without wiping the bore using this method.

Just my experiences.

JDH

Chris Sweeney
12-24-2010, 12:35 PM
JH

. . . which brings up a question - given the prohibition of "multipart ammo,"

I've had several people tell me you can't shoot tinfoil, you can't shoot revolver with wads, kapok ain't a legal filler etc. etc. etc. One line judge told me he would disqualify the team if I used lubed wads in my revolver

So what does the depitty regional IG say as the final word for all that?

CS

John Holland
12-24-2010, 12:40 PM
He says "MERRY CHRISTMAS" to you too ! ! ! Followed by a "Raspberry!" and http://www.n-ssa.org/NATIONAL/RULES/RulesAug2010.pdf

JH
National Inspector General Corps

jerry ashley
12-24-2010, 02:12 PM
Now John it is Christmas, just think of that fat man in the red suit bringing you a bib batch of Habbersett scrapple for being good, good, good once more GOOD, have a great one.

ead
12-24-2010, 02:47 PM
Dear Members,
I just want to thank you all for helping me out with my smoothbore confusion. I don't think I got all the tips but thanks to you I know a heck of a lot more than I did.

Best regards and Merry Christmas,
Eric

Francis J. Miller Jr, 02601
12-24-2010, 02:55 PM
Chris,

To answer your questions, here are the rules pertaining to revolver and smoothbore ammunition, I have highlighted in Bold print, the particular areas you question.

SECTION 17: SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION
17.1 AMMUNITION, GENERAL
Ammunition shall consist of a lead or lead alloy projectile and a pre-measured
charge of black powder. Projectiles may be coated with a lubricant, and hollow
bases may be filled with lubricant. Carbine I and II, revolver, and breechloading
rifle ammunition may include non-explosive, non-metallic filler, such as Cream
of Wheat or wads. Except for Carbine II and breechloading rifles, all
ammunition must be externally primed. Breechloading cartridge arms shall use a
cartridge casing of appropriate material as an integral part of the cartridge.
Restrictions may be placed on the size or shape of a projectile, and it must
approximate the weight of projectiles normally intended for use in the arm being
fired.

17.1.1 SMOOTHBORE PROJECTILES
Projectiles for smoothbore matches shall be round ball only. In a smoothbore
firearm, the ball may be wrapped with aluminum foil, with or without grease;but the use of patches, paper or cloth, or over-powder wads or plastic wads is
prohibited.

And none of these paricular rules were changed in the 2010 August summary listed below.

Summary of August 2010 Rule and Policy changes
These changes are incorporated in the texts of the Skirmish Rules and the Board Policies, which are posted in the Information section of the N-SSA website (N-SSA.org).
1. Rule 2.9 was amended to refer to a new policy which defines the procedure for assigning member organizations to host national skirmishes, and for assessing whether an organization’s performance fulfills their obligation to “participate fully”.
2. Rules 5.4c, 6.4c, 7.4c, 8.4c, and 9.4c were amended to require that pot silhouettes be hung with the wide end down.
3. Rule 13.8 was added to incorporate into the rules the fees charged to hold regional skirmishes at Fort Shenandoah.
4. Rules 18.8.1 and 18.9.1 were amended to prohibit the competitor from pushing against the rear of the hammer in order to improve the trigger pull and half-cock set during inspections.
5. Policy 2010.3 was adopted to regulate night-time artillery events.
7. Policy 2010.4 was adopted to regulate the awarding of donations and grants by the Board of Directors.

So, in closing I would say the answer is Yes, you are permitted (allowed) by the offical N-SSA rules posted herein, to use the materials you were told you cannot use by other individuals who probably need a refresher by reading the rules again. They are not hard to find, it is in the Information section of the N-SSA website.

Hope this helps and answers your questions. Have a Merry Christmas & A Happy New Year.

John Holland
12-24-2010, 05:41 PM
Before anyone thinks I was unnecessarily RUDE to Chris Sweeney....he's on my team, I've known him since we were in our youth....some 45+ years ago....and he's one of my very dear friends.

JH

hp gregory, 9128
12-28-2010, 08:24 AM
here is what works for the 17th. we think the purpose of rolling the ball is to get the perfect fit for each barrel. its realy hard to find a perfect size mold so you have to use an undersize ball and roll the ball on files to expand its diam. i have some old cut off sections of barrel from macon conversions. i use 2inch sections as a gauge to see how the ball will fit in the barrel. i dont use them as a sizer but meerly as a gauge. i have tried both coarse and fine files and dont see a lot of differance in how they affect groups. but you have to keep in mind that each gun may want something a little differant. we have found that a looser fit is better than to tight. we use liquid allox for lube. just a dab will do. a thin coat is better than to much. we use 3f swiss because its hot and it burns realy clean. swiss is hot stuff. we shoot no more than 45 grns. but you should work your loads up very slowly and carefuly. particularly in orignals. the idea with the swiss and allox is that theres nothing but dust left after the shot. i gota say that a lot of the early research was done by a very nice gentleman down in texas. PA LAKE was the one who offerd up his ideas on rolling the ball and using allox. his ideas still get the job done. this info is what works for us and its a good chance it will give you a good start if you are just startin out. if you still have trouble you may want to seek the help of a witchy woman. have her cast a spell on your barrel. it may just help.

hp gregory

Greg Ogdan, 11444
12-28-2010, 08:47 AM
HP,
You know a witchy woman?! Send her to me please. That's the only way I'm ever going to get competitive on paper targets.

Mike Rouch 07791
12-28-2010, 09:04 AM
Several of us on our team do about the same except we rattle about 50 balls in a 1# coffee can at a time for about 30 seconds. It's alot quicker & still gain a couple thousands in the diameter. I myself use 3F goex 52gr. One thin coat of alox. I'm also shooting .010 under size ball. I guess I'm getting lazy in my old age.


Mike

Mike Rouch 07791
12-28-2010, 09:05 AM
Greg, get bigger paper.................




Mike

Greg Ogdan, 11444
12-29-2010, 09:58 AM
Da*n, I never thought of that!

Bob Huntoon
12-30-2010, 08:07 PM
For the smoothbore shooters --

What is the DEAL with those who swear by hard lead round balls?

Maybe it is me, but that just flies in the face of the idea of OBTURATION - filling the bore to get the best accuracy. i.e the bore actually guides the bullet to the target.

Bob

R. McAuley 3014V
12-31-2010, 12:34 AM
OBTURATION, Bob?? You by any chance shooting some "flat-bottomed" or "hollow-based" round balls. Obturation is the plastic deformation of a cast bullet alloy due to the force of the expanding gas on the bullet's base, and is typically applicable to flat-base or hollow-base projectiles, not round balls. I realise you may be using pure lead round balls, but not even a pure lead round ball are so soft as to deform and seal tight against the inside of the bore.

Bob Huntoon
12-31-2010, 10:17 AM
Matter of opinion I guess, With some of the huge loads I have seen fired, a soft lead ball would most likely have some effect upon it.

I Don't have a ballistics lab to prove or disprove the point.

What term would you use for the effect of powder gasses behind the ball and the resistance/compression of air ahead of the bullet round or otherwise?

Have always thought the guys using huge loads of 2fg or even 1fg powder were merely providing a black powder sabot behind the ball - as not all the powder would be consumed in the barrel. Don't know as I would try thisa in anything except a new or relined bore.

I have seen shooters beat the be jeezus out of the ball with their ramrod in order to get it to fill the bore.

Rasping balls is supposed to help with filling the bore - with whatever little barrel contact that will give upon ignition.

My question is - what possible benefit does a hard wheel weight type alloy round ball give you in a smoothbore?

I have heard folks claim it as the way to go, but no further explanation.

I know for sure that shooting balls in the original manner - way under bore size only reinforces the statement made by US Grant that any soldier hit by a smoothbore musket ball beyond 100 (or was it 200?) yards was just plain "unlucky."

Digger

John Holland
12-31-2010, 10:54 AM
Bob -

I'm not sure about Gen. Grant's statement on how "unlucky" a soldier might have been. Yes, the ball was only about .64/.65 caliber, but as I recall, after tearing the cartridge open and dumping the powder, didn't they ram what was left of the entire cartridge down the bore? I'm pretty sure that would effectively seal the bore and make the ball much more accurate than we are led to believe. Again, another experiment I've yet to try. It would be an interesting bit of military experimental archaeology!

I am given to understand that some of the Deep South skirmishes have tried a 100 yard smoothbore team event with no small amount of success using 18" square plaster board. And, NO! I don't advocate adding it to the National matches! My schedule is so tight now, I can hardly squeeze in time for a slider!

JDH

Wayne Shaw, 1985V
12-31-2010, 12:26 PM
John At the past Halloween Skirmish At the Fort we shot tiles at 100 yards.
I think they were 12" and they were a blast. Several teams did real well some not so good but I never thought that It would be that much fun. My old Potsdam suprised me,and that don't take much anymore anyhow. As far as hard lead vs soft personal choice here. I have found several balls in the berm at Ft Ross and the hard ones are so good that I think yopu could wash and reshoot. The soft ones are definatly flatened out and show a defined wear band on the sides. So imho the soft ones do crush during the process. Can't say if this happens during loading or fireing but it does happen. Smoothbores are such a chalange. Wayne Shaw Harlan's Light Cav 1985V

Bob Huntoon
12-31-2010, 02:36 PM
Wayne,

Thanks for adding to the discussion with the important observation of FIRED round balls.

100 yard smoothbore will just go to show how much better today's skirmishers are with all of our tech and practice compared to the"Original Users" who were lucky to shoot 10 rounds (loaded muskets were discharged "at a mark" at the end of each guard rotation in camp) before being in battle with folks shooting back. Seems I remember a story of a veteran sergeant from a newly arrived Ohio regiment showing the boys how to load on the firing line in the Battle of Shiloh! Bet they were smoothbores too!

Might I be so bold as to "guess" that the HARD balls do not show much in the way of bore contact?

BTW - Happy New Year to all!

Digger

Ken Hansgen, 11094
12-31-2010, 02:49 PM
That quotation of Grant's was in his memoirs. He said (and I'm quoting him from memory), "At a range of 200 yards, a man with a smoothbore musket could fire at you all day without you finding it out." Of course he was exaggerating. I'm truely impressed, even intimidated, by today's N-SSA shooters!

Greg Ogdan, 11444
12-31-2010, 05:11 PM
Hard lead=range salvage=cheaper,what can I say?!

John Holland
12-31-2010, 10:11 PM
Greg -

Is that why Mike told you to "...get bigger paper." ? ? ?

Happy New Year my friend!

JDH

R. McAuley 3014V
12-31-2010, 10:31 PM
That quotation of Grant's was in his memoirs. He said (and I'm quoting him from memory), "At a range of 200 yards, a man with a smoothbore musket could fire at you all day without you finding it out." Of course he was exaggerating. I'm truely impressed, even intimidated, by today's N-SSA shooters!

Obviously, Grant had a very different opinion of the accuracy of musketry than General Sedgwick. Sedgwick didn’t quite get the full sentence: "they can hit an elephant at this distance" out of his mouth before a musket ball cleaved his skull. And I'm not certain that they ever did determine whether it was a round ball or conical. Didn't much matter to Sedgwick anyhow. Kind of a mute point from his perspective.

Francis J. Miller Jr, 02601
12-31-2010, 11:30 PM
[quote="Ken Hansgen, 11094":15ka33lv]That quotation of Grant's was in his memoirs. He said (and I'm quoting him from memory), "At a range of 200 yards, a man with a smoothbore musket could fire at you all day without you finding it out." Of course he was exaggerating. I'm truely impressed, even intimidated, by today's N-SSA shooters!

Obviously, Grant had a very different opinion of the accuracy of musketry than General Sedgwick. Sedgwick didn’t quite get the full sentence: "they can hit an elephant at this distance" out of his mouth before a musket ball cleaved his skull. And I'm not certain that they ever did determine whether it was a round ball or conical. Didn't much matter to Sedgwick anyhow. Kind of a mute point from his perspective.[/quote:15ka33lv]

Richard,

From what I remember reading about Gen. Sedgwick at Spottsylvania, he was most likely killed by a confederate sharpshooter armed with a small caliber British Whitworth w/telescope & globe sights at a distance estimated at a little over 1/2 of a mile (between 800-900 yds). In reading your post, I was inspired in finding that information, and here are two links associated with the death of Gen. Sedgwick and the man who wrote his wife claiming to have shot him, and what he shot him with. An interesting read, enjoy.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/sedgwickdeath.htm

http://www.sedgwick.org/na/families/rob ... m1841.html (http://www.sedgwick.org/na/families/robert1613/B/2/9/2/powell-benjaminm1841.html)

danajhanson
01-01-2011, 11:52 PM
I am also new at this smoothbore thing...I have been following this thread with great intrest. But just to be clear...do I understand correctly that a cast round ball (soft or hard lead) should be .01 under sized for the bore? I just bought a Armisport 1842 smoothbore and do not own a bullet mold. Any suggestion as to what kind of mold to get and what size it should be?

DJH

hp gregory, 9128
01-02-2011, 01:34 PM
from what i have been told the reason behind a slightly loose ball being better than one to tight is that the ball is centered in the bore by the cushion of gas surrounding it. this goes against what i had always thought a good shooting load would be. however i have proven this to myself time after time. load the ball to tight and you get a lot of flyers. load the ball in a nice slide fit so that the weight of the ramrod takes it down the barrel and the smoothys i have shot seem to do much better. i think this would explain why a hard ball may be better. if a loose fit is truly better you would not want the ball to upset so that it fits the barrel tighter. so a hard lead would be more likely to keep the ball in the same condition throughout the firing process. but this is meerly my experiance with the devils gun. they also get called a lot of other names but none of them would be appropriate to repeat here.

hp

ead
01-03-2011, 01:45 AM
Hp,
It makes sense that the gases escaping around the ball might have a tendency to center it in the bore, however with an unpatched ball it seems possible that if the sprue or flat spot on the ball caused by the sprue cutter on the mould was allowed to be positioned on the side instead of centered would probably affect accuracy. You would have to load the ball carefully (Or it at least seems so!) to center the sprue when loading, or use swedged ball with no sprue. But, for all I know the escaping powder gases on a loose fitting ball might center the sprue too! I thank you for bringing this up because it clears up a question for me that's been in my head for a long time. I know a woman that shoots a 20 gauge .60 cal. flintlock smoothbore in the Fur Trade Matches that I sometimes attend. She shoots an unpatched ball and often outshoots the rifle shooters. I couldn't understand how it was possible and wrote it off as just plain luck, but it happens far too often. I always thought that a loose fitting ball just rattled down the barrel. Now I know that this is not always true.

hp gregory, 9128
01-03-2011, 09:30 AM
you are absolutely correct in thinking the sprue would cause problems. the sprue affect is just another reason for knurling the ball. in my opinion the more round a ball is the better it will shoot. i have always been told that the one thing that affects accuracey the most is the muzzel crown of a barrel. as the bullet leaves the barrel if the crown is not true the gas will leak on one side causing the bullet or ball to get an uneven push. of course some will say as long as its the same each time it wont matter. i think with a smoothbore everything matters but the quality of your ammo is most important of all.

hp

ead
01-09-2011, 12:06 AM
HP, Gregory,
I believe you're totally correct. If you don't start out with a relatively perfect crown or concentric exit for the
projectile you're handicapping yourself from the start. If the gasses at the muzzle don't escape evenly they
will deflect the projectile in a random and undesirable direction!

Jim Brady Knap's Battery
01-09-2011, 11:09 AM
"...the ball is centered in the bore by the cushion of gas surrounding it...."

I pulled this from a post by HP and it brought to mind an item I remember seeing in an artillery manual but I forget whether it was Gibbons or the one by a commision but they had it figured out just where in the bore of smoothbore cannon to look for wear spots, and there were several, caused by the iron ball, hard, bounding down the bore. This was with the 1/40th of bore diameter ball/bore windage factor they took as acceptable. Seems to me that whether it's a 20 inch Rodman or a smoothbore pistol the principle should be the same.

I have done my best with a close fitting soft ball thrice dipped in a soft beeswax, Crisco, olive oil lube which is heavy on the oilve oil. If I have a bad day on the line I can always spread it on a cracker for an appetizer in the evening. :o On Tricuts topped with an olive is nice with a nice properly chilled Mad Dog vintage. :) Try that with liquid alox or Mobile One! :shock:

My denarii worth

Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

ead
01-09-2011, 09:49 PM
Mr. Jim Brady,
Oh my God ! Now you've real opened a can of worms! :idea: Now I want to know if the U.S. or Confederate army did any studies or documentation on the accuracy of the 12 pdr. Napoleon. Thanks alot! Like it or not here comes a new thread!