PDA

View Full Version : Armisport Spencer Rifle



Hoot-3rd-Ga
11-14-2008, 07:38 PM
Gentlemen: I am trying to determine if the newest issue of the Armisport Spencer Rifle (the one without the sling swivel) has been approved for N-SSA competition by the SAC. I have looked at the approved arms list that was updated in June 2008 and it is not listed. Hoot - 3rd Ga

John Holland
11-14-2008, 10:07 PM
Neither ArmiSport Chiappa nor their importer, Taylor & Co., has contacted the N-SSA in regards to submitting their new version of the Spencer Rifle.

John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee

Two Flints
11-14-2008, 10:35 PM
Hi Hoot & John,

What specifically does the SAC need from either Armi Sport or Taylor's to get the modified Spencer Rifle approved for N-SSA?

Please can you let me know!

Two Flints
SSS Moderator

John Holland
11-14-2008, 10:50 PM
Two Flints,

The following is a "cut & paste" from the N-SSA's Rules:

14.7 APPROVAL OF REPRODUCTION PRODUCTS (amended January 2008)
NOTE: Reproduction items (hereafter called “products”) which require approval by the Board of Directors shall be:

(1) firearms (see Rule14.7.1)

Each product proposed for use in official skirmishes must be submitted to the Small Arms Committee. That committee shall examine each item submitted and make recommendations for consideration by the Board of Directors based on the best information available at the time. Only the Board may grant approval. If such products are to be produced in quantity, only pilot models need to be submitted. Such pilot models must be in all respects true representative specimens of the models to be approved. Deviations resulting in any product not so complying shall cause the product not to be used until it is re-approved. Reproduction replacement parts for use with original or approved reproduction arms need not be submitted individually for approval but are subject to challenge and inspection and may be disqualified for use in the event of non-compliance with rule 14.5. Samples of products offered for approval must be submitted to the Inspector General or to the Small Arms Committee at least six weeks before the January or August meetings or the meetings held at the Spring and Fall National Skirmishes. Product approval will be considered only at these meetings.

14.7.1 ARMS TO BE SUBMITTED FOR APPROVAL
The following arms must be submitted to the Small Arms Committee for consideration of approval. Production approval of reproduction arms, barrels and processes will occur only at Board of Directors meetings. All shipping costs for materials submitted to the Board must be paid by the manufacturer or distributor seeking approval. The N-SSA shall not assume any cost or liability for items submitted to the board for approval.

b. A prototype example of any reproduction of an original Civil War firearm being produced by any individual or commercial concern at a rate in which production shall exceed two such arms per year. The prototype shall be accompanied by duplicate copies of a detailed description and/or drawings of the configuration (including principle dimensions and tolerances) of the arms that shall be produced and sold for use in N-SSA competition if approved.

Sincerely
John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee

Two Flints
11-14-2008, 11:06 PM
Hi John,

Thanks so much for the quick reply.

Would you also please indicate the "changes" found on the "new" Armi Sport Spencer rifle that need to be voted on/approved by (the) SAC in order to gain acceptance for use by members of N-SSA.

Thanks,

Two Flints

Hoot-3rd-Ga
11-15-2008, 01:37 PM
John: I think a better question is..... to your knowledge "Was the former Armisport rifle submitted with the Armisport Spencer carbine(which was approved) or was it not available at that time for inspection? My memory of this is that the rifle didn't pass because it had the sling swivel which is not found on Spencer rifles. It also had in be in 56-50 chambering of course. I looked at an example of the current production rifle (the sling swivel is gone) and it appears to be correct.....dimensionally like the Romano rifle. I assume that since the internals are like the approved carbine(ie. extractor mechanism) , that it is not an issue. I am going to buy one and have it individually inspected in May or sooner. I feel like it will pass now. Please advise. Hoot - 3rd Ga

John Holland
11-15-2008, 03:54 PM
Two Flints, Hoot, et al -

The first version of the ArmiSport Spencer Rifle, which was 1/2 Carbine & 1/2 Rifle, was never submitted to the N-SSA for "Production Approval". One of their Jobbers contacted me unofficially for an opinion and showed me the example which was in his possession. I explained the Carbine/Rifle mixture of parts to him and told him that it wasn't acceptable in that configuration. At no time did ArmiSport, or Taylor's & Co., contact the Small Arms Committee about submitting an example for Production Approval.

I have not examined, nor even seen, the new version. Until the SAC has an example to examine, all opinions on my part would be entirely speculative.

I encountered a big problem with receiving the Spencer Carbine from Taylor's & Co. They would only ship through a licensed FFl Dealer because it is a center fire cartridge arm. I had to find a dealer in my area willing to receive the shipment. It cost me 60 miles in gasoline, 2 hours of driving time, plus toll road charges. AND another hour at the dealer's shop, because I had to go through an FBI/BATFE/NICS background check, and all the paperwork that goes with it, just to receive it from the dealer. Then he wouldn't permit it to leave his shop without a trigger lock, even though it was still sealed in the box! Quite frankly, I'm not jumping through those hoops again.

Small arms Production Appprovals are only given by the National Board of Directors at the four regularly scheduled Board meetings. The Small Arms Committee is the filtering process for the Board, and only gives their recommendations to the Board. The Board of Directors has the final say at all times.

Hoot, remember, a Regional SAC Inspector can give you a "Temporary Approval" which will permit you to use the arm in question, pending final review. So, bring your Spencer Rifle to Winchester in the Spring, and the SAC will be more than happy to see what they can do for you!

John Holland
SAC

Hoot-3rd-Ga
11-15-2008, 06:27 PM
John: Thank you so much for your well written, informative reply. It answered all my questions including ones about the process of SAC approval in this particular situation. I always thought that Taylor's was relatively close to Ft. Shenandoah so you would think it would be to their advantage to just bring one over for inspection instead of having you go through the hassle and red tape. I am willing to stick my neck out, buy one, (they are not cheap), have it inspected by the SAC in May and let the membership know which way it went. That way members won't have to wait on an official production approval process. It will have to be made clear that the former version (1/2 carbine-1/2 rifle) is not approved. Thanks again John! Hoot - 3rd Ga

B. Miller
11-16-2008, 11:34 PM
Hoot,
I know that you and the Third Georgia have done alot of work with the Armi Sport Spencer Carbine. I have tried several things new rear site, magnum primers, standard primers, cards between the bullet and powder, 2F, 3F, even Pinicle. I have not been able to get this thing to shoot an acceptable group and I mean from a bench. I think I remember you saying you had one of the venders on Suttlers Row do some work on them. I was wondering who I need to see and what they did.
Thanks in advance, I appreciate it. I would like to turn my tomato stake into a repeater.
Bruce

Hoot-3rd-Ga
11-17-2008, 10:15 PM
Bruce: Been there ....done that....and more. If the problem is universal , it's probably two fold. The chamber is too long and it's diameter is oversized. The rifling twist is too fast for the short bullets that are required to chamber the cartridge from the magazine. Final solution.......get Hoyt or Romano to reline the barrel to correct twist and dimension. It costs a little more but is well worth it. Hoot

Hoot-3rd-Ga
11-17-2008, 10:15 PM
Bruce: Been there ....done that....and more. If the problem is universal , it's probably two fold. The chamber is too long and it's diameter is oversized. The rifling twist is too fast for the short bullets that are required to chamber the cartridge from the magazine. Final solution.......get Hoyt or Romano to reline the barrel to correct twist and dimension. It costs a little more but is well worth it. Hoot

B. Miller
11-17-2008, 11:38 PM
Yeah, I noticed blowback from the chamber the first time I shot the thing. I get better accuracy from once fire brass as long as I don't size it. I do not have all the gages a lot of the other shooters seem to have to measure things but I played with it and nothing worked. If I get you right it will also need a chamber job alomg with the relining. I am ready to fork out the money for this.
Thanks for the help.
Bruce

Boge
11-18-2008, 12:12 AM
B. Miller, PM sent. :wink:

R. C. Hubbard Jr
11-18-2008, 02:28 PM
How fast is the twist as it comes from the factory?

Thanks
RCHJr.

Boge
11-18-2008, 07:27 PM
How fast is the twist as it comes from the factory?

Thanks
RCHJr.

1 in 20" approx. (it's metric). Originals were 1 in 48".