PDA

View Full Version : CONVERSION CYLINDER FOR 36 CALIBER REMINGTON REVOLVERS



DAVE FRANCE
12-10-2010, 12:46 PM
How do conversion cylinders to 38 special from percussion perform for the 36 caliber Remington revolvers sold by Uberti and Cimarron? I am surprised that a cartridge that uses .357 bullets can shoot well in a barrel that has a groove diameter of about .375. Does anyone have personal experience with this?


Thanks for any response!

David

William H. Shuey
12-10-2010, 03:29 PM
FWIW: I have seen such cylinders for .44 cal. but not .36. Are you sure they are made??

Bill Shuey

dml1296
12-10-2010, 07:50 PM
I have no personal experience, but I have read about them. For them to work you have to use hollow base bullets that will expand into the over size bore. Going from .357 to .375 is a lot of expansion. I don't know what kind of accuracy to expect.

DAVE FRANCE
12-10-2010, 08:20 PM
Thanks,

I'm sure they are made. They are listed on websites by Cimarron and by others.

The hollow base bullet requirement is a turn off for me. I asked one company about them and the person I talked to said they work well with no explanation.

Thanks again!

David

R. McAuley 3014V
12-10-2010, 09:18 PM
Uberti makes a Richardson-Mason conversion of the M1851 Navy Revolver in .38 Special that is imported by Cimarron. Since these new-made revolvers are manufactured as "conversions" the barrels are likely bored and rifled for .38 rather than the smaller .36 that would be the case had they converted a percussion revolver. But also, many of the original production 1872 Richardson-Mason conversions had new-made barrels.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,278.html

Now, I have one of the .38 S&W conversions by SWD, Inc. (Sylvia and Wayne Daniels of Smyrna, GA who were in business 1983-86, afterwards sold to Cobray) in a Model 1851 Colt repro (brass frame). Conversion worked very well, and because of the caliber and barrel length the report was almost like the revolver was "suppressed". Interestingly, SWD, Inc. was primarily engaged in the manufacture of Ingram M-11/9mm SMGs (full and semi-auto) along with silencers and suppressors.

Perhaps had SWD remained in business longer more of their conversion kits would have been made. The kit consisted of a new replacement 6-shot cylinder chambered for .38 S&W, and a steel backplate that had to be atatched to the frame with machined hex screws, so included both the three screws, a proper size drill bit, a bottom tap for the correct threads, and an Allen wrench to secure the screws, and further required the lower hammer face to be filed or ground back about 1/8-inch (without removing the sighting notch). Altogether, it took about an hour to install the conversion. There was an open loading port on the right-hand side like some of the early Colt conversions but without an swinging gate, and as it had no plunger to extract the spent cases, it was a little slow to reload. Unlike the current high-cost cylinder conversions, SWD sold their conversion kit for $40 each. With inflation what cost $40 in 1983 would cost about $85 in 2010.

Although its been more than 20 years since I last shot the revolver, I recall that it shot a respectable group at a social distance. However, because it was so much slower to reload than the handgun that I often carried then, I never bothered to carry it concealed. I carried a Ruger Redhawk in .44 Mag as my regular carry gun, especially when I was bounty-hunting. I never had to use it-- as it was intimidating enough just to be unhoisted-- even the police often remarked "God, what a hog leg!"

R. McAuley 3014V
12-13-2010, 10:51 AM
I have no personal experience, but I have read about them. For them to work you have to use hollow base bullets that will expand into the over size bore. Going from .357 to .375 is a lot of expansion. I don't know what kind of accuracy to expect.

If I'm not mistaken, don't you have that reversed? A Model 1851 Colt Navy revolver is nominally .36 (.357) and whether you use round ball or cartridge, the bullet diameter is .375 (nominally .38), so regardless, the bullet diameter is larger than the bore. There would be no need to use hollow-based bullets.

DAVE FRANCE
12-13-2010, 01:01 PM
Thanks for the information!

I have a 357 mag Ruger Vaquero revolver and the groove diameter is .357.

David

dml1296
12-13-2010, 02:30 PM
I have no personal experience, but I have read about them. For them to work you have to use hollow base bullets that will expand into the over size bore. Going from .357 to .375 is a lot of expansion. I don't know what kind of accuracy to expect.

If I'm not mistaken, don't you have that reversed? A Model 1851 Colt Navy revolver is nominally .36 (.357) and whether you use round ball or cartridge, the bullet diameter is .375 (nominally .38), so regardless, the bullet diameter is larger than the bore. There would be no need to use hollow-based bullets.


As I said, I have no personal experience with either the Colt Navy or the Remington, but everything I have read states that the bore diameter of these revolvers is .375, not .357. Maybe someone who has one could measure the bore and see what it actually is.

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/shopconte ... e=coltnavy (http://www.kirstkonverter.com/shopcontent.asp?type=coltnavy)

Ken Hansgen, 11094
12-13-2010, 04:15 PM
I'll bet that somebody somewhere the line has transposed 2 numbers and it's really .357, not .375. Go ahead -- mike it again -- you'll see that I'm right.

P.Altland
12-13-2010, 05:02 PM
Sorry, but the 36 cal. percussion is .375 in diameter. Despite its name, the .38 Special caliber is actually .357–.358 inches (9.0678 mm), with the ".38" referring to the approximate diameter of the loaded brass case. This came about because the original .38-caliber cartridge, the .38 Short Colt, was designed for use in converted .36-caliber cap-and-ball (muzzleloading) Navy revolvers, which had cylindrical firing chambers of approximately 0.374-inch (9.5 mm) diameter, requiring heeled bullets, the exposed portion of which was the same diameter as the cartridge case.

pastore
12-14-2010, 10:21 AM
I'll bet that somebody somewhere the line has transposed 2 numbers and it's really .357, not .375. Go ahead -- mike it again -- you'll see that I'm right.

Bore of the Uberti Remington Navy is: groove die .382, land dia .360, rifling depth .011, twist rate 1:18.

R. McAuley 3014V
12-14-2010, 05:26 PM
I stand corrected; both Paul and Fletcher are absolutely correct. Thirty-eight caliber "pistol" bullets vary between .354 to .357, while rifle bullets are truer .375 or at least as goes for RCBS bullets. It should have occurred to me that the bullet would have to be undersized to fit inside the case mouth provided the outside diameter of the case was .38 or even .375. As for a Model 1851 Navy, while I have used .375 round ball with moderate success in the past, even observing that in loading it would shave off a small ring of lead, given that it has a groove-to-groove depth of .382, clearly I need to be using a larger diameter ball, like .395 instead of .375! That may just well tighten up my group considerably. Or I can always throw rocks.

John Holland
12-15-2010, 09:57 AM
Richard -

If you are shaving off a ring of lead using a .375 ball which is undersize to begin with,then you will only shave off a larger ring of lead with a .395 ball and still be undersize. It would seem that your chambers are undersize from the required bore diameter of at least .382. I believe you need to have the chambers reamed out to the proper diameter. This is a common problem in reproduction percussion revolvers. This is where you get into "accurizing" a revolver, which will include not only reaming the chambers to the proper size, and in line with the bore, but also applying the proper angle to the forcing cone...which I'm told is 11 degrees.

Yes, I used to shoot revolver competitively, but I agree with Quigley when he said "I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it."

JDH

R. McAuley 3014V
12-15-2010, 11:44 PM
John,

Good news, the groove depth (diameter) of my Colt is 9.5-mm (0.374-in) and is has a land diameter of 9.14-mm (0.360-in), so perhaps those modifications may not be necessary. I had presumed the Uberti dimensions would be dependable for my Colt since Uberti is rumored to have made the Signature Series revolvers but I have just had a chance to check the bore dimensions and found that the .382 was thankfully NOT the groove diameter.

John Holland
12-16-2010, 12:33 AM
Richard -

Well.....That certainly explains the "moderate success" you have had with it!

John

R. McAuley 3014V
12-16-2010, 01:42 PM
John,

I would likely have more than "moderate success" if I spent more time on the range. But frankly, it a rare occurrence that I get any time off from work to get out to the range (for me it's about an hour's drive to the nearest range), such that like this past national (122nd), I had been to the range only once prior to the national since having shot in the two previous nationals (121th and 120th), with no practice in between those, and it had been some eighteen months before that since I had last shot at the 117th. The fact that I'm having even "moderate" success is truly nothing short of miraculous.

Rebel Dave
12-16-2010, 03:09 PM
Hello All

Here is some info on "conversions" .. kirstkonverter.com There is another place, here in Wisconsin that does conversions, in Beloit I believe, but I can,t find their site. You can also visit casscity.com go to the STORM site. lots of good C&B,Conversion, and open top info there.

I have 3 72 open tops that I love to shoot, one in 38spl, 71/2in bbl, two in 45colt, 71/2 and 51/2 in bbls. tho not conversions thay are fun to shoot. All three are Ubertis.
I have recently put on layaway, a 51 Navy R/M conversion, in 38spl, 51/2in bbl. It's a Cimmorron Uberti.

I only use black powder in all my old west type guns, it keeps it fun. I load my own. The 38 spls are .358 dia, and go from 140 to 145 grns weight. I use 21 grns of 3f, under a .030 card board card, spg lube,with a RNFP soft lead bullet. FP lets me shoot them in my 66&73 Wins also. This works for Me.

Rebel Dave aka Dave C.

Blair
12-20-2010, 08:55 AM
Dave,

To answer your original question,
The conversion 38 Special cylinder is available for the Remington 36 cal Revolvers. To get max potential accuracy from one of these revolvers, you would need to have the barrel lined/sleeved to accommodated the .357 dia. 38 Special. This would prevent you from being able to use the cap and ball cylinder due to its .375 dia., and it would no longer be considered a "convertible".
A hollow base .357 dia. bullet will help improve accuracy somewhat. But it is not recommended that you use smokeless powder. (even though the cylinders are proofed for smokeless) Smokeless creates too much presser and will blow out the hollow based bullet at the cylinder face/forcing cone of the bore.
Within the ranges of most Cowboy Action Shooting matches (10 to 15 feet) you should be able to hit most of the targets reasonably well with out having to sleeve the bore.

Your better option is to go with the .44 Remington Revolver with the .45 Colt cylinder conversion combo. You can keep it a true convertible and they shoot very well.

DAVE FRANCE
12-20-2010, 12:50 PM
Thanks,

I already have a 44 cal 58 Remington revolver and a conversion cylinder for that revolver. I have a 36 caliber 58 Remington also. I like that one very much also but I will just keep that as it is. I might buy a Remington Conversion 58. I think they are available in 44 or 38 special. It isn't much more expensive to buy a new pistol rather than buy a conversion cylinder.

Thanks again,

David