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thumper15
11-25-2010, 11:44 PM
Hello everyone,
I did some trading for a zouave the other day and since I don't know much about the zouaves I figured this would be a good place to get some help. The rifle is stamped Armi Jager Italy. Condition of the rifle looks new, but has been shot very little from the slight discoloration and scortching behind the nipple. What I got the rifle for is another big bore to do some hunting with. What I need help on is a good idea of loads either RB or conical that I can start with. I am probably not doing the twist rate check right cause I'm coming up with a 1-32" and I haven't found anything that mentions a twist faster than a 1-48 for a zouave. The way I checked twist was a snug patch on a rod marked to line with the front sight and run down bore till 1/2 turn was made. Measured the distance between marks and multiplied by 2. What conicals seem to work good out of a zouave? I know I can't push a conical too hard because of skirt deforming but am thinking 70gr FF goex would be a good starting point for either RB or conical. Any advice on loads and twist would be greatly appreciated.
After finding a post by a mwmoore on here it appears my zouave was made in 1976 it has the AB proof.

Lou Lou Lou
11-26-2010, 06:43 AM
70 Gr FFG is a bit much, considering the service load was 60 gr of FFg. The gun is designed for Minie balls, conicals with a base cavity allowing the skirt to expand into the rifling

thumper15
11-26-2010, 10:30 AM
yeah I've noticed the 70gr might be a tad much after seeing what some others are using on here.

Lou Lou Lou
11-26-2010, 10:49 AM
You need a minie 0.001 to 0.0015 under bore size. Experiment with loads from 40 to 60 gr in 5 gr increments. Take the one with the best group and try to refine the group by going up or down a couple of grains.

Southron Sr.
11-26-2010, 11:03 AM
The Zouave is designed for a conical bullet-not a round ball.

Suggest you start with a Lyman 575213 or similar mould.

1. Cast your bullets out of pure lead only! MInies cast out of hard lead do not expand sufficiently to grip the rifling and accuracy suffers.

2. A good investment would to get some plastic .58 cartridge tubes from a reputable sutler like The Winchester Sutler, Lodgewood, S & S Firearms, etc. They all have websites so you can Google them up. Cartridge tubes make FAST reloading a breeze, plus are much safer than using a powder flask or powder horn.

3. A load of 50 - 60 grains of FFFg Black Powder is more than sufficient for deer. Lube your Minies.

4. You might have to have a higher front sight installed on your Zouave, as they sometimes shoot very high using the original sights.

5. When loading ALWAYS have the muzzle pointed away from your body and use only two fingers on the ramrod.

GOOD LUCK-Please let us know how your hunts turn out!

Eggman
11-26-2010, 02:04 PM
I am not totally sure this is the ideal source for ideas about your Zouave in terms of loads, bullets etc. for hunting and such. Many states do not allow the minie for ML hunts so advice on such is non applicable in that case. My old Zoli Zouave was originally set up for hunting elk including moving the rear site a ways up the barrel (since moved back). The original owner used what is usually the standard round ball for a .58 barrel -- .575 --- with a thick pillow ticking patch, and with a good grease lube. The load should be determined by group, but your 70 grain idea isn't a bad place to start (because you'll need the extra muzzle velocity/foot pounds) for killing power. Also, once you're in the 70 grain range on up use ffg black powder, or Pyrodex RS only. I don't recommend letting your powder charge get beyond 90 grains for any game. And of course always make sure your ball or bullet is firmly seated on the powder before firing. Your friends in the NMLRA are the experts on round ball Zouave shooting.

John Holland
11-26-2010, 04:26 PM
From my years of long rifle shooting in the NMLRA, etc., the rate of twist in the "Zouave" of 1 turn in 72" isn't the best choice for patched round ball. It was specifically designed for a hollow base projectile. A friend and I experimented with it and found we had to really step up the powder charges to get an acceptable group with a patched round ball. At that point it was unpleasant to shoot. For one or two shots hunting it would be OK, but for a day at the range....no thanks!

Just my experience.

John Holland
NMLRA Life Member
NRA Benefactor Life Member

Southron Sr.
11-26-2010, 09:37 PM
HUH???? I have NEVER heard of Minie Balls being ILLEGAL for hunting in any state! IN what states are they illegal? Are the modern In-Lines with their saboted bullets illegal also?

For hunting, a Minie beats a round ball in MANY, MANY WAYS:

1. A Minie Ball weighs considerably more than a round ball-this gives the hunter a lot more "knock down power." I have shot a few deer with Minies and they usually go down like they were "hit by a freight train."

2. A round ball is a "horrible shape" speaking in terms of aerodynamics.i.e, it produces a lot of aerodynamic "drag" in flight. A Minie BAll is much more streamlined. This translates into further range, more energy retained downrange, etc.

For example, one can shoot Minies in target matches at 300, 500, 600, 800 and 1,000 yards-TRY THAT WITH A ROUND BALL!

3. I was at a public range one afternoon when a roundballer was in the process of reloading his Hawken. While he was struggling with powder horn, patch, ball seater, etc., I stepped up to the line and fired FIVE ROUNDS downrange in my repro M1855 Harpers Ferry using Minies in made up cartridges.

The roundballer was dumbfounded. He stopped reloading his Hawken and stared at me in disbelief: "Is that a muzzleloader?" "How can you fire so fast?" I showed him my rifle and cartridges and he was IMPRESSED.

Rifled-Muskets were DESIGNED to shoot Minies NOT ROUNDBALLS!

thumper15
11-27-2010, 12:01 AM
I was at the closest reenactment store from me today and looked at the minie's in .58 compared those to a RB. Given what I believe the twist to be I think I'll just try the different styles of minie's starting with the 213 OS minie. Still think for hunting if it'll shoot a minie accurately enough in the 70-85gr FF range then that's what I'll shoot. The only states I know that has regs against conicals are colorado ( something like has to be atleast a 50 and no more than a certain caliber length), and PA which used to be flintlock and RB only but that might have changed. I live in Missouri and it just has to be atleast a .40 caliber. A 1-60" to a 1-72" would be a RB twist not the other way around. I decided that my lyman trade .54 with it 1-48" would be a better rifle to shoot RB out of anyway so I picked some up. As far as my hunting I nailed a doe on the 13th with my trade .54 and a 390 GP conical at 50 yards and she never knew what hit her. It'll probably be deer season next year before I use the zouave on deer but when I do I'll report. Until then, when I get some range time with it I'll report what works. Thanks for all your help and advice guys.

Eggman
11-27-2010, 08:05 PM
Way way back in ancient times when the muzzle loading crowd was working for special hunting seasons for their arms, a primary rationale was the primitive nature of the arms we were using including the relatively low velocity, short range round ball -- in traditional arms. I am most familiar with Iowa which is one of the states where the special season(s) were gained based on this rationale. I am well aware of the in-line abortions, the sabot bullets and all the crap that followed which has possibly damaged our muzzle-loading sport beyond repair.

thumper15
11-27-2010, 09:41 PM
Eggman, I had an old knight inline and it was a really good rifle. However, the way I see inlines from a hunting stand point is it's no different than using a compound for bow season instead of a traditional bow. The compound you have sights, don't have to practice much, it's faster, and people take really long shots at game. An inline is the same, it's modernized enough people are familier with it, it shoots more powder so it'll shoot faster, put optics on it and you can try shots at 200yds so you don't have to be as good a hunter to get really close. People are always wanting the easy way out when it comes things, if it's faster and easier it's better. But, there's no challenge, no skill to get really close to game. I got away from compounds and took up traditional bows 10 years ago, and I enjoy the heck out of it. I have decided to do the same with rifle seasons here, hunt muzzleloader only starting this year. You become a better hunter by getting close and filling tags, not by trophy hunting and needing a 400yd shot to do it. For me I'm having fun using my .54 and hopefully the zouave.

Ken Eckard
11-27-2010, 10:50 PM
I believe I might have been the one who moved the sight forward on the one Zouave, If it has a brass blank where the old rear sight was and it was around Gettysburg I would say yes. As far as the load I worked up for hunting whitetail was this... 90 grains ffg, 562 ball with a 15thou lubed patch, yes I know they say the rifeling is not deep enough, but unless you try it dont knock it . It will drop a deer so fast at 125 yds and be so accurate.Then if you miss,wich is unikely you can back it up with a lyman 575213 minie and 70 grain ffg aim 1 ft higher and fire again but who needs it.

Eggman
11-29-2010, 11:54 AM
No the guy who owned the gun was Dave Ferguson from Spirit Lake, Iowa. He was a champion shooter in his day. He ran a metals parts factory and did all his own work. There's a good chance he might have stolen the idea from you though.

Ken Eckard
12-03-2010, 06:21 PM
Another funny thing, the gun I worked on belonged to Amoss Ferguson, who in turn hunted out there frequently,I worked on the gun around 96,97.
Ken

Hipshot
12-08-2010, 07:07 PM
If your looking for a minie designed for heavier hunting charges the lyman 577611 is designed with a thicker skirt for heavy hunting charges: http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bull ... entryID=93 (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-blackpowder.php?entryID=93)