1851 Swiss Federal Rifle; anybody shoot one?

[Tim Lyne]

.405 land-to-land, 425 groove-to-groove, 1 in 36" twist. Very nice full length walnut stock, keyed barrel, hook breech, double set triggers, adjustable tang tube-peep, heavy shcuetzen butt plate, weighs a ton and just generally is handsome looking all day long. It is a fine, fine rifle and I'm very pleased to own it. But..I don't own safe queens and hence, this must needs be shot.

This obviously isn't legal for N-SSA competition, but becasue we are a classy, well-bred and dashing group, I thought there might be others out there who own and shoot one of these. The 1/36" twist means a rather short bullet; I tried some .40 cal (.408) BPCR bullets meant for 1/16" and as you'd expect, they keyholed magnificently. I cut down a handful of the 425 grain .40's on the lathe until I wound up with a working bullet of 240 gr. which is pretty close to the 257 gr. of the original.
On a hunch i ordered a 245 gr. Lyman mould from BACO that fits the Greenhill formula, BUT...if anyone out there has already invented this wheel, I'd appreciate hearing from you.

Lefty...I miss ya..

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V

[RaiderANV]

Errrrrr,,,,,,,,,,,, does it have a Maynard tape priming lock :?: :!: :?: :!:

[Tim Lyne]

No tape worm on this one.

Mr. Raider, picture the finest, prettiest Maynard you've ever seen, lying on a green silk pillow inside of a really big clam shell, several angels flying around it; now, it you look five or six clamshells ahead of that Maynard, you'll see this Federal rifle...

I know it hurts, but somebody had to tell ya.

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

..."you'll see this Federal rifle."

Right behind a nice Rolling Block. :D


Jim Brady
2249V
Knap's Battery

[Tim Lyne]

Touche` Mr. Brady, touche`. Right behind a Rolling Block.

Amen and amen.

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952

[Don Dixon]

You want a bullet for a Muster 1851 Swiss Feldstutzer? Oh, have you asked a tough question.

I have three of the the rifles. All with slightly different bore diameters. That wasn't a particular problem for the Swiss, because they used lubricated, patched bullets. The patching took up the slight variations in bore diameter, since the rifles - like the class two Enfields - were hand and machine made to standard gauges. Over the service life of the rifles, they used three different bullets: the first was a cloth patched, solid conical; the second was a paper patched, conical compression bullet (somewhat like one of Greg Edington's Wilkinson/Lorenz bullet); and the last was a paper patched, hollow based conical. Go to the Swiss ammunition site - http://www.ch-munition.ch - which has illustrations of all three. Look under Papierpatronen (paper cartridges) and Vorderlader (muzzle loader). Its all in German, but the pictures are universal. That will give you an idea of what the bullets looked like.

Where to get a bullet mould?

Mine is a one-off, amateur machining project by a former owner of one of my rifles. The mould casts a duplicate of the Swiss hollow based bullet. He made it large enough that it can be sized down and shot "naked." It shoots very well in all three rifles with 55 grains of Swiss (naturally) FFFg. But, he made it very clear he had no interest in making any more of them.

The Geman company Vollmer made a small run of M1851's about 20 years ago (less than 2,000 I think). They were intended for international muzzle loading competition. The accompanying bullet mould also cast a copy of the hollow based bullet. One will occasionally see the moulds for sale on the German shooting site http://www.eGun.de . They generally go for 150 to 200 Euros.

One poster said - on http://www.Swissrifles.com I think - that he had had one of the Swiss designs copied by Doughty Enterprises (http://www.doughtyent.com). My recollection was that he was happy with it, but I can make no recommendations regarding Doughty Enterprises, never having used any of their products.

Hugo Schneider, Michael Am Rhyn, and others, authored a series of books - Bewaffnung und Ausrüstung der Schwiez Armee seit 1817 - on the various models of Swiss weapons. The volume on the M1851 Federal series of rifles is Eidgenossische Handfeuerwaffen. They are long out of print and expensive when you can find them. But, the Library of Congress does/did have a copy. Eidgenossische Handfeuerwaffen contains measured drawings of the three bullets. You will need to parse your way through the German, and convert Schritt, lines, and points to either English or Metric. The Swiss did not go metric until 1870. The Schritt was a pace based measurement, and was equivalent to .75 meters or 29.5 inches.

Good luck,

Don Dixon
2881V

[Tim Lyne]

Thanks much Don! I did find some information regarding the rifle and bullets used in a Harvard on line copy of "The Rifle" by Hans Busk, published in 1861. It lists two bullets that were used, one conical hollow base, patched, with a base diameter of .395, the other very similar but with no patch and a base diameter of .405

I tried my hand at turning an experimental "Cherrie" on the lathe yesterday afternoon and it turned out okay, but I'd really like to duplicate the original, complete with hollow base. My goal is to shoot this with as much convenience as we do with musket rounds, (meaning not having to completely clean the bore between every round) and the only way to do that would be to have a bullet that can hold enough lube to keep the bore sweet. I think the original can be made to do that...

Thanks again! I knew there would be someone out there who has/had one or two or three of these!

I'll let you know how my efforts turn out with the cherrie and mould!

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V

[le piaf]

Hello Tim ,
I have some drawing og the swiss bullets (from the 1856 to the first vetterli cartridge) , it is a .pdf if you want , i can send it to you by e-mail.

[Tim Lyne]

Thank you for the offer and I'll gladly accept it Mr. Piaf!

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V

[Tim Lyne]

Believe it or not, I found and purchased a mould that copies an original hollow base bullet for this rifle.
Don, thanks for your leads. With your help I'm getting a fine 160 year old rifle up and shooting again. That's about as good as it gets in our particular shooting universe.

Much obliged to all,

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V

[Don Dixon]

Tim,

Glad I could be of help. Where were you able to find the mould?

Regards,
Don

[Tim Lyne]

Don:
Doughty Enterprises. Nice fella with whom to do business. Got it for a reasonable price as well.

Much obliged!

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V

[Don Dixon]

Tim,

I would very much appreciate it if you would let me know how the bullet shoots.

Thanks,
Don

[Tim Lyne]

I'd be happy to send you a number of them Don. I'll let you know when I've got a few cast up.

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V

[RaiderANV]

No tape worm on this one.

......... now, it you look five or six clamshells ahead of that Maynard, you'll see this Federal rifle...

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V

And GOD once again calls on Saint Peter ta fetch the Great Book :shock:

Ut-oh,,,,,,Timmy's gone & done it now!! Green

[Tim Lyne]

The mould came in today and looks great. I'll cast up a bunch tonight.

I think a service each of us can provide the membership is to let each other know when we find someone who does what they say they'll do and do it well. Mr. Doughty (Richard) is a GREAT guy to deal with. Very responsive and helpful. If you're looking for a custom mould give him a call. I recommend him highly.

A satisfied customer,

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V

[Tim Lyne]

My last post on this topic, I promise!

This bullet works great. I shot a very nice .78" five shot 50yd. group on Saturday morning using this bullet with 53 gr. of 3f Goex. (Same load I shoot in my .40/65 BPCR)

I have to run a brush through the bore between shots but that's a small thing. Swiss would probably be cleaner.

Fun gun!

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V

[Don Dixon]

Tim,

Swiss probably would work better. It burns significantly cleaner than GOEX.

I would be more concerned about what you're using for lube. (Oh, Lord, I've raised the evil lube question!) I've used MCM with my bullets, and Swiss powder, and have not had to brush during practice sessions.

I would be interested in having a few of your bullets. If I could pick some up from you at the spring national that would be appreciated.

Regards,
Don Dixon

[Tim Lyne]

I'll bring some down with me. Just stop by and they're yours. Be sure to bring three forms of ID, your social security card and another person who can vouch for your identity.

Tim Lyne
Knap's Batt.
#2952V