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Terry Davis 10639
10-21-2008, 12:23 PM
FYI I disassembled a Goex cartridge last night to see how they are put together. This was the 235 grain lead bullet, and was not the reduced recoil loads in 45 LC caliber.

After pulling the bullet, I found a thin layer of filler material under the bullet. looked like find tumbleing media. I removed most of it until I got to the powder, which had been compressed by the bullet and media pressure.
I measured the charge, which had some grains of media in it, but not much. Measured 31 grains. I am going to guess that the media may have added the 1 grain, and that it was a 30 grain charge.
The powder has some grains that were coarser than 3F, but then some of it was fine and powdery. I could have done that while removing it, however.
I was surprised to find it was not all fine grain.
I
have a dillon press and dies for 45 lc, but have not yet set up for loading them. I know that dillon recommends not loading with black powder.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. I really wish I had bought a turret press rather than a progressive, but I thought it was what I wanted at the time.....

Terry

Bob Seng, 10979
10-21-2008, 12:39 PM
Terry couple of questions.......when you pulled the bullett how full was the case ? and did the filler and powder look like it had been compressed by the bullett?

Terry Davis 10639
10-21-2008, 01:16 PM
Terry couple of questions.......when you pulled the bullett how full was the case ? and did the filler and powder look like it had been compressed by the bullett?

Completely full. Yes, It appeared that the bullet put some compression on the charge. Once the bullet was off, I could probably have turned the case upside down and nothing would have fallen out. I had to loosen the filler a bit to get it to pour out. Even then some of the powder was compressed enough that it had to be persuaded to come out.

Frog
10-21-2008, 04:51 PM
I have loaded several thousand rounds of 44/40 with BP in my Dillon 550. I have also never used a filler in the 44/40, Smith or Maynard cartridges. My accuracy with those loads is limited by the loose nut behind the butt, not the ammo.

Terry Davis 10639
10-21-2008, 04:59 PM
I have loaded several thousand rounds of 44/40 with BP in my Dillon 550. I have also never used a filler in the 44/40, Smith or Maynard cartridges. My accuracy with those loads is limited by the loose nut behind the butt, not the ammo.

Do you do anything special with the powder charge? Some make a big deal out of using a drop tube to compress the charge.
How do you meter the powder? with the dillion set up, or seperatly?

Frog
10-21-2008, 06:40 PM
Standard Dillon powder measure. I used 27.5 Gr. 3F in the 44/40. Never a problem. I used a Lee factory crimp die for the final crimp. I use them for all my pistol calibers.
I was able to run 250-300 per hour easily without trying real hard.

Terry Schultz, 10057
10-23-2008, 07:27 PM
Terry
Are you sure it was black powder in the cartridge and not the new Pinical powder sold by Goex? We took one appart and it looked like Pinical to us, and as you know this powder is not approved for N-SSA skirmishing.
Terry

Terry Davis 10639
10-26-2008, 11:21 PM
Terry
Are you sure it was black powder in the cartridge and not the new Pinical powder sold by Goex? We took one appart and it looked like Pinical to us, and as you know this powder is not approved for N-SSA skirmishing.
Terry


I don't know for sure what is in them, but a little research at the Goex web site shows that they list Black dawge cartridges as a seperate product from Pinnacle Black Dawge Cartridges.
So, we all know about assumptions, but that leads me to think that the standard black dawge are bp, and the Pinnacle black dawge cartridges are pinnacle powder.

I suppose it is possible that the standard BD cartridges are a mix of BP and Pinnacle, but I have sent an e-mail to Goex customer service for clarification, rather than guessing.

Perhaps you disassembled a Pinnacle Black Dawge Cartridge?

I know what I have is not the Pinnacle Black Dawge version, and it sure smoked and smelled like good old Goex.

Attached below is a screen shot from the Goex page. If you look carefully under products, you will see the two different cartridges.

And yes, I am well aware that substitue black powder is not allowed. I mainly wanted to see what they are loading for a charge weight for a starting point for my own loads. At $25 or so a box, I don't think you have to worry about someone using them much, at least not me.


Terry

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh279/tgd31968/goexpage.jpg

Terry Davis 10639
10-31-2008, 01:18 PM
As a follow up, here is the official response from Goex:

Dear Mr. Davis, Thank you for your inquiry. You are correct. The standard Black Dawge cartridges are loaded with black powder. There is a separate line of cartridges that are loaded with Pinnacle. The Pinnacle loads come in a different color box, and are labeled as being loaded with Pinnacle.

Sincerely, Bill Bagwell

Now what he didn't tell me was what type of black powder it is. 2f, 3f or that "cartridge grade". I assume cartridge grade is finer, but I don't know what the difference is since I have never seen it.

So, if you REALLY hate reloading for henry, and can shell out $25 or so per 50 rounds, you are in luck. In my case, they really were not that accurate out of my Henry, even off the bench. I tried both the regular and reduced recoil loads. Regular grouped slightly better.

Terry

Edwin Flint, 8427
10-31-2008, 03:29 PM
Terry,

I suspect the cartridges are loaded with .425-.427 sized bullets. Most of the Henry's, mine included take .429-430 to shoot a tight group. Tried for months to get a friend's Henry to shoot right with factory loads and then some hand loads he put together. Pulled the bullets and replaced with .429 bullets that I use on my Henry, group tightened up to great.

I have some Cartridge grade Goex. It appears a little finer granule than 2Fg but not as fine as a 3Fg.

Frog
10-31-2008, 03:47 PM
I was using .430 bullets in my 44/40. The Italians rifled them with the 44 Mag broaches at .429. Mine was definitely not .427 as the 44/40 was supposed to be.

Terry Davis 10639
11-01-2008, 12:27 AM
Those would really rattle down my barrel. Mine take a .452. (I am not a 44-40).

At least, that is supposedly what the bore slugged out to be. I have not checked to see what the bullet diameter on the 45 LC BD cartridges is.

Terry

Terry Davis 10639
11-10-2008, 10:20 PM
Those would really rattle down my barrel. Mine take a .452. (I am not a 44-40).

At least, that is supposedly what the bore slugged out to be. I have not checked to see what the bullet diameter on the 45 LC BD cartridges is.

Terry
Update:
I loaded up some .452 bullets, 250 grain and 200 grain, with 30.4 grains of 3F. At 50 yards from a bench, I could barely keep most of them in the scoring rings on a 50 yd musket target.
I am going to try to drop the charge and see if they tighten up any, but I am wondering if I should be using a differnt diameter bullet. Anyone else have a Uberti Henry in 45 LC that has a sucessfull load?

Thanks,

Terry

Southron Sr.
11-11-2008, 03:25 PM
I understand that Dillon is now selling a kit that can be installed on a Dillon press that is specifically designed for loading black powder cartridges.

I suggest you check with Dillon about the availability of that kit.

Gary B
11-15-2008, 08:46 AM
Terry,
I fought with my 45LC for a long time. Accuracy dropped after 5 or so rounds. I discovered it was due to fouling near the muzzel caused by my .452 round being undersized. I purchased a .455 RCBS sizing die and the fouling all but quit and the accuracy holds well for team shooting. However, it still does not shoot as well as my 44-40.
Hope this helps,
Gary B.

Mikeski
11-17-2008, 03:09 PM
Terry
I've been shootin a 66 for lot's of years. Best I could do is 2" group using a Lee 6 gang mould which throughs a 235 gr .454 bullet I don't size just dip lube and load. I did however have to make a .455 sizer plug to open up the brass. All that in front of 30 grs. 3f (now Swiss 3f) But remember that 45 Long Colt will start to get slow in the action after 25 or 30 rounds. and that's why I went to the tryed and true 44/40 Clean and Fast. Hope this helped Mikeski.