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View Full Version : 2 Band Rifle-Musket, Rifle or Artillery Model?



Scott Kurki, 12475
10-16-2008, 02:14 PM
I am new to Civil War arms and have been trying to figure the difference between a 2 band rifle-musket like a Fayetteville, a rifle and an artillery model. Can any of you lay it all out for me?

J Weber 4114V
10-16-2008, 09:51 PM
I will take a stab at this. For us a rifle is a 2 band weapon that was orgionaly made that way ie 41 Mississippi, 55 rifle, Zouave. There were many southern and contract types also made. They all typically have a 32”-33” barrel.
Artillery model would be a standard 3 band “rifled musket that is cut down to rifle length.
Here is where it gets a bit odd. There are only union records of a small number of 1855 rifled muskets being converted to the “artillery” type. Yet there are 1000s of 1861 and 1863s orgionial artillerys about .
These were all done post war from surplus arms by firms such as Bannermans for sale to military schools etc. With very little actual use many of these rifles were used by N-SSA members in the early days so they were grandfathered in by our Small Arms people decades ago.
They have spec sheets on all of them so many of our members are still building them.
This is it in a nutshell.
Check out the “approved firearm” list off the home page and ask any SAC member if you have something that does not fit.

Scott Kurki, 12475
10-16-2008, 11:53 PM
Thanks Jim. That helps explain allot to me. I was hearing different terms being used and also seeing them used in various documents and it was just confussing me. So a Fayetteville would be a rifle because it was designed or at least built as a 2 band gun instead of being cut down from a 3 band.

So then are the cut down versions the only ones considered artillery types or are all rifle length guns considered artillery types?

Greg Ogdan, 11444
10-17-2008, 08:41 AM
Cutdowns are "artillery", as Jim said. If the gun was originally made in a 2 band configuration, it is a rifle. Examples are Zouave, 1841 "Mississippi", 1855 rifle. These guns also will have thicker barrels than cutdowns.

J Weber 4114V
10-17-2008, 09:24 AM
skurki,you got it. Remember that the terms we use today were are not what they commonly used then.
Musket = smoothbore
Riflemusket = smoothbore converted by rifling ie some 1816s or 1842s
Rifled musket = standard 3 band
rifle = 33"barrled short rifle
Artillery rifle = 99% of the time a cutdown post war mod of a rifled musket
Another sabot to be thrown in the works this applys to american made stuff only.You can not cut down a Enfield to a artillery.It just was not done and would not pass the SAC inspectors.
When you get into the other imports from europe I will defer to the experts.
Hope this helps.

Jim_Burgess_2078V
10-17-2008, 01:30 PM
I beg to differ slightly with Jim Weber's last post. A "rifled musket" is a converted/altered smoothbore (often .69 cal.). A "rifle-musket" is a 3-band, musket length arm originally rifled at the time of manufacture (mostly .58 cal.) and the so-called "artillery models" are cut down versions of the latter.
-Jim Burgess, 15th Conn. Vol. Inf.

Scott Kurki, 12475
10-17-2008, 05:42 PM
Thanks again folks, this is very interesting. There is so much to this hobby that I cannot ever see an end to the learning. The part about the Artillery Rifle being a little lighter than a rifle is of particular interest to ,e because I have an old shoulder injury and I am trying to take a little nose weight off my long arms to help me deal with it. Still, I do not want a gun so light that it beats my other shoulder up either.

Southron Sr.
10-20-2008, 03:36 PM
While I will admit that many three band rifle-muskets were "cut down" in the post-war era by surplus dealers, they existed during the war.

Whitney made and sold a two-band "Artillery Rifle" that had a flush lockplate. According to a reference work I have, some of the Special Model 1861's were delivered from the factory as two-band "Artillery Rifles."

Some of the "proof" that is cited for the non-existance of two-band "Artillery Rifles" is the "fact" that no one has found a Civil War era photograph of a soldier holding a two-band "Artillery Rifle" in the photo.

That is about as illogical as saying because there is not a photo of General Lee sleeping in his tent, he never slept in a tent!

barrett
10-22-2008, 12:58 AM
So what exactly is a "Minie musket"?

Barrett-7th Va

paul w/McGregor's 385V
10-22-2008, 07:30 AM
Barrett,
The Minie Musket was a French .69 smoothbore, that the French rifled to fire the more accurate bullet designed by Minie.

Coincidentally, there was a segment on Minie and the development of the Minie bullet on the History Channel.

Take care and be safe
pfb

Bob F, 1st NJLA
10-23-2008, 01:20 PM
I don't think everyone is reading off the same sheet of music when discussing"Artillery rifles". Is the definition "any full length rifle/musket altered to 2 band length"? If so then the key word is "altered" in which case a rifle such as the Whitney 2 band rifle does not qualify as an artillery rifle. It was made as a rifle with a 33" barrel. If "altered" doesn't enter into it then are all of the 33" Mississippis, M1855s, Enfields, etc. artillery rifles? I don't think anyone would buy that. Likewise Robert Reilly in "United States Military Small Arms 1816-1865" mentions Colt and Amoskeag turning out 2 band rifles, not cutting them down but producing them as 2 band rifles, but there are a number of people who have their doubts about this revelation. I knew Bob and some of his information was gained from"primary research", examining existing specimens. I feel safer putting my faith in period documentation. I would like to see some documentation from the Civil War years that lists some specifications on barrel length and states that the guns were cut down and names them "artillery rifles". There is a possibility that AFTER the CW Springfield did shorten some rifle/muskets to 36" but I haven't seen the documentation.
Just my 2 cents!!!!!
Bob

RaiderANV
10-24-2008, 12:29 PM
An then GOD Created the MAYNARD and it was good. :mrgreen:

He thought by doin' so he'd end all the question of these "lesser" toyz :?

Scott Kurki, 12475
10-24-2008, 06:09 PM
So is a mini musket the same as a musketoon?

Is a Maynard kind of like a cartoon, PJ? :P

Mike w/ 34th
10-26-2008, 06:10 PM
A minie musket is one that is rifled to shoot a minie ball.

barrett
10-27-2008, 01:41 AM
The following early war inventory of the weapons of Co "G", 7th Va Infantry, is what prompted the question. I'm sure they knew what they meant, but the names they give the weapons really don't give us much of a clue as to what they're actually talking about- It's possible that, in context, a minnie musket might be a converted large calibre smoothbore, as compared to a minnie rifle- the same for Springfield muskets, maybe 1842 smoothbores- I know a lot of the 7th was carrying smoothbores in 1861-wonder what a Belgium rifle is? -Barrett, 7th Va Infantry


ARMS INVENTORY- CO "G", 7TH VA-1861
1) MINNIE RIFLES 11
2) MINNIE MUSKETS 24
3) SPRINGFIELD MUSKETS 23
4) SPRINGFIELD RIFLES 5
5) ENFIELD RIFLES 4
6) BELGIUM RIFLES 7
7) MISSIPPI RIFLES 4

RaiderANV
10-27-2008, 02:14 AM
Is a Maynard kind of like a cartoon, PJ? :P

Oh NO he didn't go thar :shock:

I seems ta recall ah certian someone HASN'T been voted in yet. 8)


MAYNARDS!!!! GET yer Made by the Hand of GOD Maynards!!!!!!!

Scott Kurki, 12475
10-27-2008, 12:55 PM
Is a Maynard kind of like a cartoon, PJ? :P

Oh NO he didn't go thar :shock:

I seems ta recall ah certian someone HASN'T been voted in yet. 8)


MAYNARDS!!!! GET yer Made by the Hand of GOD Maynards!!!!!!!

Me begs yer pardon oh merciful one, please remember that I am but a poor ignorant newbie just try'n ta get me feet wet. :wink:

R. McAuley 3014V
10-28-2008, 10:32 PM
CENSORED

barrett
10-29-2008, 11:02 PM
That's interesting- Wonder what happened to the rifle?-Barrett, 7th Va Infantry