Who is the maker and Small Arms approval?

[Bob Huntoon]

I received an e mail from a company I have dealt with in the past and I noticed they now carry an 1842 Musket and the Palmetto variant for the price of $ 451.00!

This is not a Pedersoli, could they be Armi Sports?

Check out the site:

http://www.loyalistarms.com/springfield1842.html

What do you think?

Digger

[Lee Hoffecker]

Bob,
From the pictures I would say they look like muskets made in India. I tried to access some of the boxes at the top of the screen to get more information but none of them would bring up another screen. Very strange!
Lee

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Bob,

I asked several years ago, and they were then made in India. They since have also started offering Pedersoli made arms at a much higher price in addition to their India made guns. There have been some barrel failures on some of the India made guns. So buyer beware!!!!

[John Gross]

The description for the Palmetto states that it has brass furniture, and the picture appears to show brass bands, trigger guard and butt plate (and possibly the sideplate too). The originals which were brass mounted (not all were) only had the brass bands. This MAY have an affect on SAC approval.

Looks nice in the picture though, with the polished steel and the brass furniture :)

John Gross

http://www.loyalistarms.com/palmetto.jpg

http://www.loyalistarms.com/palmetto1.jpg

http://www.loyalistarms.com/palmetto2.jpg

[Bob Huntoon]

Contact has been made to this company and they are of Indian manufacture.

Suppose at the price break that buying one of these and getting a new barrel MIGHT be a practical solution to getting a reasonably priced smoothbore musket.

Just have to do the math when compared to a Pedersoli or an Armi Sport.

Digger

[R Filbert]

Hello folks as it turns out I did the same thing -Bought a 1795 musket in flint looks just like the origianals Ive looked at w/ few acceptions -Works great! But sac wont allow the Indian barrels- as you said- it is cost efective to rebarrel-As I am going to do just that. I proofed my barrel by putting a double charge in it and removing the barrel from the stock incase it did blow it wouldent ruin the wood-Used 114 grns of tripple F and two balls and put it in a lead sled gun vice and fused it -took measurements of barrel in and out after setting it off! heck of a bang! didnt blow up and measurements showed no swelling- have shot it several times W/ good results-The type of steel they use compares to 10-40 hot rolled cold drawn Had a freind check this out at Fabritech by the numbers given at the bottom of the screen that gives type of steel composition. Muskets are very nice as I cansee as far as flint guns go as most if not all were hand made- Screws are just as old ones no machined metric stuff! All appears to be fair quality for indian made arms as these folks claime to go over them as they receive them to emsure quality. And they try to mark them as origianals were marked- Could have a better eagle stamp on the lock but every thing else loks to be fine- Not saying Im an expert or anything like that but I have hd and handle quite a few oldies.

[Edwin Flint]

These props are shipped into the country without the vents drilled. This is to get them into the country without them being considered firearms at all. They look pretty but I would be very careful. The importer absolutely refuses to identify the maker. Beware!!!

I would not shoot without Hoyt or Whitacre barrel on it.

[Space Cowboy]

I know the company (companies), they usally exhibit their goods on the IWA show in Nürnberg, Germany. I talked to the representatives last year and they clearly said that their guns are absolutely not manufactured for shooting. These guns are manufactured in India and Pakistan. I would say it is not only barrel question. The wood can be dangerous also if it breaks after a shot.

We tested some of the guns in the Hungarian CIP gun proofing laboratory. Some were good, some were immediately rejected after checking the bore with endoscope.

Take care. The cheapest gun can be the most expensive for your health...

Cheers,
SC

[Maillemaker]

I would never purhcase a firearm to use as an actual firearm that was not manufactured for use as an actual firearm.

If you are taking a decoration and drilling a touch hole in it to make it fire, you are taking a big risk.

Steve

[Blair]

Steve,

The issue is that most/many of these people looking at or considering these kind of "thingies" are only looking at the price/monies they might have to spend. If they can save 40 or 50 bucks on a piece of furniture (firearm), that leaves them $500. for that hand made/hand sown frock coat. (problem is, the frock coat ain't going to hurt them or anybody when it coms apart!)
They know nothing of the actual firearm, nor do they care! It is a game to them. One that they want to play at, and, as a side note, everybody knows shooting blanks are not hazardous or dangerous.
You have seen how some of these "play time Warriors" react to person (like yourself) who have an interest in actual live firing of the Primary tool of a soldier. (Yes! I am being very sarcastic!)
Blair

[Eggman]

Let's not forget that a large number of reenactors read this forum (it may be they have us outnumbered). They read this forum for a reason - because it is FULL of useful information, much of it not available anywhere else, especially as regards everything and anything technical about Civil War firearms. We must be patient and remember we all start out ignorant. But ignorance does not necessarily mean stupidity. Stupidity begins when good advice is clearly given along with examples to support same, and then it is ignored. At that point consequences are probably deserved.

[Blair]

Thank you Mother Eggman,

Was there something you might have missed about "non proofed" pieces of furniture being used and sold a firearms?
Persons that come here are looking for info to safely shoot their fireams with some measure of accuracy.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

If you ever saw a rifle blow up in someones face you would be very leery of buying a gun of unknown manufacture and because the price is cheap. Back in the sixties my father-in-laws rifle blow up while he was shooting it off a bench rest. It was like a bomb. The gun literary blew to pieces. The only thing that save him was that the bolt and receiver held together or else he would have been killed. It was not a cheap rifle and was made by a well know manufacture. The bolt locked up that tight that we had to put it in a vice and beat the hell out of to get it open. Cheap is cheap, you get what you pay for. To take a musket that is not made to shoot and drill a vent hole in it and shoot it is nut's. You can not protect a fool from himself.

[John Holland]

I see my dear friend Mr. Filbert has reserected an old thread! That's OK, because the topic needs to be refreshed.

First I want to offer my thanks to Space Cowboy for confirming the Small Arms Committee's position on these arms, and why they are not allowed for use in the N-SSA's competitive matches.

These arms have been the subject of many discussion threads on quite a number of shooting boards on the internet. Some of them have become quite heated and were locked. The bottom line is the manufacturer holds no liability whatsoever if you drill a vent and actually fire the arm in question. If YOU fire an arm that was imported as a non-firing decorator, and the arm suffers a catastrophic failure thereby injuring a second party, you and you alone will be held responsible for all injuries and damages.

There have been a number of photos of these arms that have suffered a catastrophic failure. In every instance the barrels have burst in ragged chunks. They do not swell or expand before fracturing in the same manner as gun barrel steel does. Look at how many "bulged barrels" there are in existence on antique firearms. They "bulge" they do not burst. That is what gun barrel steel is designed to do!

There is an email running around the internet that shows the result of a modern high power rifle that was fired with a bore sighting device left in the bore at the muzzle end. What happened? The barrel split and peeled back like a banana peel. It did not burst and spread shrapnell all over the place. When the Indian made barrels on the arms in question burst they scatter shrapnel pieces so far that all of the pieces from any of the catastrophic failures have never been found, only the big chunks.

It has been mentioned that perhaps the Indian made arms could be given an Individual Approval if the barrels were replaced with a barrel from an approved barrel maker. The answer is "Perhaps". That is because the arm will have to meet the long established dimensional and cosmetic criteria of the N-SSA's Small Arms Committee before it will be considered for approval on an individual level.

Sincerely,
John Holland
Chairman, N-SSA Small Arms Committee

[Eggman]

I thought this string did an excellent job airing this issue and providing some possible life saving information to viewers, and for this I feel like we owe Digger a vote of thanks for bringing it up. I didn't realize when I urged patience when explaining this stuff to folks I was coming down on one side or other about this issue. I hadn't realized there were sides. I guess I'm going senile.
One last comment, there are other ways to get in trouble with a gun than just the barrel. I recall one instance where barrel pins on a musket had been replaced with nails resulting. As the gun was fired the barrel gradually tore loose (the nails being much softer metal) severely damaging the stock at the forearm and breach, but luckily there was no damage to the shooter. Continued firing might have resulted in such however.

[Ken Hansgen, 11094]

Hey Eggman, join the club (approaching senility, that is!). And in case you don't know it, there's no "may" about it, reenactors DO outnumber us, by a longshot.

[John Holland]

Ken -

Eggman wasn't comparing the total number of re-enactors v.s. the total number of N-SSA members. His comparison was how many re-enactors read this forum v.s. how many N-SSA members read this forum.

JDH

[Mike McDaniel]

There's more cross-talk between reenactors and Skirmishers than people realize. I've got a reenactment BB on my daily read list - it's a great place to pick up leather goods, etc.

[John Holland]

Mike, you are quite correct. The Small Arms Committee answers inumerable questions on Civil War arms and their history posed by both re-enactors and collectors alike. I see the service we provide as doing our part to fulfill the obligations of the N-SSA's 501 (c) 3 status by assisting in the education of the public in Civil War arms history.

I do agree with Eggman that the majority of the users, followers, etc. of this BB, are probably not N-SSA members. I can use my own Unit as an example. We have 33 members, and out of that number I can count about 5 who ever read the BB, much less on a regular basis. I would bet that my Unit is typical.

JDH

[Space Cowboy]

Some updates on this question. I just received an invitation from Delhi Gun House, and Indian company manufacturing muzzleloaders to meet them at IWA show in Nürnberg. They advertise their products as shooting items. Here is the copy of their e-mail:

"Dear Sirs,


We are Manufacturers & Exporters of Muzzle Loading Pistols & Muskets since 1970. All our Pistols & Muskets are authentic Replicas with all Original specifications, designs and markings / stampings as these are individually hand made.
These are also popular with Reenactors, Shooting Club, Collectors and Hollywood Movie Production Houses.

All our Pistols & Muskets will be displayed at IWA 2012 Nurnberg, Germany & can be seen at "Delhi Gun House" Stand No. 5-305 at Nurenberg from 9th till 12th March.

We look forward to your visit to our stand.

(Photos of our IWA 2011 stand are attached).

A list of our satisfied business friends is as follows :-

U.S.A.

1. Track of the Wolf, Inc.,
2. MVTCo Inc. "

[John Holland]

Space Cowboy -

Very interesting information. I hope you can give us a report on what you may have seen at the IWA show in Nurnberg. If you ever care to communicate with me directly, you may do so by email. My address is jh44ny(at)verizon.net . Just substitute @ for the (at).

John Holland
Chairman, N-SSA Small Arms Committee

[Space Cowboy]

John,
I will try to make a video documentary of the items. The question for me is are they really made to shoot, and are they proofed, or they just know that people are using them after drilling the touch hole.
SC

[Space Cowboy]

Hello Shooters,

I just returned from Nürnberg, IWA show. I found two Indian companies selling (so called) blackpowder replicas. I talked to the representatives as well, here are the infos I could get:

- the guns are manufactured without the touch holes, so they can be shipped without licenses
- none of the makers take responsibility if somebody modifies them to shoot
- the barrels are NOT proofed
- the steel they using is "very very good, don't worry don't blow up" (with the words of the representative) - are you convinced???
- they don't take responsibility if somebody shoots them, but they say they can shoot. - now this is really not a fair behaviour with the customers!!
- they don't have recommended load. With the words of the representative: "They only blow if you put too much powder in it, don't worry..." - are you convinced?
- In the price list the guns are advertised as "decorative guns"
- the overall quality of these guns are very-very far from even the cheapest American, or European repros.

I have to say it was not convincing at all. My concern on this subjects are:
- reenactors says that there is no gas pressure if shooting blanks. I say this is not true as I saw reenactor leaving the ramrod in the bore accidentally and firing it. The pressure in this case is much higher than shooting a ball, or just a wad. And it can happen!!
- some shooters says they tried it with heavy load + ball. Ok, mnaybe it won't blow with one powder + one ball. But what happens if somebody accidentally loads powder + ball + powder + ball. A good barrel stands this pressure. It will have a bubble for sure, but will not blow, and this is true for the cheapest proofed barrels also. Can the Indian repros do the same?? Ot what happens if you leave an airgap between the ball and powder, or two balls instead of one? Many questions that cannot be answered by the maker, as they don't test and proof the guns!!!

Here is the video I made:

http://youtu.be/GE7Yy84qGRs

So take care guys! Maybe these guns don't blow for the first shot, but never make a mistake in loading...

cheers,
SC

[kevikens]

For many years I did Revolutionary War reenactments and some of these Indian brown Besses were showing up for sale. On about one in five the frizzens were not lined up to properly produce sparks. Either the frizzen or the lock was actually warped and no amount of tinkering could get the frizzen properly aligned to produce the necessary spark. I don't think anyone at the Indian arsenals really intends for these things to do anything other than hang over the fireplace.

[Maillemaker]

Great video and review.

My opinion: Anyone who drills out one of these things and burns powder in one, even blanks, is playing with a pipe bomb.

Steve

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Good Job Space Cowboy.
Is your life or being maimed for life worth a few bucks? And if you are not hurt, what about the shooter next to you. If he gets hurt or killed because you altered the gun. Some lawyer will have a field day suing you for all you got. It' not worth it period.

[John Holland]

A most sincere thank you to SC for taking the time at the recent IWA show to investigate the India/Pakistan made "arms".

I believe the case has been made, and closed, in no uncertain terms that they are truly decorative items. Please note that the manufacturer specifically assumes no responsibility whatsoever if they are made to fire.

I hope everyone will now see why the N-SSA has not, and will not, allow these arms to be fired in our competitive matches.

Very well done, SC, and again I thank you for the comprehensive presentation.

John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee
N-SSA

[Space Cowboy]

Your welcome. I beleiwe that NSSA made a good decision on this subject. I received information, that some of this guns are proof tested in Germany after drilling the touch hole. I accept this. Proofing the barrels means it will not blow if the gun is loaded correctly. Let me give you an example. I work regularly with the official Hungarian proof house on different educational projects. The CIP proofing is done the same way in every CIP member countries, so the following procedure appies to all CIP members.

the proof load of a smooth bore .69 cal musket is 13 g (200 grain) of ethalon blackpowder + 65 g (1000 grain) bullet. With this load the max gas pressure is 750 bar, which is not a really high pressure regarding firearms. This means that the maximum working load of the gun will be 6,5 g blackpowder + 35 g bullet (half of the proofing load). If the barrel does not blow, or does not deform, and the wood doesn not brake the gun passed the test. This proofing simulates the double powder + double bullet load situation. The CIP houses of course do not want destroy the guns, so they never test those loads that can damage the pieces. They don't test shoot the guns received for inspection with ramrod in the bore, or powder-bullet-powder-bullet loads. This is up to the manufacturer to take responsibility that event the worst case won't cause injuries. Even the cheapest replicas are manufactured to protect the shooters.

But this is something that is never done with the India muskets. So proofing the bore is very important. But it is only the first step.

[Blair]

Balazs,

Thank you for a very concise report.
The normal, average, everyday Skirmishers out there are not normally the ones needing to be educated on this subject.

It is the folks that do this for fun, as a hobby, that need to be informed of these very issues.
This is not going to happen when various forums 'lock' down such discussion/informational threads as this one offers, for those who truly wish and want to know.
How can anyone reach beyond this kind of intolerance to these issues?

[Space Cowboy]

Blair,

You are right. This topic is something that needs to be celared out. I beleiwe that all manufacturers should play by the same rules. I am sure that the India companies could also proof their guns, and sell them as guns. This would clear out this mess.

Balázs