P53 Gun show find

[Steve Weems]

Picked up an original P53 at a gun show. Very nice condition with a shootable bore. I've shot mostly reproductions and so do not know much about the
meaning of the many markings on this rifle except some internet reading I have done. A recap of the markings are as follows:
Rear of barrel on left side reads Crown over B over 32 Crown over V.R. over Crossed flags over 2P over Broad Arrow over W.D.
Lock Plate screws and tang screw all have broad arrows
Barrel bands all have Broad Arrows over W.D. over crown over X over 1
Lock Plate : Rear of hammer is Crown over V.R--front of hammer is Date1862 over L.A.Co. towards front is Crown over a downward
point arrow and towards the front is numeral 2
Butt plate has Broad Arrow over W.D. over Crown over X over a 7 or possibly 71
Trigger guard has a broad arrow over W.D. over crown over X over 1
Stock has a cartouche which is a circle inside a larger circle. In space created by the two circles at the top is the word London and at
Bottom is the date 18??--last two numerals are obscured by dings in wood.

In addition to above there is a 4 digit number on right side of barrel below the rear sight.

Any insight into what these markings mean will be appreciated. Any good books on P53 markings?

Tanks for any help--Steve Weems

[R. McAuley 3014V]

The various “Crown/X” marks simply denote the sub-inspections of parts, the “X” denoting parts made by the London Armoury Company. The "Crown/B/32" is a Birmingham inspectors mark, probably denoting that the barrel is Birmingham made (as most barrels not made by London Armoury Co or the RSAF at Enfield were Birmingham made). The stamping of a “Crown/VR/crossed pennants/2P” is a post-1868 2nd or definitive proofmark usually borne by 1st Class percussion rifle muskets which were re-barrelled. Many of the post-1868 barrels will also be marked "STEEL," and simply replaced an earlier iron barrel that was damaged or shot out. The “arrow/WD” is a typical marking of surplus arms, such that when the arrow is pointing away from the WD (i.e. War Department) represents a surplused item, whereas when the arrow is pointing toward the WD is a receiving mark when the item was received into government stores. Sometimes arms will be marked with the arrows pointing towards one another, the surplus mark canceling out the receiving mark. The roundel in the stock should read "London Armoury Co." with the date in the center. Below the roundel is usually a number 1, 2, 3, or 4 representative of the class of arms, with "1" being 1st Class and "4" being 4th Class typically reserved for arms in poor condition or drilling purposes only. The fact that you have a government Enfield marked lock-plate simply means that the original LACo lock was swapped out with a government musket. This is not unusual just as there are a number of London Armoury muskets with Enfield-marks stocks, and some LACo stock re-stamped "Enfield." As for the four-digit number stamped on the side of the barrel, these are usually modern marks, like antique arms imported by someone serving in the U.S. Air Force in Europe (particularly in England), the Air Force will require such numerals to be added to any antique firearms not bearing serial numbers as a condition of the arm being imported to the U.S.

William Greener (1858) Gunnery in 1858

http://books.google.com/books?id=A4TPW7 ... t&resnum=1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=A4TPW796iD8C&dq=William+Greener,+Gunnery&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=HtJK0YC_In&sig=eIRra0uLrCv1ABB1uqcDBCIvqQo&hl=en&ei=KL87StLaF4XAMo6V6awO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1)

Marcellus Hartley (1903) A Brief Memoir

http://www.archive.org/stream/marcellus ... f_djvu.txt (http://www.archive.org/stream/marcellushartley00jwhf/marcellushartley00jwhf_djvu.txt)

“Artifex” and “Opifex” (1907) The Causes in Decay in a British Industry

http://books.google.com/books?id=R9jl0Z ... 0%9D+(1907 (http://books.google.com/books?id=R9jl0Zt_LAoC&dq=%E2%80%9CArtifex%E2%80%9D+and+%E2%80%9COpifex%E 2%80%9D+(1907))+The+Causes+in+Decay+in+a+British+I ndustry&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=N7-Qm3HBm5&sig=V2zbSFBO0BylMyWMaD-Uyrrd090&hl=en&ei=lMA7SqeSFo2gMsLF5aAO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

W. W. Greener (1907) The Gun and Its Development

http://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAA ... ener+(1907 (http://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR7&lpg=PR7&dq=W.+W.+Greener+(1907))+The+Gun+and+Its+Developme nt&source=bl&ots=W6UWDvyY0f&sig=27A7U_rZPmrNKDr20xRN-8f1JVk&hl=en&ei=wsA7Svn8DabAMpT4mMMO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1


“On the Progress of Small Arms Manufacture by John Dent Goodman (Chairman of the Birmingham Small Arms Company) in the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society, London, December 1865, pp494-506

http://books.google.com/books?id=EA82AA ... dman+(1865 (http://books.google.com/books?id=EA82AAAAMAAJ&pg=PP11&lpg=PP11&dq=J.+D.Goodman+(1865))++in+the+Journal+of+the+Roy al+Statistical+Society&source=bl&ots=v7Vg67ER1L&sig=XjbpjvJbxj5PttL6j7hASQrRGRo&hl=en&ei=PtM7StfBBYamM7_63bwO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

[Steve Weems]

Mr. McAuley--Thank you for for such a detailed reply and the references. I did find a 1 underneath the roundel. The markings on the roundel are very clear as London at the top and the 18?? at the bottom.
In the center of the roundel is a crown. The ramrod has a Crown over B over numeral 2. What you have told me gives me some real relief as this now appears to be a British government refurbished
rifle that was declared surplus and sold as such. My biggest fear was that it would turn out to be made from scrap metal in an Afgan village! I was able to get several good pictures but was not able to
get them posted. Thanks again for the education.---Steve Weems

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Corrections: The various “Crown/X” marks simply denote the sub-inspections of parts, the “X” denoting parts made by the "London Small Arms Company, Ltd." not the London Armoury Company which went bankrupt in 1865. Mind you, much of the machinery from the London Armoury Company was acquired by L.S.A. Co., the two companies are not one in the same. Also, the roundel or cartouche stamped in the stock is for L.S.A. Co, and consists of the double bordure with "LONDON" at the top, flanked by 5-pointed stars, and a crown inside over a broad arrow. The mark "Crown/B/numeral" is for Birmingham Small Arms Co, Ltd. which in 1863 began making interchangeable arms in their new factory at Small Heath, Birmingham. A 1st Class mark was issued to new arms to services entitled to first-class arms. 2nd Class arms went to reserve units and the T.A. (territorial army). I don't know that I would go as far as to say that what you have is a musket refurbished by the government as much as either repaired in the field or by a subsequent owner or small arms dealer. Also, arabic numerals were also used in Afghanistan and Pakistan, though in India the numerals usually encountered are in Sanskrit.

Ian Skennerton (2005) Small Arms Identification Series No. 20: .577 Pattern 1853 Rifle Musket & Snider-Enfield.
In America, available from Arms & Militaria Press, P.O. Box 5014, Grants Pass, OR 97527

[Steve Weems]

MR. McAuley-Thanks again for the information-I will have to get the book now! The Stock roundel does have the crown in center with flanking stars. At the right angle I can see
the broad arrow below the Crown. I am attaching several pictures that be of interest.---Steve Weems

[Muley Gil]

"...the Air Force will require such numerals to be added to any antique firearms not bearing serial numbers as a condition of the arm being imported to the U.S."

I don't believe they require this anymore. I bought a couple of guns (Sniders) at the bazaar at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan and they never mentioned stamping them. The Air Corps even did the import paperwork for us.

When I shipped them home, it was from the PO at the Army camp in Kabul. Just had to send them registered mail.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Gil,

It's actually a DOD requirement, and really concerns the registration of civilian-owned personal firearms stored on a military installation in a unit arms room as opposed to those personal firearms purchased on the civilian market and maintained in a private residence off-post or in the instance of souvenirs purchased in a war zone as in your situation. I'm sure the military authorities in Aghanistan gave you some other alternatives to shipping your "souvenirs" home had you wanted to keep them with you, eh? If you shipped them home, you done good.

Back when I served in the Army, I was authorized to carry personally-owned weapons into the field (i.e. AK-47, Uzis, etc.) so long as they were used for training purposes or similar command briefings, but while in garrison (on military installation) I had to maintain the weapons within my unit arms room, or wherever I elected to locate my unit arms room, since I was the unit's armorer and small arms instructor. Had I brought in any "unserialized" firearms, I would have had to register them and submit to having the weapon stamped with a serial number.

Per AR 190-11 "Physical Security of Arms, Ammunition, and Explosives," requires compliance with the Small Arms Serialization Program, in that all weapons with serial numbers will be registered with the DOD Central Registry according to AR 710–3, paragraph 4–11. A manual recording system shall be used for those weapons that the Small Arms Serialization Program will not accept because they are foreign, have nonnumeric serial numbers, and so forth. Questions concerning registry should be directed to the DOD Central Registry at USAMC Logistics Support Activity, ATTN: AMXLS–MN (National Channel), Redstone Arsenal, AL 35898–7466 (DSN 645–9972 or commercial (256) 955–9972).

[Enfield]

Steve,

Were you ever able to read the date in the stock cartouche? This could be a gun that was assembled by LSA using ex-LAC parts (albeit, parts that had been accepted by the Government - the Crowned Broad Arrow markings). I have a P61 Enfield like that, with mismatched dates of 1865/1866. An LSA-made gun would also be more likely to have a Birmingham-marked barrel (all of the LAC barrels I have seen had London proofs).

About bringing guns home from Afghanistan ... CENTCOM arbitrarily changed the rules last year, and the only guns you can ship home now through the military customs/postal service are muzzle loaders. No more Sniders or Martini-Henrys, no matter if they are dated prior to 1898 (no center-fire rifles allowed). But for all of these, they could be mailed as-is - no serial number was/is applied to those antiques that do not have one. I have seen examples of these stored in unit arms rooms back in the States, and they didn't have any added modern S/Ns or other markings.

Geoff Walden

[Steve Weems]

Geoff--I have looked at the date under strong magnification and there is no way to read the critical last two digits. There will allways be some questions about this rifle
but I am happy to have it and look forward to getting it to the shooting range.

Steve Weems

[R. McAuley 3014V]

DoD 5200.76M is currently under revision as is AR 190-11 (2006), so there will probably be numerous changes once the new DoD criteria comes out, and if Geoff is correct, perhaps the current registration process will be dropped. DoD Army regulations are like Federal laws, if they're not enforced, why have them on the books!

[Muley Gil]

"I'm sure the military authorities in Aghanistan gave you some other alternatives to shipping your "souvenirs" home had you wanted to keep them with you, eh? If you shipped them home, you done good."

Actually, I bought them at the Bagram bazaar in 2006 and carried them back to my police training center in the NE of Afghanistan. I had a local worker build me two wooden cases and in 2007, I shipped home two Sniders and two Martini-Henrys that I bought in the NE.

The real pain was the shipping. They had to be shipped Register Mail, which meant the boxes had to be wrapped in brown paper and sealed with brown paper tape on all of the seams.

[Southron Sr.]

Side Note about the London Armory Company. In 1863 James Burton, the Superintendent of Confederate Armories, made a "Buying Trip" to England with a long list of things the Confederate Ordnance Department needed to purchase-everything from arms production machinery to building supplies to complete the armory buildings standing half-finished in Macon, GA.

Burton's primary purpose for the trip was to order three complete sets of Enfield Rifle production machinery from the firm of Greenwood & Batley. The machinery was for the Macon Armory which, if it had been completed, would have been the largest small arms production complex in the world.

Why three sets of production machinery? The Confederacy was not planning on building three Enfield Rifle factories. The triple order was to insure that at least ONE complete set of production machinery made by Greenwood & Batley got thru the Blockade.

Apparently the directors of the London Armory Company heard rumors about the purpose of Burton's trip and made an offer to Confederate representatives in England to SELL the entire London Armory Company factory, "lock, stock & barrel" to the Confederacy!!! One of the motives that probably caused the directors to consider selling the factory was that in 1863, LACo's contracts with the British government to manufacture P-53 Enfields was coming to an end. This contract had been "bread and butter" for the company for the previous three years.

The Confederacy never purchased the LACo factory and while some of the Greenwood & Batley Enfield production machinery did make it thru the Blockade, the Macon Armory was never finished, nor P-53 production commenced before the end of the war.