Bullet casting question

[Robert Murphy]

New member just a beginner at casting minies. I have a Lee bottom pour and a good Lyman steel 575 mold. I set up in the garage with a fan and all the protective gear. I preheat the mold with a propane torch at low flame on a stand. Wait 20 minutes and start pouring at a steady pace. Refill the pot two or three times. My first cast was 300 balls my second was half that. Each pour had the same results. 25% 508 grains, 25% 504 grains and nearly equal 505, 506, 507. I size them, shoot the lighter ones at 100 yards and the heavy ones at 50 yards. My groups off the bench are good, not great and I break clays. Not as many as I would like. Is this your experience or am I not getting the best results from my pour?

[Lou Lou Lou]

Some folks prefer to use a dipper to get better fill out in big bullets.
many others use a bottom pour with no issue.
try a lead thermometer, might be a temperature issue.

[PoorJack]

I use a Lee 4-20 bottom pour pot. What I've found is best consistency is to run the pot wide open. Temp is verified at 875F by thermometer. Pour till about half empty. Recharge the pot. Wait till the temp is at 875F again. Resume casting. You will get some variation but the method I've described cuts it way down. What I've found on the variations- a grain either side of your target weight is insignificant when casting a 500g bullet. Basically it's a weigh difference of .2%. There are other things that will influence your group size far more than this will. Lube, sizing, powder, caps, all can really open up a group. Grins and giggles, here's a pic of a group I shot from my Parker Hale. This gun will always throw that first shot high and slightly left and the rest settle down. This group was shot with bullets I did not weigh and later checking revealed a difference of about .5%.
13457

[Muley Gil]

Many of us prefer to ladle pour Minie balls. Others prefer the bottom pour pots. I just upgraded from a Coleman stove to a large propane burner and a larger lead pot. The old Coleman served me well since 1969-70.

[John Bly]

5 grains variation is not bad at all with 500 grain bullets. I ladle pour and I like the lead hot. As others have said just shoot them, other things will cause worse accuracy issues than a 5 grain variation.

[Maillemaker]

I agree with the 875F - I also cast with a Lee 4-20 pot and run around 875F. Also agree with running the pot to half-empty and then refilling. The weight of the lead in the pot contributes to the flow rate coming out the bottom. Also I think the lead may run hotter as the pot empties (have not verified but based on the color of the bullets I am pretty sure this is happening).

I find bottom pour works well for non-hollow-base bullets. But for hollow-base bullets ("minie" balls), ladle pouring is the only way I have been able to get consistent results. I have tried holding the mold this way or that, drilling out the spout, different temperatures - I always end up with voids (hidden or not) if I bottom pour hollow-base bullets.

When I weighed bullets, I would cull anything outside +/- .5%. So for a 420 grain bullet, that would be +/- 2.1 grains. For a 500 grain bullet, that is +/- 2.5 grains.

I seldom weigh bullets anymore because the Moose Wilkinson drops so consistently there isn't much point.

The trick to consistent cast bullets is a consistent process. Make sure you preheat your mold (as you are doing). And as you cast, try and get a rhythm going and don't stop.

[Kurt Lacko 7862]

Each time you have refilled your pot are you using the same source of lead each time?

[Robert Murphy]

I use the best lead I can find. 99.9% from Chambers Gun Shop. I like my bottom pour pot. It fills quick and doesn't drip much. To my way of thinking the lead is coming right from the heat source and not being transferred to a ladle. But I can always use the open pot and dip it out.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Robert
why not try dipping a few to see if they come out better. Empirical testing

[Keith Williams]

New member just a beginner at casting minies. I have a Lee bottom pour and a good Lyman steel 575 mold. I set up in the garage with a fan and all the protective gear. I preheat the mold with a propane torch at low flame on a stand. Wait 20 minutes and start pouring at a steady pace. Refill the pot two or three times. My first cast was 300 balls my second was half that. Each pour had the same results. 25% 508 grains, 25% 504 grains and nearly equal 505, 506, 507. I size them, shoot the lighter ones at 100 yards and the heavy ones at 50 yards. My groups off the bench are good, not great and I break clays. Not as many as I would like. Is this your experience or am I not getting the best results from my pour?

Hello Robert, also as a new member with old ties to muzzleloading...you have opened a Pandoras Box upon casting. I am still researching casting problems, lead, and mould heat problems, fluxing / not fluxing, tin adding...the s**t is incredible, and you can become overwhelmed while not truly deciding upon a road to take. Some shooters will tell you "Whatever way works the best." Which is a correct short answer, however, they do not tell you this could be an expensive road you're traveling on to get where you want to be. I joined this year; it has been a costly hobby to participate in so far, not to mention the time devoted to research elements for this adventurist fun. I joined this team because of old connections as well as knowing they are a friendly batch of guys. Moreover, I want and expect myself to help elevate the team standings, and I have crashed course the research since March...and "wow," there has been a lot of research done since then.

I chose the thick base Minie at 530 grains. A Lyman mould as well as, buying a new Lyman Big Dipper lead pot. Lee bottom pour pots have a bad reputation of leaking, RCBS pour pots have a great reputation on overall constant heat and pour. I am eliminating crap-ass Lyman products from my life; I am buying a custom mould of the same bullet...just eliminating that junk company. Here is where others chime in saying their equipment has been excellent over the last 30-40 years. Wait till they buy new...I am contemplating on going old school...Coleman and a large tank. I had less trouble then, as I saved upon casting time and rejects. The RCBS pot is my second choice to buy...I have not pulled the trigger on gas or electric yet. As for that mould, it would not produce anything close to 530 grains as it was supposed to...so far, between 512 and 524 grains. Needless to say, it hit the trashcan at a high rate of speed...and yes, I worked on it, realigning, cleaning, deburring, and re-venting. The total combination of pot and mould has gone bye-bye! For value moulds, Lee has increased their quality as they work well.

The big Minie mould I am ordering is $250, again...some repliers will say that's a waste of money for a mould...I know, precision is better than mass production...as Lyman has demonstrated their poor-quality control over the last twenty plus years while Lee has improved their products. With a Hoyt lining, I will be entering individuals next year.

Now, your best choice between 512 and 524 is to shoot the medium of 518, you could use 517 and 519 without changing your set up on sights and powder loads. I am trying to cut the process tighter which would save time on casting, loading, sighting, and range time. If you have your own range, you could assimilate a record of your bullet grains and adjust powder to improve those bullet performances. That is time consuming.

As for, shooting the lighter ones at a hundred...I would reverse the process. The heavier bullets will travel off course less in flight compared to lighter ones. Heavier bullets move less than light ones, especially amid a breeze and wind.

You can buy a single electric burner (hotplate) from Wally-world to preheat your mould for $14...just sit it on. Do you soot the interior of the mould with the torch...this can cause problems with weight, imperfections, and bullet drops. Mould heat, lead heat, and impurities within the lead will also give you different grain readings. Since you have a pour pot...are you skimming the top of dross off (debris) and fluxing? Finally, buy a stick-in thermometer or laser so you can blast the mould temp as well as, melted lead within the pot...always double check.

Originally, did you measure the lands and groves too see if you bought a proper mould? I expect you have purchased proper sizing die(s). Did you clean the mould and pot with acetone, Walmart brand brake cleaner, or alcohol first to get rid of the manufacturing oils. Have you tried fluxing the lead? Are you buying pure lead ingots or are you buying lead (like me) from a scrap yard?

As I said, there is no simple answer to pouring bullets (buy them premade online) as there are many facets and opinions. I believe in research, reading, and for sure...ask senior skirmishers, since they have been around for 30-40-50 years and know the fads and b.s. stories. I will mention, when you rare researching try to find articles upon soft lead bullet making, you can read about hard lead and cross compare what they are accomplishing however, some developments may not work.

From one new member to another, good luck.

I hope my two Chinese yuan helped you down a road.

Keith A. Williams
15th VA Reg Vol Cav

[Keith Williams]

I use a Lee 4-20 bottom pour pot. What I've found is best consistency is to run the pot wide open. Temp is verified at 875F by thermometer. Pour till about half empty. Recharge the pot. Wait till the temp is at 875F again. Resume casting. You will get some variation but the method I've described cuts it way down. What I've found on the variations- a grain either side of your target weight is insignificant when casting a 500g bullet. Basically it's a weigh difference of .2%. There are other things that will influence your group size far more than this will. Lube, sizing, powder, caps, all can really open up a group. Grins and giggles, here's a pic of a group I shot from my Parker Hale. This gun will always throw that first shot high and slightly left and the rest settle down. This group was shot with bullets I did not weigh and later checking revealed a difference of about .5%.
13457

Very interesting PoorJack, my Colt 3 band Signature Series rifle does the same. About 4" high centered...then drops down. I have to remember to use 6 o'clock hold on the first volley. I believe this occurs when super cleaning is involved for storage, I tried to clean less after events to drop the rounds down.

Keith A. Williams
15th VA Reg Vol Cav

[Robert Murphy]

Thanks Keith. So with all the less than perfect equipment and techniques involved I strive for consistency. Weigh the powder, weigh the minies, size the minies, does not change weight, and use the same 50/50 beeswax and Crisco. With that combo I can shoot a 2? group at 50yards and 4? at 100 from the bench. Will that break a tile-block-clay? Yes. Can I do that on the Skirmish line? That?s were my efforts go now.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

New member just a beginner at casting minies. I have a Lee bottom pour and a good Lyman steel 575 mold. I set up in the garage with a fan and all the protective gear. I preheat the mold with a propane torch at low flame on a stand. Wait 20 minutes and start pouring at a steady pace. Refill the pot two or three times. My first cast was 300 balls my second was half that. Each pour had the same results. 25% 508 grains, 25% 504 grains and nearly equal 505, 506, 507. I size them, shoot the lighter ones at 100 yards and the heavy ones at 50 yards. My groups off the bench are good, not great and I break clays. Not as many as I would like. Is this your experience or am I not getting the best results from my pour?

Rob - my suggestions:

Bottom pour vs ladle doesn?t matter.

Weighing minies or any skirmish projectiles is NOT necessary - others will argue otherwise?. Put into perspective, youre lobbing a +500 grain hunk of lead btwn 150 or 300 feet. Four grains in bullet weight will not make any noticeable difference IF your load works with your rifle, your sights are true and you are ALWAYS adhering to the basic fundamentals of marksmanship.

ALWAYS consistency is key!

For muzzle loaders, pure lead, NOT back stop lead is needed.

Hot lead, get a lead thermometer if you don?t have one.

After your cast bullets cool down, visually inspect every one. Again weighing is not needed, but clefts or deformed skirts or trapped air bubbles leaving visible voids can hurt accuracy. ANY blemish or deformity goes back into the recast pile. ANY dropped balls are instantly rejects and are to be melted down and recast.

Do NOT store your cast minies in piles in containers. The skirts of pure lead balls can and will get deformed, hurting accuracy. I store mine in .50 cal ammo cans. Nose up, shoulder to shoulder in a layers, separated by cut outs from thin press wood sheets. Yes time consuming, but you can indefinitely store your bullets with no chance of damaging them, esp their skirts.

Casting in most instances is more about technique, esp in the pouring of lead into the mold. I prefer to pour into a mold held at a slight cant so as to allow the air inside to escape as molten lead is introduced.

Hope this offers some food for thought.

After that, PROPER bullet sizing, fresh lube and a sufficient powder charge all are vital in ensuring your rifle was exactly what it needs to hit the mark.

Last note, changing gears a bit - shooting off a bench will prove to you that your piece and load are capable of grouping. Once that is known, you need to sight her in via off hand. Your stock wield, positioning etc is obviously going to be wildly different between the two shooting stances. Using your preferred hold or sight picture - center of mass, or six o?clock typically, shoot nice definitive groups on paper at 50 and 100. KEEP your paper targets and use them in getting your peeps drilled accordingly by someone who is familiar in this exacting work.

Break a leg!

[Maillemaker]

There was an article reprint in The Skirmsh Line maybe a year or so ago where the guy stated the amount of difference in bullet drop at 100 yards between bullets of not much difference in weight. It was only a few grains. I think it was a Dave Francis (sp?) article.

[Keith Williams]

Many of us prefer to ladle pour Minie balls. Others prefer the bottom pour pots. I just upgraded from a Coleman stove to a large propane burner and a larger lead pot. The old Coleman served me well since 1969-70.

Hello Gil, I read your response to Robert Murphy. I am also contemplating the move to using a Carolina Cooker Double Burner Cast Iron Stove with a large tank. Cast iron pots can be ordered online as well as purchased from Wally-world. Have you noticed bullet improvements or additional problems switching to this system? I agree with you, the old Coleman and gas days seemed easier then...As I stated in my response to Robert's thread, I just trashed my new Lyman Big Dipper j**ka** pot which I bought in March. Amazingly, the Carolina Cooker is cheaper than a new Coleman camping stove.

Please respond, I am interested in your opinion.

Thanks,

Keith A. Williams
15th VA Reg Vol Cav

[Muley Gil]

Hello Gil, I read your response to Robert Murphy. I am also contemplating the move to using a Carolina Cooker Double Burner Cast Iron Stove with a large tank. Cast iron pots can be ordered online as well as purchased from Wally-world. Have you noticed bullet improvements or additional problems switching to this system? I agree with you, the old Coleman and gas days seemed easier then...As I stated in my response to Robert's thread, I just trashed my new Lyman Big Dipper j**ka** pot which I bought in March. Amazingly, the Carolina Cooker is cheaper than a new Coleman camping stove.

Please respond, I am interested in your opinion.

Thanks,

Keith A. Williams
15th VA Reg Vol Cav

The large burner heats and maintains the lead temperature better than my old Coleman stove. I bought my cast iron pot at a yard sale. The hotter temp gives me less rejects.

[Keith Williams]

Thanks Keith. So with all the less than perfect equipment and techniques involved I strive for consistency. Weigh the powder, weigh the minies, size the minies, does not change weight, and use the same 50/50 beeswax and Crisco. With that combo I can shoot a 2? group at 50yards and 4? at 100 from the bench. Will that break a tile-block-clay? Yes. Can I do that on the Skirmish line? That?s were my efforts go now.

Congratulations Robert, it looks like you are on a successful road...I wish you the best on bringing it to the line. Remember to control your breathe.

Good luck and have fun slinging lead on target.

Keith A. Williams
15th VA Reg Vol Cav

[Keith Williams]

The large burner heats and maintains the lead temperature better than my old Coleman stove. I bought my cast iron pot at a yard sale. The hotter temp gives me less rejects.

Roger that Gil, I am making that jump here shortly.

Take care,

Keith A. Williams
15th VA Reg Vol Cav