Help identifiying manufacture of reproduction Sharps

[Flatlander35]

Good morning,

I picked up a Sharps saddle ring carbine for a steal, but cannot for the life of me figure out who made the thing. There are not a lot of markings at all. Just S.C. Robinson Arms Company, Richmond, VA, 1862 on the reciever, with the same and .54 caliber, use black powder only on the barrel. There is one S stamped on the underside of the reciever, and serial numbers are in various places. Thats it.

The serial number is within the extremely low 300's. I'm sure it was made in Italy somewhere but even with the stock off I cannot locate anything.

Any help with this is greatly appreciated.

[hawkeye2]

An enigma, if it were made in Italy it should (required by law) have proof marks and a date code. I see no signs that it's been defarbed or refinished.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Shiloh made them.

[Steve Weems]

Shiloh made them.

I believe Jim is correct. As I recall Shiloh made about 300 of the Richmonds back in the Farmingdale days? Steve

[John Bly]

I know Shiloh made some many years ago and this may be one of them. The quality looks too good to be an off brand foreign made one and the absence of proof marks that are required in European countries says it was not made in Europe.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

I owned one of them. Same gun.

[bobanderson]

I guess that makes it a better deal than you thought it was. Congrats.

[geezmo]

According to the NSSA Approved arms list, Section 5 Carbines, the 1862 Robinson/Richmond Sharps by Shiloh is marked with that S on the bottom of the frame. Doesn?t mention any other Shiloh marks. Congratulations on a great score.

[Flatlander35]

Thanks for the help all! Better than I expected. I've never messed with a Sharps before, but when watching videos of disassembly and cleaning of the 1859's and 1863's it seems people are having no trouble at all removing the breech block face plate. Mine seemed like it was nearly welded in.. It took a long soak in Kroil, a rubber mallet, some choice words, and some persuasion but I finally managed to free it. After cleaning up what seemed to be dried grease I still had to use the rubber mallet to get it back into place or I couldn't insert the block into the gun. Are there any tips or tricks that can help with this? Would an O-Ring conversion make maintenance simpler? Thanks again for the help.

[bobanderson]

Are there any tips or tricks that can help with this? Would an O-Ring conversion make maintenance simpler? Thanks again for the help.
What I like about the Sharps is its the only breech loading carbine that you don't have to remove a spent shell before you load it.
If you're going to compete with it, call Larry Flees at 231-342-0821 or email him at ljflees@hotmail.com.
The o ring conversion lets you shoot all day without getting tied up with fouling and you'll get you money back if you sell it.

[Carolina Reb]

Don't mean to hijack here, but I'm going to put in a plug for one of my favorite carbines. Merrill's do not leave a cartridge behind either, and if you can find one with a good bore they are are as accurate as a Sharps.

[Flatlander35]

I don't think you are hijacking at all. Merrills are super neat, but way out of my price range. I'm probably derailing it a bit, but after disassembling this one a few times and thinking about the routine of cleaning after firing, I am leaning heavily towards trading this and another defarbed musket towards either something like a Smith carbine or a musket that is set up and ready to go with a taller/easier to use sight. No clue what this thing is worth but it should get me part way there hopefully.

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

Before you take the carbine to Larry Flees for an O-ring job, shoot it the way it is. I've been shooting a Farmingdale Shiloh carbine for 40+ years and never had any need for O-rings. My breechblock face plate is also tight, even after 40+ years. I take it out only occasionally to find my routine cleaning is adequate. After scraping out the crud that accumulates in the breech cavity, I soak my breechblock in hot water without taking the face plate off. After drying I'll spray with WD-40 to displace any residual moisture. Be sure to remove the clean-out screw on the side of the breechblock as well as the nipple. The flash channel always needs a good cleaning with a pipe cleaner.

Jim Burgess, 15th Conn. Vol. Inf.

[geezmo]

I agree with Jim Burgess. That carbine is worth more than you realize. I would keep it, if it were mine, and shoot it.

[Carolina Reb]

I'll third that. With a little load development, that Sharps will probably break a lot of targets. I put up the Merrill after 20 years skirmishing with it, mostly because I'm afraid I'll wear it out, and have been shooting a Sharps. Very happy with it!

[Flatlander35]

I think I'm going to keep it now that I have pondered for a while. I bought it thinking it was Italian, and it was priced at well below what even that was, but the bore is literally band new so I couldn't say no. I've been concerned with taking it down to clean after firing. There are so many more places for fouling to get into and a full removal of the lock, stock, breech block, etc would take me literally hours to do. That is the main reason why I have been reading up on the o ring conversions. They seem to have the universal benefit of keeping the fouling in the breech/barrel area so I wouldn't have to completely remove the lock every single time I fire it. Right now I just have a defarbed Miroku made 1863 3 bander, and cleaning that is a breeze, even with removing the lock. My problem with the 63 is the sights, I just can't use them well so it isn't very enjoyable. These sights are much better. If I can get this to shoot half decent accuracy wise, keep it shooting for 30-60 rounds without needing a wipe down, and cleaning is not hours long I will be overjoyed.

One thing I am confused on with these are load development. With regular muskets its easy for me to understand. Pour the powder charge, seat the bullet, and go. With these, paper cartridge or loose powder, I cannot comprehend having different powder charges. If the chamber is a set length and the bullet is seated into the chamber as it should be, how can you load less or more powder per round while filling up the rest of the space? Cornmeal, cream of wheat, or do you mess with thickness of the paper cartridge to fill the space? Sorry for all the questions, this is all very new. I'm going to slug the bore tomorrow if I can and see what bullet mold to get.

[Muley Gil]

I don't shoot a Sharps, but I have read of many using cream of wheat as a filler.

[geezmo]

It shouldn?t take you hours to clean that carbine and you will never fill that entire chamber with loose powder. If you use a cartridge the chamber length is key. You want the back of the cartridge at the face of the breech block. If your accuracy load doesn?t fill that cartridge length you can then use a filler. I?m not sure what all you researched but start again. Type Hahn cartridge tubes in the search box and go. Also go to shilohrifle.com scroll to the bottom of the first page and click on shiloh forums, then scroll down to 1863 support/shooting. Good luck.

[Carolina Reb]

Go over to http://hahnmachineworks.com/html/PaperCartridge.html This will get you started on load development. Use the grease he recommends on the breech, breechblock and gas plate. Alternatively, you can use Mobile 1 synthetic grease. Charlie's cartridge tubes work great. My personal favorite load is 35 gr. of Swiss 1.5f with the old NEI Sharps bullet, and in spite of Charlie not recommending it, I do use cream of wheat filler. Works for me. With this load and the sight leaf down it's dead on at 50. With the sight flipped up it's dead on at 100.

For cleaning, remove the block and gas plate then clean everything you can reach. At the end of the season, pull the forestock and lock and clean those. Coat the metal parts with a good gun oil when you put it back together. Modern caps are non-corrosive, and black powder isn't particularly corrosive unless humidity is high. What little fouling gets in the lock and under the stock won't cause problems as long as you don't leave it forever.

Stop by Charlie's booth at the national. He will get you going. Also, talk to Sharps shooters on the line. Most are very happy to bend your ear about their favorite carbine.

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

I do not roll paper cartridges or Charlie's tubes in my Sharps but if you want to use a reduced charge with filler you would need to go that route. I use 50 grains of loose FFg behind the Lyman ringtail bullet which does not completely fill the chamber. Fouling does not get into the lock and I only remove it once a year to regrease. You should routinely clean off the nose of the hammer with a toothbrush and water while holding the gun inverted to prevent water from getting into the lock. I do remove the forearm and clean around the lever spring. As stated before, cleaning the vent in the breechblock is critical but I do not need to remove the breechblock faceplate on a routine basis after soaking it in water, drying and applying WD-40. I'm very anal about cleaning my guns but I can get my Sharps clean in less than an hour.

Jim Burgess, 15th CVI

[Flatlander35]

Thanks to all for the help! I have learned a tremendous amount already. Those videos from Duelists Den really are terrific too. After doing tons of research I'll be ordering a Eras Gone Richmond mold shortly along with some more pure lead and hopefully within a few weeks I will be well on my way with learning how to roll my own cartridges semi decently.

[Maillemaker]

One thing I am confused on with these are load development. With regular muskets its easy for me to understand. Pour the powder charge, seat the bullet, and go. With these, paper cartridge or loose powder, I cannot comprehend having different powder charges. If the chamber is a set length and the bullet is seated into the chamber as it should be, how can you load less or more powder per round while filling up the rest of the space? Cornmeal, cream of wheat, or do you mess with thickness of the paper cartridge to fill the space? Sorry for all the questions, this is all very new. I'm going to slug the bore tomorrow if I can and see what bullet mold to get.

Charlie Hahn on his web site said he does not recommend filler. Yes, I am aware of the "no air gaps" rule with black powder but the Sharps is different in a couple of ways. First, the breech and breech end of the Sharps barrel is massively strong. Second, it is impossible not to have an air gap when loading a sharps even with a chamber full of powder due to the cavity in the breech block face.

When using Hahn tubes, I originally punched out .5" diameter discs from cereal boxes. I would put my powder in the tube, then press the disk down on top of the powder, and then use a q-tip with the bushy end cut off to swirl some white glue around the perimeter of the disk to secure the disk in place. This keeps all the powder at the back end of the cartridge to be ignited by the cap blast.

Lately I have switched to 1/2" thick, .460" diameter dry fiber wads as with my 42 grains of 3F in my Pedersoli Sharps there is just enough room for the wad before the bullet - the wad completely fills the air space and requires no glue so it's less hassle to just pop in the wad.

If you use a bullet like the Eras Gone Richmond Sharps you will have to roll your own. I find a 13mm punch (as I recall) worked well for making discs to keep the powder at the rear as above.

I agree that I would hold off on doing the Larry Flees breech block job until you find out if it leaks gas or not. The Shiloh guns should not leak gas I am told.

I'm waiting for my Shiloh Sharps to come in.

Steve