Smith carbine history

[slimjim]

I acquired a a civil war carbine through a family estate. I would like more information on the when it was manufactured and where it was sent with the serial being S/N 1889. I assume it is a artillery rifle being of the shoulder strap swivels being on the stock and forearm ring. It shows a lot of use just by the tell tale signs of the miner pitting, opens easy although its strong enough to snap a cap and sound enough to shoot just a pinch of play on hinge just miner corrosion in the groves, lands look good land measure out at .500 to .502 and the grooves measure out at .510. Please shine your expertise on this if you will. Also are there any good reference books on the smith that may track the S/N's and history for where it was assigned.
Thanks
Jim..
jimshiriki@hotmail.com

[Maillemaker]

The idea of an "artillery" model vs. "cavalry" model is a modern thing, as I understand it. You have a Type I. The Type II had the saddle ring on the side of the receiver.

Mike Santerelli has a good book on the Smith Carbine.

https://www.amazon.com/Smith-Carbine-Civil-War/dp/0578559269

Steve

[slimjim]

Thank you for the information Steve. and the direction to the mike Santerelli book.

Jim.

[John Westenberger]

You probably will not find much as to date of manufacture and units which it was assigned. It's incredibly hard to track Smiths, as they have multiple manufacturers with overlapping serial numbers. Date of manufacture you can probably narrow down to a year or two range, especially if you have multiple cartouches still visible.

As far as shooting smiths goes. They are well regarded guns for our uses. They load fast, are reliable, and plenty accurate. I've never measured or slugged my bore, I actually borrowed a few rounds off of Mike sized at .518, and they shot well enough to develop a load off of. I've had pretty incredible success with my Smith, and have no plans to change it out for anything in the coming decades.

I would also recommend Mike's book. He's a fellow skirmisher (I shoot with him on the 1st PA Cav.), and a great resource for all things Smith. He recently released a new edition of his book. You can contact him at 1stpacavalry@gmail.com. The new edition has a whole load more amazing information, and many first hand documents he's scrounged up over the years. He can get you a copy of the book, and I can almost guarantee for a cheaper price than the amazon link.

[slimjim]

Thank you John for information. I've come to the conclusion that finding much on the carbine is going to proof difficult. With the low S/N and the appearance, it looks untouched although the out side surface does show a lot of exposer I know that when was in the family it was there a long time. Although I will have to replace two parts do to the fact they were missing the front sight blade and the rear sight spring and attach screw. I found the hinge bolt is unmovable been putting Kroil oil on them and letting it soak but no luck. Do you know of any good penetrating oil that may increase the chances to get them to let go?

I have bought a mold from ERA'S gone in 50 caliber dropping at .518 its a very nice looking bullet. I grubbed through my lube sizing stuff and found a .513/.514 size and pushed some through took both sizes to range in another Smith the untouched .518's and the sized and all shot in a eight inch group 9" high an to the left about 2.5"s at a 100 yds. but that is understandable because the rifle I rifle I used has original sights The other civil war rifles and carbines I have done the same. I removed the front sight blades on them and retained them in the safe and replaced with substitutes and filed till in zero area,8" or so dinner plate approx. at a100 yds. Up here in SD where I live Skirmishing clubs are about none existent. But I use them deer hunting. Although I sight in at a 100yds most of everything I shoot are 75 yds. or less.

I reference to Mikes books, I'm kind of holding out till after Christmas because I put and order in at house for Christmas if it doesn't pan out then Ill order myself. But I will look into the second Edition from Mike though. Do you Know the name of the second Edition? Thanks for the web sight.
Again thanks for the info.
Jim.

[Hal]

Jim,

A lot of times heat will make a screw turn loose better than penetrants. Hair dryer or heat gun may be enough. I've used propane, but was judicious with the amount of heat I've used. I wouldn't use enough to make the metal change color. The Smith pivot screw is only threaded on the right hand end, so it's probably not seized up anywhere but there. The idea is not to try to remove the screw while it's still hot thinking that the hole is now larger than the screw. The idea is that the heat will break the bonds of the crud that is holding it together as the two pieces expand at different rates. Heat it and let it cool before trying to take it apart. I've had screws be only finger tight after using this method.

Another trick I've used to remove nipples from revolver cylinders is to chuck the nipple wrench in a drill press and put the cylinder into a drill vise with soft jaws (I used wood). Then turn the chuck with a strap wrench while putting down pressure on the wrench with the drill press. This keeps the wrench from rounding off and riding up the nipple. The same could be done with a screw driver. The blade needs to fit the slot properly. Use a parallel sided gunsmithing screwdriver bit that fills the slot widthwise as well as lengthwise, not a cheap tool kit screwdriver with a tapered wedge shaped tip. Alternately loosening and tightening in minuscule amounts instead of just loosening helps break loose the crud that is holding it together.

[JW 5875V]

Jim,

A lot of times heat will make a screw turn loose better than penetrants. Hair dryer or heat gun may be enough. I've used propane, but was judicious with the amount of heat I've used. I wouldn't use enough to make the metal change color. The Smith pivot screw is only threaded on the right hand end, so it's probably not seized up anywhere but there. The idea is not to try to remove the screw while it's still hot thinking that the hole is now larger than the screw. The idea is that the heat will break the bonds of the crud that is holding it together as the two pieces expand at different rates. Heat it and let it cool before trying to take it apart. I've had screws be only finger tight after using this method.

Another trick I've used to remove nipples from revolver cylinders is to chuck the nipple wrench in a drill press and put the cylinder into a drill vise with soft jaws (I used wood). Then turn the chuck with a strap wrench while putting down pressure on the wrench with the drill press. This keeps the wrench from rounding off and riding up the nipple. The same could be done with a screw driver. The blade needs to fit the slot properly. Use a parallel sided gunsmithing screwdriver bit that fills the slot widthwise as well as lengthwise, not a cheap tool kit screwdriver with a tapered wedge shaped tip. Alternately loosening and tightening in minuscule amounts instead of just loosening helps break loose the crud that is holding it together.

Another trick is to heat threaded side enough for candle wax to
melt into the thread. I use this trick that was taught to me from
a wise old machinist. A birth day candle will suffice.


Jim Whitehouse Sr. 5875V
Allegheny City Guards

[slimjim]

HI Jim
By reading your post I can see you have addressed corroded screw and bolt problems. I put a bit of heat on the nipple with a small soldering pin torch there handy for keeping the heat concentrated in a small area and luckily had that come loose leaving good threads on both. I used a lot of soak with Kroil oil before. The one that puzzles me is the clean out screw. For as small as it is, one would think that it would come out the easiest but it wont budge. I'm sure these screws and hinge bolts haven't been out for fifty or more years and probably hasn't been shot for that long or longer. I'm going to try that wax method you talked about. what heck nothing to loose.
If the wax works for me Ill let you know.
Thanks Jim for your time.
Jim Helsper.

[Carolina Reb]

The problem with the cleanout screws is that the old mercury caps were extremely corrosive. The threads at the barrel end got the worst of it and tend to be pretty badly rusted in. Unless you really need to get it out, it might be better to just leave that one in there. If you do get it out, you may have to make a new one.

[John Westenberger]

The problem with the cleanout screws is that the old mercury caps were extremely corrosive. The threads at the barrel end got the worst of it and tend to be pretty badly rusted in. Unless you really need to get it out, it might be better to just leave that one in there. If you do get it out, you may have to make a new one.

I've never pulled mine out, and haven't run into trouble yet. The flash channel on these is very forgiving. I use a large syringe full of water with a small piece of hose to hook up to the nipple. Blow water through a few times, then dry and hit with some oil. Always cleans up well.

[slimjim]

Thank you both for the advise and I'm going to take it. Every thing is working as it should. So the old adage goes, If it's not broke don't fix it, Right? I have a phobia about clean out I purchased a Burnside once and the channel was plugged hard but luckily the clean out screw come out and was able to clear it by eliminating a few turns with the thin wire I used. A question to john in regards to clean up I get the flush and clean with hot water but I was always afraid of oil in the flash channel. Wont this impede your ignition? I always wash out with hot water and blow dry and oil everything but always reluctant on oil through the nipple. If done would firing a couple of caps dry it before loading the next time used? or isn't that needed?
Thanks again
Jim

[John Westenberger]

Thank you both for the advise and I'm going to take it. Every thing is working as it should. So the old adage goes, If it's not broke don't fix it, Right? I have a phobia about clean out I purchased a Burnside once and the channel was plugged hard but luckily the clean out screw come out and was able to clear it by eliminating a few turns with the thin wire I used. A question to john in regards to clean up I get the flush and clean with hot water but I was always afraid of oil in the flash channel. Wont this impede your ignition? I always wash out with hot water and blow dry and oil everything but always reluctant on oil through the nipple. If done would firing a couple of caps dry it before loading the next time used? or isn't that needed?
Thanks again
Jim

You should always snap a few caps before firing live rounds. A cap or two blows all the oil out.

[Muley Gil]

I store my muzzleloaders muzzle down in the safe. Any excess oil should drain out. As noted, always fire a few caps to dry out the barrel.

[ms3635v]

I wanted to let everyone who may be interested in my book know, that there is an expanded first edition available. This expanded edition is 100 pages longer than the first edition and has more information and photos thanks to many persons who shared information with me. The book is $21.00 which includes postage. You can contact me through private message or email at mail to:mike.santarelli899@gmail.com. I accept PayPal or personal check.

[CAGerringer]

Mike,
I want one. Just sent you an email.
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[slimjim]

Thanks Mike I just sent you an email with message and I want a copy also.

Thanks Jim H

[slimjim]

A check is in the mail Mike for a copy.
Jim H.