Lorenz and the Iron Brigade

[JimW]

I seem to remember someone mentioning that at least one regiment of the Iron Brigade was armed with the Lorenz? It was also mentioned that some of the weapons were "painted black". Any truth to this?

[Robt. Propst]

Civilwartalk.com has a thread Rifles Used By the Iron Brigade that refers to Lorenz muskets in some detail. I just googled Rifles Used by the Iron Brigade and that was one of the locations that popped up. Enjoy!

[Joe Coyle]

I seem to remember someone mentioning that at least one regiment of the Iron Brigade was armed with the Lorenz? It was also mentioned that some of the weapons were "painted black". Any truth to this?
2nd Wisconsin had them in .54 caliber and the 7th Wisconsin had them modified to .58 caliber

[Don Dixon]

The 2nd Wisconsin carried .547 caliber Muster 1854 rifle muskets through mid-1863. The Quarterly Ordnance Reports indicate that they were Type I weapons, but there are photographs of 2nd Wisconsin soldiers carrying Type IIs. There is no mention in the historiography of the stocks of the 2nd's weapons being finished dark.

The 7th Wisconsin was initially issued .547 caliber Muster 1854, Type I, rifle muskets with the stock finished black. Contrary to the soldiers' expectations, the finish didn't hold up well in service and the officers wanted the men to pay $.10 each to have to stocks refinished, which created considerable discontent in the regiment. By mid-1863 the 7th carried .58 caliber Muster 1854, Type II, rifle muskets.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[JimW]

Thank you for the information

[JimW]

The 2nd Wisconsin carried .547 caliber Muster 1854 rifle muskets through mid-1863. The Quarterly Ordnance Reports indicate that they were Type I weapons, but there are photographs of 2nd Wisconsin soldiers carrying Type IIs. There is no mention in the historiography of the stocks of the 2nd's weapons being finished dark.

The 7th Wisconsin was initially issued .547 caliber Muster 1854, Type I, rifle muskets with the stock finished black. Contrary to the soldiers' expectations, the finish didn't hold up well in service and the officers wanted the men to pay $.10 each to have to stocks refinished, which created considerable discontent in the regiment. By mid-1863 the 7th carried .58 caliber Muster 1854, Type II, rifle muskets.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V


When are you going to write a book on the Lorenz? We need one!

[Don Dixon]

I have been. Its tentatively entitled Austrian Rifles in the American Civil War: A Case Study in the Acquisition and Use of a Foreign Weapons System by the Federal and Confederate Armies. I'm cleaning up the final draft and closing a few loose ends and then it will be time to look for a publisher. Since the project is very heavily footnoted, it almost has to be an academic house. Its a gun book in the sense that one needs to discuss the guns or nothing else makes sense. But, it also discusses why the armies required foreign weapons, the chain of supply from the Austrian Army to the end user, the vendors involved in the trade, Confederate and Federal espionage and counter-espionage operations in Europe, the blockade running trade, and the incredible corruption of the vendors and Federal and Confederate government officials involved in the trade. As you peel the layers of the onion off, its like something out of Ian Fleming. Volume II discusses the status of the Northern state military establishments on 1 January 1861 and a unit by unit discussion of the Federal Army's use of its Austrian weapons; time frame of a unit's service, when/model/how many Austrian weapons it carried, weapons training [generally none], and the soldiers' opinions regarding their Austrian arms. I can document well over 600 Federal first-line combat units at the regimental/battalion level armed with some number of Austrian weapons at some time during the war. Volume III provides similar information for the Southern states and Confederate Army. Most of what his been written in English to this point about the Austrian arms is at best "gun show wisdom," and the book flies in the face of most of what has been accepted "wisdom" regarding Austrian arms.

Hope the moderators will not regard this as an advertisement.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Maillemaker]

Can't wait to buy a copy!

Steve

[geezmo]

Don,

I?m in for a set also, assuming it happens in my lifetime. I?m 72 but in good health for now, so I hope to see it.

The first Civil War firearm I ever purchased with my own money was a Lorenz, with bayonet, in almost unused condition for $60.00. It was 1964 and I was 14. I bought it from Jim Hogan at Francis Bannerman?s. By that time they had relocated to Blue Point on Long Island. I was thrilled. We were at the height of the Centennial and I had recently started attending gun shows. I couldn?t wait for the next show to show it off. The reception it got was troublesome. I was told nobody wanted those cheap European guns, the Enfield pattern firearms being about the only exception. I immediately panicked and tried to sell it to get my money back. Finally after almost a year of trying some guy offered me $55.00 and I sold it to him. I was glad I only lost $5.00 on what I was led to believe was a bad deal. But, what do you know when you are 14? I sure wish I had that gun back.

Over the years I?ve own several Lorenz rifles. The only one currently is a fine condition .58 caliber Federal import id?d to a soldier in the 98th N.Y.V.I.

Anyway, count be in.

Barry Selzner

[Don Dixon]

Barry,

Some information on the 98th New York follows. I'm curious about the attribution of your rifle. If you have documentation, a photograph of the soldier with the rifle, or there is something distinctive about it such as a stock carving I would like to correspond with you further.

Regards,
Don

98th Infantry ("The Malone and Lyons Regiment," "The Wayne County Regiment," and "Franklin's Own"): The 98th was organized at Malone and Lyons, New York, between 25 January and 8 February 1862 and was mustered out of service on 31 August 1865. On 6 March 1862, in New York City, the Commissary General issued the 98th 895 .55 caliber Austrian rifle muskets and 15,000 .58 [sic.] caliber expanding ball cartridges. The regiment also received 895 screwdrivers, but only 62 worms and 62 ball screws for its rifles. With the issue of their weapons, the troops of the 98th "then began to look like soldiers in earnest. The regimental historian recalled that "the Austrian rifle [was] a rough, serviceable, beech-stocked weapon of 56 [sic.] caliber, shorter and inferior to those made by the British government at Enfield." Since under Queen Victoria's embargo no Enfields manufactured by the British Army were sold to either the Federals or the Confederates, one wonders how the regimental historian would have had a basis for comparison. The 98th carried its Austrian rifle muskets until early 1864, when they were largely exchanged for Springfield rifle muskets. The Quarterly Ordnance Reports contain the following regarding the 98th:



Quarter
Weapon
Caliber
Number/Comment


3rd, 1862
Austrian Rifle
.54
451


4th, 1862
Muster 1854, Type I
.54 and .55
329 (10 companies reporting)


1st, 1863
Muster 1854, Type I
.54 and .55
408 (52 Stores in charge. 9 companies reporting)


2nd, 1863
Muster 1854, Type II
.54
430 (65 Stores in charge. 5 companies reporting)


3rd, 1863
Muster 1854, Type II
.58
358 (57 Stores in charge. 8 companies reporting)


4th, 1863
Muster 1854, Type II
.58
282 (3 Stores in charge. 7 companies reporting)


1st, 1864
Muster 1854, Type II
.58
347 (2 Stores in charge. 9 companies reporting)


2nd, 1864
Muster 1854, Type II
.58
6 (3 Stores in charge. 10 companies reporting)


3rd, 1864
Muster 1854, Type I
.54 and .55
3 (Stores in charge. 10 companies reporting)



Between March 1862 and the 4th quarter of 1862 the 98th was involved in the Siege of Yorktown; and the Battles of Williamsburg, Seven Pines, White Oak Swamp, and Malvern Hill. Between December 1862 and January 1863, the regiment was transferred to North Carolina and participated in operations in coastal North and South Carolina until October 1863. The regiment was then transferred back to Virginia, where it participated in the Battles of Drury's Bluff and Cold Harbor, and the Siege of Petersburg. (Dyer, III, 1443-4; Report of the Commissary General, 1863, 53; Kreutzer, Notes and Observations, 18 and 173-4; Clark, Military History, 559; RG156, E108, and M1281, NARA)

[geezmo]

Don,

Thanks much for the 98th info. Some of the basic stuff I had. The returns with types and quantities is neat. Mine is definitely a .58. A new style Minie sized to .579 will slide down the clean bore under it?s own weight.

Also, of slight interest I have the effects of a soldier in the 150th N.Y.V.I., which I also purchased in the 60s. They too were issued the Lorenz. Included with his stuff is a CDV of him in his early war N.Y. State uniform holding his type II Lorenz with the sling, fixed bayonet and long sight in the raised position.

You mention correspondence. What do you have in mind? PM, email, snail mail? Let me know by PM.

Thanks,
Barry

[CAGerringer]

I have been.
Hope the moderators will not regard this as an advertisement.
Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V


Don,
I don't care if the moderators think this is an advertisement or not. (It obviously wasn't.)
I DO CARE THAT MY NAME IS PUT ON THE WAITING LIST FOR YOUR BOOK!
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons